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What are you cooking / having cooked / eating today? [1 of 2]

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:22 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you may be right MD. i'd tend to agree with you
of course he is, and of course, you would. otherwise, you'd have an opinion of your own, and that's risky.

and what would you know about cooking JM that you can so boldly state that MD is right? canned, ha ha, excuse me, ha ha, chickpeas? DiPPheRRant DiPPheRRant canned chickpeas?

Kris wrote:Ganpath should be getting nervous, if this is his competition. Smile The chutney has triggered a palovian in me. Need to swing by the local dosa joint this weekend

ha ha. well ganpath has learnt a lot from my wife and vice versa. it's a surprise he has stuck around so long considering how skillful he is. i guess he feels happy being with us.


Last edited by Huzefa Kapasi on Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:24 am

Tracy Whitney wrote:we are supposed to eat dosais on the sly. not take and post pics of it. uff.

Jeez! It's dosas, trace, not dosais.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:27 am

kinnera wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:we are supposed to eat dosais on the sly. not take and post pics of it. uff.

Jeez! It's dosas, trace, not dosais.

LOL. in my first piece i ever contributed to sulekha, i had spelt dosa as "dosai" thinking i was conforming to some phonological purity of the south. VGR, who you might remember, edited it and changed it to "dosa." i understood why only much later. Smile

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:32 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
ha ha. well ganpath has learnt a lot from my wife and vice versa. it's a surprise he has stuck around so long considering how skillful he is. i guess he feels happy being with us.

If i ever settle down in India (I get tempted whenever I read MD's description of the dishes he savors frequently back in desh), I'm going to kidnap Ganpatram from you. Alternating between the restaurant food like the one merlow enjoys and ganpat's, life will surely be so good!

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:33 am

ganpatram -- huzzy's answer to anatole.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:36 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
kinnera wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:we are supposed to eat dosais on the sly. not take and post pics of it. uff.

Jeez! It's dosas, trace, not dosais.

LOL. in my first piece i ever contributed to sulekha, i had spelt dosa as "dosai" thinking i was conforming to some phonological purity of the south. VGR, who you might remember, edited it and changed it to "dosa." i understood why only much later. Smile


Really? lol! It's a consant resistance of the rest of the south indians to the conscious and irritating attempt of the tamilians to dominate them.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:42 am

kinnera wrote:
Really? lol! It's a consant resistance of the rest of the south indians to the conscious and irritating attempt of the tamilians to dominate them.

really? but even dosa is not the only way other southern indians say it. kannadigas say do-say which is closer to dosai than dosa.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:43 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:ganpatram -- huzzy's answer to anatole.

ha ha! Smile

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:02 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
Really? lol! It's a consant resistance of the rest of the south indians to the conscious and irritating attempt of the tamilians to dominate them.

really? but even dosa is not the only way other southern indians say it. kannadigas say do-say which is closer to dosai than dosa.

Really? VGR, the one that Huze metioned above is a kannadiga. I don't think any kannadiga wants to spell it as dosai. Dosai, vadai, adai....oh pls! Don't tamiliarize e'thing.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:06 pm

it's irrelevant how it's spelt. after all we are using english to spell indian sounds. i am quite certain kannadigas say do-say. let's page richard-hed and ask him.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's irrelevant how it's spelt. after all we are using english to spell indian sounds. i am quite certain kannadigas say do-say. let's page richard-hed and ask him.

You are arguing like rashmun now....twisting e'thing and trying to have e'one agree with you and ultimately establish the domination.

It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.

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Post by Jeremiah Mburuburu Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:23 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
kinnera wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:we are supposed to eat dosais on the sly. not take and post pics of it. uff.

Jeez! It's dosas, trace, not dosais.

LOL. in my first piece i ever contributed to sulekha, i had spelt dosa as "dosai" thinking i was conforming to some phonological purity of the south. VGR, who you might remember, edited it and changed it to "dosa." i understood why only much later. Smile
VGR constantly applied the vacuum northwards. he exhausted himself quoting urdu couplets, and proving that he was worthy of the company of northindians.

his writings on metaphysics were lethally boring. when he visited sulekha's chat, it was to "shoot" everyone there with a machine gun-like "daga-daga-daga-daga." the u.p. girl whose name started with an 'r' also did that. (i never understood that.) in short, he applied vacuum. period. no doubt, you admire him.

VGR grew up in jamshedpur, and attended iit-b. i think he was of thamizh brahmin descent, but i suspect he knew no thamizh.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:25 pm

when i ate in mtr, bangalore, the menu clearly said "masala dosa." i should have stepped up to to the owner and called him a fool.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:28 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:i think he was of thamizh brahmin descent, but i suspect he knew no thamizh.

you do a better job posting wrong answers on trivia. stick to it. ukraine my foot!

