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Kris
truthbetold
Propagandhi711
Seva Lamberdar
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latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:58 pm
(1) “One thing is clear that the state support is meant primarily and intensively, apart from general facilities to all, to people who have been left disabled by certain socio economic constraints. Poverty is definitely one of them.” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
The Govt. help in education etc. should be based on the recipient’s current economic condition (poverty level) and not caste or religion.
There is no reason to use arbitrary criterion (such as the caste of people or the misinformation in Manusmriti) in giving Govt. help to people these days …. “Mistaking workers as dalits and milking the holey Manusmriti” -- http://creative.sulekha.com/mistaking-workers-as-dalits-and-milking-the-holey-manusmriti_492399_blog
(2) “There can be an enlightened debate on as to what and to whom the Vedas or other Hindu scriptures sought to teach. Since today these texts are accessible to everybody it can be said without doubt that they have enriched indian philosophical thought but justification of an irrational system such as the caste system on the basis of the Vedas is far more adventurous venture especially in the light of a mind boggling information brought out by Dr. Ambedkar and many others after analysing the contents of numerous Hindu scriptures” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
With all due respect to Dr. Ambedkar, his statements about Vedas don’t seem correct.
Vedas’ knowledge was available to everyone including the Sudra, as indicated by the examples of Satyakama and Valmiki et al. …. “Vedic vocations (Hindu castes) were not related to heredity (birth)”,
http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/_caste.html
(3) “I would only say that ask yourself by looking at the census data that is going to come out soon (caste census) as to how much economic empowerment of dalits actually happened (that despite reservation in place)? And if the answer is no then ask why not? Also gauge as to how much effort is needed (you are making Herculean efforts here, I am sure you would do that statistics for it would help you) to bring them at par! One thing is clear the reservation has not been implemented properly especially for SC/ST candidates against whom even OBC groups gang up, they being the most vulnerable.” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Dalits (SC or Scheduled Castes) can easily take important steps to remedy this situation, by avoiding the use of caste in quotas etc. -- “Caste exploitation and what can dalits do to stop it?”,
http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-exploitation-and-what-can-dalits-do-to-stop-it_473412_blog
(4) “Participation and not reservation was demanded by the downtrodden, reservation policy is the means to achieve that participation. The need of the hour is to groom leaders in every field out of these groups with strong commitment to their community's development within the overall perspective of national development.“ Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Reservations and quotas based on caste in education and jobs are not the right way to solve the caste related issues. The quotas based on caste and the use of caste in census prolong the caste system and increase casteism officially.
There is only one right way for Govt. to help people and that is according the economic condition or the poverty level of the recipient and not his / her caste or religion …. “Some questions (comments) related to Hindu caste system”,
http://creative.sulekha.com/some-questions-comments-related-to-hindu-caste-system_595419_blog
(5) “You so insensibly (pardon me) refuted Eklavya's case, poor lad suffered because he was a sudra. It is one of the very less known cases of direct victimisation in the known mythology on the basis of caste. What kind of teacher asks a fully able bodied person to cripple himself for he defied the rules of the game. He learnt on his own and not by drona and since he was intrinsically better than drona himself, proved so convincingly. This perhaps did not go well with drona (you see there can be a thousand explanations to a picture or an event).” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
It was simply an official / legal issue involving Dronacharya and Eklavya in the Mahabharata. However, people in certain communities these days use this unfortunate ancient episode to freeload by seeking / demanding Govt. quotas based on caste in education and jobs.
Eklavya in the ancient Mahabharata wanted to learn archery from Dronacharya who had taken an exclusive assignment with Hastinapur‘s royal family to motivate, teach and look after the well being of Hastinapur‘s princes only. Thus there was no possibility for Dronacharya to assume the role as teacher of someone else (outside the royal family of Hastinapur).
Dronacharya would therefore not accept Eklavya (who was not a member of Hastinapur’s royal family) as his student and teach him archery. By agreeing to tutor Eklavya would have created conflict of interest for Dronachrya against the king and the royal family, in terms of his exclusive contract with them. For that, he could easily lose his hard found job as the teacher for king’s children and might even get punished in other ways (such as being exiled, jailed or killed on king‘s orders).