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:30 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:when i ate in mtr, bangalore, the menu clearly said "masala dosa." i should have stepped up to to the owner and called him a fool.

yeah! It's instant dosa mix, not dosai mix. Dosas, vadas, upma, uttapams, etc have their origins in Udipi, which is in Karnataka.


http://www.amazon.com/MTR-Dosa-Instant-7-04-Ounce-Pouches/dp/B000MIR7GK

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:32 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:VGR constantly applied the vacuum northwards. he exhausted himself quoting urdu couplets, and proving that he was worthy of the company of northindians.

his writings on metaphysics were lethally boring. when he visited sulekha's chat, it was to "shoot" everyone there with a machine gun-like "daga-daga-daga-daga." the u.p. girl whose name started with an 'r' also did that. (i never understood that.) in short, he applied vacuum. period. no doubt, you admire him.

VGR grew up in jamshedpur, and attended iit-b. i think he was of thamizh brahmin descent, but i suspect he knew no thamizh.



Is there anyone who you say good things about? so negative!

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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:36 pm

kinnera wrote:It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.
The two forms I have seen it spelled in Telugu are: dOSa దోశ, and dOse దోసె; the former is more common I think, and the latter a misspelling in Telugu. I think I saw it spelled in Kannada as dOSa ಡೌಶ -- not sure if they also use dOse ಡೌಸೇ. English does not have the S (శ, ಶ) sound as it is pronounced in Telugu and Kannada. So I think the transliteration dosa works better.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:47 pm

charvaka wrote:
kinnera wrote:It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.
The two forms I have seen it spelled in Telugu are: dOSa దోశ, and dOse దోసె; the former is more common I think, and the latter a misspelling in Telugu. I think I saw it spelled in Kannada as dOSa ಡೌಶ -- not sure if they also use dOse ಡೌಸೇ. English does not have the S (శ, ಶ) sound as it is pronounced in Telugu and Kannada. So I think the transliteration dosa works better.

ya, I agree with you Charu.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:51 pm

kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's irrelevant how it's spelt. after all we are using english to spell indian sounds. i am quite certain kannadigas say do-say. let's page richard-hed and ask him.

You are arguing like rashmun now....twisting e'thing and trying to have e'one agree with you and ultimately establish the domination.

It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.

i did nothing of the sort! i don't care if you agree with me or not. i'll always say it the way i've said it, which is dosai and you can say it the way you've said it. fine by me. the reason why i think kannadigas say do-say is because wiki lists several variations of spellings (and more importantly pronunciations), one of which is Dosé, i.e. do-say. tamilians don't say it that way and telugus clearly don't if one were to believe your loud protestations. then it must be the kannadigas or malayalis who say it that way. not sure how the malayalis say it, but the do-say fits with other kannadiga pronunciations, namely va-day for vadai and so on. it was a guess based on similar words.
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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but the do-say fits with other kannadiga pronunciations, namely va-day for vadai and so on. it was a guess based on similar words.
OK, leaving aside the transliteration: do Tamil people pronounce dosai to rhyme the last syllable with say or with pi? The Telugu pronunciation may sound to non-Telugu (and I am guessing non-Kannada) ears quite close to dOse (not a long sound like say, but a short e).
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's irrelevant how it's spelt. after all we are using english to spell indian sounds. i am quite certain kannadigas say do-say. let's page richard-hed and ask him.

You are arguing like rashmun now....twisting e'thing and trying to have e'one agree with you and ultimately establish the domination.

It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.

i did nothing of the sort! i don't care if you agree with me or not. i'll always say it the way i've said it, which is dosai and you can say it the way you've said it. fine by me. the reason why i think kannadigas say do-say is because wiki lists several variations of spellings (and more importantly pronunciations), one of which is Dosé, i.e. do-say. tamilians don't say it that way and telugus clearly don't if one were to believe your loud protestations. then it must be the kannadigas or malayalis who say it that way. not sure how the malayalis say it, but the do-say fits with other kannadiga pronunciations, namely va-day for vadai and so on. it was a guess based on similar words.

Let the kannadigas speak for themselves. We'll wait for richie, merlot and sasthi to talk abt it.

Charu's post above is pretty clear. I don't know if you understood it as tamil, unlike kannada and telugu, has limited number of alphabet.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:02 pm

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but the do-say fits with other kannadiga pronunciations, namely va-day for vadai and so on. it was a guess based on similar words.
OK, leaving aside the transliteration: do Tamil people pronounce dosai to rhyme the last syllable with say or with pi? The Telugu pronunciation may sound to non-Telugu (and I am guessing non-Kannada) ears quite close to dOse (not a long sound like say, but a short e).

i am sure you are familiar with this greek symbol of the schrodinger equation fame: Ψ. how did you pronounce that when you did your modern physics course? very same sound. so it's closer to pi.
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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:04 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but the do-say fits with other kannadiga pronunciations, namely va-day for vadai and so on. it was a guess based on similar words.
OK, leaving aside the transliteration: do Tamil people pronounce dosai to rhyme the last syllable with say or with pi? The Telugu pronunciation may sound to non-Telugu (and I am guessing non-Kannada) ears quite close to dOse (not a long sound like say, but a short e).

i am sure you are familiar with this greek symbol of the schrodinger equation fame: Ψ. how did you pronounce that when you did your modern physics course? very same sound. so it's closer to pi.
Ok, then you should transliterate it with the i as you do. I am reasonably sure that that's not the sound I heard with respect to dosa in Bangalore, but I don't know Kannada well.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:05 pm

kinnera wrote:

Charu's post above is pretty clear. I don't know if you understood it as tamil, unlike kannada and telugu, has limited number of alphabet.

this is where i think i'd stop if i were you. i never say anything about kannada or telugu alphabet because i know nothing about it. i have explained at length that although tamil has fewer letters, it has self-contained phonetic system which allows it to operate with fewer letters and span the entire range of indian sounds. since you don't seem to know that, you might want to read up on it first. don't want to repeat all that.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:06 pm

charvaka wrote:
kinnera wrote:It is pronounced the same in kannada and telugu. The 'sa' in dosa is a different kind of alphabet (it is called melika 'sa' in telugu. There are two kinds of 'sa's btw). This kind of 'sa' is diffucult to spell in english. Dosa does come close to it and ppl are pronouncing it as the way it should be. There's no need to change it to 'dosai'. There's no need for the extra 'i' at the end.
The two forms I have seen it spelled in Telugu are: dOSa దోశ, and dOse దోసె; the former is more common I think, and the latter a misspelling in Telugu. I think I saw it spelled in Kannada as dOSa ಡೌಶ -- not sure if they also use dOse ಡೌಸೇ. English does not have the S (శ, ಶ) sound as it is pronounced in Telugu and Kannada. So I think the transliteration dosa works better.

thanks! this clears things up a bit for me too.

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Post by doofus_maximus Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:09 pm

i am a kannadiga .. dose is commonly used in Karnataka. I grew up in TN. Dosai is used commonly there.

All the punju friends who eat dose/dosai with fork and a spoon say it as dosa.

HTH.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:11 pm

"melika"? that is an interesting word. tamil consonants are classified in three categories: vallinam (hard), idaiyinam (moderately hard or soft), and mellinam (soft). does melika in telugu mean soft?
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:11 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:i am a kannadiga .. dose is commonly used in Karnataka. I grew up in TN. Dosai is used commonly there.

All the punju friends who eat dose/dosai with fork and a spoon say it as dosa.

HTH.

you've written dose. is that with the accent which makes it closer to "say"?
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Post by doofus_maximus Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
doofus_maximus wrote:i am a kannadiga .. dose is commonly used in Karnataka. I grew up in TN. Dosai is used commonly there.

All the punju friends who eat dose/dosai with fork and a spoon say it as dosa.

HTH.

you've written dose. is that with the accent which makes it closer to "say"?

Yes. I was too lazy to type it out to emphasize the accent. Thought everyone will get the point.
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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:"melika"? that is an interesting word. tamil consonants are classified in three categories: vallinam (hard), idaiyinam (moderately hard or soft), and mellinam (soft). does melika in telugu mean soft?
Melika here means twisted or crooked. It's a description of the shape of the letter as it is written, not a descriptor for the sound. The regular s is while the melika one is . The Nagari equivalents are स and श respectively -- with caveat that pronunciation of the latter s sound is very different between northern Indian languages and Telugu.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:18 pm

thanks d_m and c.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:

Charu's post above is pretty clear. I don't know if you understood it as tamil, unlike kannada and telugu, has limited number of alphabet.

this is where i think i'd stop if i were you. i never say anything about kannada or telugu alphabet because i know nothing about it. i have explained at length that although tamil has fewer letters, it has self-contained phonetic system which allows it to operate with fewer letters and span the entire range of indian sounds. since you don't seem to know that, you might want to read up on it first. don't want to repeat all that.