Thus Dronacharya declined to teach archery to Eklavya, like he also did in the case of Karna when Karna (not a part of Hastinapur’s royal family) approached Dronacharya to teach him archery. How nice and safe would it have been for Eklavya and Dronacharya if Eklavya had instead found another person (in life or picture) to teach him archery after he was refused by Dronacharya!
But Eklavya, unlike Karna who found another teacher to teach him archery after being refused by Dronacharya, did not do that. Eklavya went ahead and learnt archery by using Dronacharya’s name / picture without the knowledge and permission of Dronacharya.
This amounted to Eklavya getting inspired and motivated during education / training by Dronacharya as his teacher, which was in violation of Dronachrya’s exclusive contract with Hastinapur’s king who wanted Dronacharya to motivate, train and look after the interests and well being of only the members (sons) of royal family.
Naturally, Eklavya’s ill-advised choice / actions (going on his own in learning archery in the name of Dronacharya in spite of being refused) had repercussions to himself and also to Dronacharya (as indicated above). Hastinapur’s king wouldn‘t want Dronacharya to be a party in this venture (as Eklavya‘s teacher, even if unknowingly).
The punishment in such situations (stealing or taking / doing things illegally or without permission) was swift and harsh, no different than what happened around the world long ago and in some places / societies happening even now -- people having their hands cut-off for stealing (sometimes even for taking a loaf of bread without permission) or a person getting stoned to death by total strangers for accusations of adultery.
Anyway, considering Eklavya had violated and interfered in the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur’s king (requiring Dronacharya only to look after, motivate, teach and ensure the well being of royal family members only), it seems Eklavya managed to escape death at the hands of Hastinpur’s king when he only had to surrender his archery thumb to Dronacharya (for using Dronacharya’s name / image as teacher without permission and for violating the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur’s king).
How silly that some people now use this episode involving Eklavya in the ancient Mahabharata to justify quotas based on caste in education and jobs to certain communities. Perhaps they might next use the example of someone losing his hand long ago for stealing or taking bread without permission to justify quotas in education and jobs to a community these days.
(6) “In the narrative 3 sudras became brahmins in the entire known mythology of thousands of years (three yugas!!); the question is aren't exceptions of so small a magnitude allowed in the rule of the game in so big a time span in which civilisations together were made and became extinct.“ Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
The examples of 3 Sudras becoming Brahmins by learning the Veda show that people could learn the Veda and become Brahmins if they wanted to do that.
(7) “When SC leaders (read Dr. Ambedkar primarily) came up with questions of caste discrimination and appalling condition of dalits they also came up with answers. Do you have answers in your scheme of things? I see only questions. I am sorry to say that caste is so strong that even the Asian communities (read Hindus, Sikhs) living abroad are practising it which has been proved by several studies done (CastewatchUk et. al.) to that end. Fortunately a sizeable portion of upper caste hindu as well as sikh diaspora is actively supporting the movement against this discrimination. What image do you think such discrimination make that of Hinduism?” … Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Anyone interested in getting rid of caste system and casteism in society, especially those believing that caste is detrimental to the individual and the society, should strive to remove the use of caste in quotas / reservations and census.
If the use of caste is seen as not good during social interactions, then why prolong and promote caste by giving it official status / dimension through Govt. quotas based on caste and the use of caste in census? Using caste officially anywhere (e.g. in quotas and census) is not going to get rid of it or make it irrelevant.
People shouldn’t complain about being the victims of caste system socially while they promote the use and abuse of caste and caste system officially in their effort to continue and even seek more caste based quotas / reservation in education and jobs from Govt. and their preference lies in census based on caste.
The best and fairest way for Govt. to help people in education and jobs is according to their economic condition (poverty line / limit) and not their caste (ancient family occupation) or religion (where and to whom they pray / worship).
(Ref.: June 29, 2013 comment to
"Macaulay report refutes the caste basis for quotas” --- http://creative.sulekha.com/macaulay-report-refutes-the-caste-basis-for-quotas_591797_blog)
Seva Lamberdar:
The Govt. help in education etc. should be based on the recipient’s current economic condition (poverty level) and not caste or religion.