But i do see a lot of words mispronounced in tamil. We've had this discussion before too and you were arguing that the mispronounced names were how they should be pronounced. Don't want to go there again.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:24 pm

i don't want to go there either, but you might want to ask yourself this q. mispronounced compared to what? any word when it crosses languages tends to take on a life of its own. for example the japanese similar to the telugus and to a certain extent the tamils add a "u" sound to common english words. this is a matter of the word getting internalized in the new language. the english murder words too. pandith became pundit, miLagu thaNNi became mulligatawny and so on.


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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:25 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:i am a kannadiga .. dose is commonly used in Karnataka. I grew up in TN. Dosai is used commonly there.

All the punju friends who eat dose/dosai with fork and a spoon say it as dosa.

HTH.

well, i just checked mtr's menu on the net. (and i also deleted a sarcastic post to the thread started by max. addressed to hed.) mtr spells "vada" as "vade."

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note: i still think dosai is not an equivalent to dosA or dosE.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:29 pm

the "ai" to "ay/E" mapping from tamil to kannada is quite consistent in my limited experience as is the "pa" to "ha" mapping also in the same direction.

my favorite example which combines the two mappings is this beautiful place which has a waterfall in TN near the karnataka border, hogEnakal. it literally means a place where water falls on a rock and creates a mist. beautifully poetic and imaginative name! hogE (kannada) = pugai (tamil) = smoke/mist.

eta: pugai is actually the written more formal representation of the word. colloquially it's even closer to kannada -- pogay.


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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:33 pm

i dunno max. i'm glad this is not about idlis. i don't like dosas that much -- i'd gladly give them up for idlis.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't want to go there either, but you might want to ask yourself this q. mispronounced compared to what? any word when it crosses languages tends to take on a life of its own. for example the japanese similar to the telugus and to a certain extent the tamils add a "u" sound to common english words. this is a matter of the word getting internalized in the new language. the english murder words too. pandith became pundit, miLagu thaNNi became mulligatawny and so on.

mispronounced compared to the original word. For example, Bharatanatyam. Ya, it may be impossible for it to be pronounced as such in tamil because of its limitations. That's fine. But insisting on saying Bharatanattiyam even when talking in a different language is...i don't know what to say. That's just one example.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:48 pm

what do you think are the origins of that word kinnera? where did it come from? BN i mean. this could be another 75 page discussion and i am not up for it right now. maybe in a week.

eta: there are lots of controversies about the precise origins of carnatic music. on the origins of BN there is no doubt.


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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:50 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:colloquially it's even closer to kannada -- pogay.
poga is the Telugu word. It sounds like a lot of '-ai' words in Tamil have '-E' cognates in Kannada and '-a' cognates in Telugu.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:55 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what do you think are the origins of that word kinnera? where did it come from? BN i mean. this could be another 75 page discussion and i am not up for it right now. maybe in a week.

eta: there are lots of controversies about the precise origins of carnatic music. on the origins of BN there is no doubt.

Natyam is a sankrit word for sure. Are you going to argue that the original word is 'Nattiyam' in tamil and that it got distorted to 'Natyam' when it was imbibed into Sanskrit? I hope not!

Anyway, let's stop it here.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:04 pm

i wasn't talking about the word etymology but the origin of the art form of BN itself. the people who started the dance form get to name it and write it and say it the way they want to. in tamil it is pronounced as nAttiyam. it (the word) may have been from sanskrit, but that's how it got absorbed into tamil. and since the progenitors of BN called it that in tamil, that is IMO the correct way to transcribe it in english.

related q: has every sanskritic sound been absorbed with absolutely no change in telugu?

another q: how do we know what exactly the original pronunciation in sanskrit was? how can we tell which indian language most closely mimics what the sanskrit speakers had in mind?
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:another q: how do we know what exactly the original pronunciation in sanskrit was? how can we tell which indian language most closely mimics what the sanskrit speakers had in mind?

good question. unfortunately, to my limited knowledge, there isn't an answer.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
related q: has every sanskritic sound been absorbed with absolutely no change in telugu?

another q: how do we know what exactly the original pronunciation in sanskrit was? how can we tell which indian language most closely mimics what the sanskrit speakers had in mind?

We add 'du' at the end of male proper names, esp mythological. For
eg: Ramudu, Lakshmanudu, Bharatudu, etc., just as tamilians say raman,
Lakumanan, Bharathan/bharadhan, etc.
But when telugus speak in a different language, like english, they use
the original names. They don't say Ramudu is the brother of Lakshmanudu.


Other than that, i don't see much distortion of the original. Telugu has a lot of alphabet and vowel-consonent, consonent-consonent, etc combinations. So almost any complicated sound can be trasliterated into telugu without getting distorted, i guess.

As for the the original sanskrit pronunciation, we have the smritis and srutis, with a huge emphasis on pronunciation. As a brahmin, you should know that.

I'll rest my case here. No interest to go further. I've had a lot of such discussions before. It leads us nowhere.
Besides, the food lovers are going to hate us for taking this discussion in this thread.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:25 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:another q: how do we know what exactly the original pronunciation in sanskrit was? how can we tell which indian language most closely mimics what the sanskrit speakers had in mind?

good question. unfortunately, to my limited knowledge, there isn't an answer.

i think this is one of the preoccupations of comparative linguists which i find fascinating. they use probabilistic methods to determine the most probable original sound. this is why it is better when none of us are of that occupation, to not fling accusations at each other about distorting original sounds. some day i'd like to delve into it.
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Post by charvaka Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:related q: has every sanskritic sound been absorbed with absolutely no change in telugu?
I don't know about sounds -- and nobody can, because we can't know how Sanskrit was originally pronounced as you mentioned. But there are Sanskrit words that get modified when they get absorbed into Telugu. Borrowed words from Sanskrit are classified into two groups: tatsamas (literally, "same as that") and tadbhavas ("born from that"). The former only acquire a vowel at the end if that by the transformation (e.g. rAmah => rAmu). The latter are words that got transformed while being absorbed into Telugu (e.g. upAdhyAya => ojja).
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:28 pm

kinnera wrote:

As for the the original sanskrit pronunciation, we have the smritis and srutis, with a huge emphasis on pronunciation.

yes but these are still handed down by word of mouth from father to son, from guru to disciple. while the textual content may be accurate, who's to vouch for the accuracy of pronunciations? and there are differences in the way a marathi priest, tamil priest, and telugu priest would say these words. how do you account for these differences in pronunciation of the same liturgy?
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:32 pm

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:related q: has every sanskritic sound been absorbed with absolutely no change in telugu?
I don't know about sounds -- and nobody can, because we can't know how Sanskrit was originally pronounced as you mentioned. But there are Sanskrit words that get modified when they get absorbed into Telugu. Borrowed words from Sanskrit are classified into two groups: tatsamas (literally, "same as that") and tadbhavas ("born from that"). The former only acquire a vowel at the end if that by the transformation (e.g. rAmah => rAmu). The latter are words that got transformed while being absorbed into Telugu (e.g. upAdhyAya => ojja).

thanks! very informative. i suspect the colloquial tamil word for a brahmin priest or school teacher, vAthiyAr, is the tamil cognate of ojja. come to think of it two generations ago, vAthiyAr used to be written formally in brahmanical tamil writing as ubAthiyAyar (of which vAthiyAr is a contraction methinks); even closer to the original upAdhyAy! fascinating...

the literary tamil word for school teacher though is Asiriyar.


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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:

As for the the original sanskrit pronunciation, we have the smritis and srutis, with a huge emphasis on pronunciation.

yes but these are still handed down by word of mouth from father to son, from guru to disciple. while the textual content may be accurate, who's to vouch for the accuracy of pronunciations? and there are differences in the way a marathi priest, tamil priest, and telugu priest would say these words. how do you account for these differences in pronunciation of the same liturgy?

They are huge on pronunciation coz even a li'l bit of distortion can change the meaning, i believe. i leaned a few verses from the scriptures in my chanting/bhajan class that i used to go to. It's mind boggling to see how major the pronunciation, the tone of the voice, the pitch and all was. Everything has got a symbol too, the finguring, the body movements, etc. That's how it has been over the centuries and that's how they've been passed down and preserved. It doesn't matter what language the priest speaks.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:41 pm

kinnera wrote: It doesn't matter what language the priest speaks.

it absolutely does, unless one is tone deaf. in formal liguistics there's even a word that describes it -- "stratum influence".

i've heard the rig vedic chants ringing out in my maternal ancestral home and it sounds way different when i heard it chanted by a bunch of utthar pradeshi priests.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:48 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote: It doesn't matter what language the priest speaks.

it absolutely does, unless one is tone deaf. i've heard the rig vedic chants ringing out in my maternal ancestral home and it sounds way different when i heard it chanted by a bunch of utthar pradeshi priests.

One of them clearly didn't go to the vedic pathashala then. All these are preserved well in the south. Visit a vedic school next time you are in india and learn about the nuances of sanskrit pronunciation.

Shall we do EOD now?

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