There is no reason to use arbitrary criterion (such as the caste of people or the misinformation in Manusmriti) in giving Govt. help to people these days …. “Mistaking workers as dalits and milking the holey Manusmriti” -- http://creative.sulekha.com/mistaking-workers-as-dalits-and-milking-the-holey-manusmriti_492399_blog
(2) “There can be an enlightened debate on as to what and to whom the Vedas or other Hindu scriptures sought to teach. Since today these texts are accessible to everybody it can be said without doubt that they have enriched indian philosophical thought but justification of an irrational system such as the caste system on the basis of the Vedas is far more adventurous venture especially in the light of a mind boggling information brought out by Dr. Ambedkar and many others after analysing the contents of numerous Hindu scriptures” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
With all due respect to Dr. Ambedkar, his statements about Vedas don’t seem correct.
Vedas’ knowledge was available to everyone including the Sudra, as indicated by the examples of Satyakama and Valmiki et al. …. “Vedic vocations (Hindu castes) were not related to heredity (birth)”,
http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/_caste.html
(3) “I would only say that ask yourself by looking at the census data that is going to come out soon (caste census) as to how much economic empowerment of dalits actually happened (that despite reservation in place)? And if the answer is no then ask why not? Also gauge as to how much effort is needed (you are making Herculean efforts here, I am sure you would do that statistics for it would help you) to bring them at par! One thing is clear the reservation has not been implemented properly especially for SC/ST candidates against whom even OBC groups gang up, they being the most vulnerable.” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Dalits (SC or Scheduled Castes) can easily take important steps to remedy this situation, by avoiding the use of caste in quotas etc. -- “Caste exploitation and what can dalits do to stop it?”,
http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-exploitation-and-what-can-dalits-do-to-stop-it_473412_blog
(4) “Participation and not reservation was demanded by the downtrodden, reservation policy is the means to achieve that participation. The need of the hour is to groom leaders in every field out of these groups with strong commitment to their community's development within the overall perspective of national development.“ Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Reservations and quotas based on caste in education and jobs are not the right way to solve the caste related issues. The quotas based on caste and the use of caste in census prolong the caste system and increase casteism officially.
There is only one right way for Govt. to help people and that is according the economic condition or the poverty level of the recipient and not his / her caste or religion …. “Some questions (comments) related to Hindu caste system”,
http://creative.sulekha.com/some-questions-comments-related-to-hindu-caste-system_595419_blog
(5) “You so insensibly (pardon me) refuted Eklavya's case, poor lad suffered because he was a sudra. It is one of the very less known cases of direct victimisation in the known mythology on the basis of caste. What kind of teacher asks a fully able bodied person to cripple himself for he defied the rules of the game. He learnt on his own and not by drona and since he was intrinsically better than drona himself, proved so convincingly. This perhaps did not go well with drona (you see there can be a thousand explanations to a picture or an event).” Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
It was simply an official / legal issue involving Dronacharya and Eklavya in the Mahabharata. However, people in certain communities these days use this unfortunate ancient episode to freeload by seeking / demanding Govt. quotas based on caste in education and jobs.
Eklavya in the ancient Mahabharata wanted to learn archery from Dronacharya who had taken an exclusive assignment with Hastinapur‘s royal family to motivate, teach and look after the well being of Hastinapur‘s princes only. Thus there was no possibility for Dronacharya to assume the role as teacher of someone else (outside the royal family of Hastinapur).
Dronacharya would therefore not accept Eklavya (who was not a member of Hastinapur’s royal family) as his student and teach him archery. By agreeing to tutor Eklavya would have created conflict of interest for Dronachrya against the king and the royal family, in terms of his exclusive contract with them. For that, he could easily lose his hard found job as the teacher for king’s children and might even get punished in other ways (such as being exiled, jailed or killed on king‘s orders).
Thus Dronacharya declined to teach archery to Eklavya, like he also did in the case of Karna when Karna (not a part of Hastinapur’s royal family) approached Dronacharya to teach him archery. How nice and safe would it have been for Eklavya and Dronacharya if Eklavya had instead found another person (in life or picture) to teach him archery after he was refused by Dronacharya!
But Eklavya, unlike Karna who found another teacher to teach him archery after being refused by Dronacharya, did not do that. Eklavya went ahead and learnt archery by using Dronacharya’s name / picture without the knowledge and permission of Dronacharya.
This amounted to Eklavya getting inspired and motivated during education / training by Dronacharya as his teacher, which was in violation of Dronachrya’s exclusive contract with Hastinapur’s king who wanted Dronacharya to motivate, train and look after the interests and well being of only the members (sons) of royal family.
Naturally, Eklavya’s ill-advised choice / actions (going on his own in learning archery in the name of Dronacharya in spite of being refused) had repercussions to himself and also to Dronacharya (as indicated above). Hastinapur’s king wouldn‘t want Dronacharya to be a party in this venture (as Eklavya‘s teacher, even if unknowingly).
The punishment in such situations (stealing or taking / doing things illegally or without permission) was swift and harsh, no different than what happened around the world long ago and in some places / societies happening even now -- people having their hands cut-off for stealing (sometimes even for taking a loaf of bread without permission) or a person getting stoned to death by total strangers for accusations of adultery.
Anyway, considering Eklavya had violated and interfered in the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur’s king (requiring Dronacharya only to look after, motivate, teach and ensure the well being of royal family members only), it seems Eklavya managed to escape death at the hands of Hastinpur’s king when he only had to surrender his archery thumb to Dronacharya (for using Dronacharya’s name / image as teacher without permission and for violating the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur’s king).
How silly that some people now use this episode involving Eklavya in the ancient Mahabharata to justify quotas based on caste in education and jobs to certain communities. Perhaps they might next use the example of someone losing his hand long ago for stealing or taking bread without permission to justify quotas in education and jobs to a community these days.
(6) “In the narrative 3 sudras became brahmins in the entire known mythology of thousands of years (three yugas!!); the question is aren't exceptions of so small a magnitude allowed in the rule of the game in so big a time span in which civilisations together were made and became extinct.“ Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
The examples of 3 Sudras becoming Brahmins by learning the Veda show that people could learn the Veda and become Brahmins if they wanted to do that.
(7) “When SC leaders (read Dr. Ambedkar primarily) came up with questions of caste discrimination and appalling condition of dalits they also came up with answers. Do you have answers in your scheme of things? I see only questions. I am sorry to say that caste is so strong that even the Asian communities (read Hindus, Sikhs) living abroad are practising it which has been proved by several studies done (CastewatchUk et. al.) to that end. Fortunately a sizeable portion of upper caste hindu as well as sikh diaspora is actively supporting the movement against this discrimination. What image do you think such discrimination make that of Hinduism?” … Jitendra
Seva Lamberdar:
Anyone interested in getting rid of caste system and casteism in society, especially those believing that caste is detrimental to the individual and the society, should strive to remove the use of caste in quotas / reservations and census.
If the use of caste is seen as not good during social interactions, then why prolong and promote caste by giving it official status / dimension through Govt. quotas based on caste and the use of caste in census? Using caste officially anywhere (e.g. in quotas and census) is not going to get rid of it or make it irrelevant.
People shouldn’t complain about being the victims of caste system socially while they promote the use and abuse of caste and caste system officially in their effort to continue and even seek more caste based quotas / reservation in education and jobs from Govt. and their preference lies in census based on caste.
The best and fairest way for Govt. to help people in education and jobs is according to their economic condition (poverty line / limit) and not their caste (ancient family occupation) or religion (where and to whom they pray / worship).
(Ref.: June 29, 2013 comment to
"Macaulay report refutes the caste basis for quotas” --- http://creative.sulekha.com/macaulay-report-refutes-the-caste-basis-for-quotas_591797_blog)
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Propagandhi711 Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:03 pm
Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
Propagandhi711- Posts : 6941
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:23 pm
Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Kris Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:44 pm
truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
>>>TBT,
I didn't read the original post, but I do think help to the economically disadvantaged is a very good idea, in the case of candidates who qualify on the basis of merit. Society has an opportunity cost here, if those people don't get ahead purely because of economic constraints. I am categorically opposed to affirmative action/quotas as we know it now, which involves lowering the bar to achieve diversity. That is pointless social engineering and is at best a 'band aid' solution.
Kris- Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Rishi Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:11 pm
Sevaji,
Whether you agree with caste based quotas or not, it is too late to do anything about it. No caste group is going to give up voluntarily the benefits they receive now. I think we should stop discussing it anymore.
Btw what exactly you mean by UCC? Is it just about the number of wives you can have at any time?
Whether you agree with caste based quotas or not, it is too late to do anything about it. No caste group is going to give up voluntarily the benefits they receive now. I think we should stop discussing it anymore.
Btw what exactly you mean by UCC? Is it just about the number of wives you can have at any time?
Rishi- Posts : 5129
Join date : 2011-09-02
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:36 pm
Kris,
In your system, you select future students based on merit
. Then if some of them are unable to meet financial costs of education, then you support govt provide financial support for them.
the reason for financial support is opportunity cost to the society.
Why should govt provide that support? There are other options.
Harvard option: it created an endowment to fund its various activities. One of the functions of the endowment is to fund grants to students to offset high costs of Harvard education. The logic seems to be that students selected for Harvard are top notch and society is likely to benefit from these students. Similar to your argument except the money does not come from govt. This model is followed by few other selective universities in us. If society really feels there is a need, they will step up and fund them. Why bring in govt?
In your system, you select future students based on merit
. Then if some of them are unable to meet financial costs of education, then you support govt provide financial support for them.
the reason for financial support is opportunity cost to the society.
Why should govt provide that support? There are other options.
Harvard option: it created an endowment to fund its various activities. One of the functions of the endowment is to fund grants to students to offset high costs of Harvard education. The logic seems to be that students selected for Harvard are top notch and society is likely to benefit from these students. Similar to your argument except the money does not come from govt. This model is followed by few other selective universities in us. If society really feels there is a need, they will step up and fund them. Why bring in govt?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:36 pm
Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
LOL.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:40 pm
truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
TBT, these are replies to questions / comments related to caste based quotas which I don't support anyway.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:43 pm
Kris wrote:truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
>>>TBT,
I didn't read the original post, but I do think help to the economically disadvantaged is a very good idea, in the case of candidates who qualify on the basis of merit. Society has an opportunity cost here, if those people don't get ahead purely because of economic constraints. I am categorically opposed to affirmative action/quotas as we know it now, which involves lowering the bar to achieve diversity. That is pointless social engineering and is at best a 'band aid' solution.
Kris, agree with you that any help from Govt. in education etc. should be based on the economic condition of potential recipient and not his / her caste and religion.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:50 pm
Rishi wrote:Sevaji,
Whether you agree with caste based quotas or not, it is too late to do anything about it. No caste group is going to give up voluntarily the benefits they receive now. I think we should stop discussing it anymore.
Btw what exactly you mean by UCC? Is it just about the number of wives you can have at any time?
Rishi, you are quite right about the mess created by the caste based quotas. As for the UCC or Uniform Civil Code, it means having one Law officially for everyone, irrespective of religion, race, caste and gender.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:53 pm
sevaji,Seva Lamberdar wrote:truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
TBT, these are replies to questions / comments related to caste based quotas which I don't support anyway.
You stated economic conditions as an acceptable reason for govt support. What are your reasons for such a statement. It may be obvious to you but please state your reasons. That will allow us to discuss merits of your statement.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by goodcitizn Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:17 am
Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
Join date : 2011-05-03
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Kris Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:39 am
>>>>>>TBT, I am not a big fan of gov't , but have to acknowledge that there are certain gaps that the private sector alone can't fill. Harvard-style endowments can help, but we are talking the cream of the crop here. I am talking about expanding the possibilities to include a broader base of promising students.truthbetold wrote:Kris,
In your system, you select future students based on merit
. Then if some of them are unable to meet financial costs of education, then you support govt provide financial support for them.
the reason for financial support is opportunity cost to the society.
Why should govt provide that support? There are other options.
Harvard option: it created an endowment to fund its various activities. One of the functions of the endowment is to fund grants to students to offset high costs of Harvard education. The logic seems to be that students selected for Harvard are top notch and society is likely to benefit from these students. Similar to your argument except the money does not come from govt. This model is followed by few other selective universities in us. If society really feels there is a need, they will step up and fund them. Why bring in govt?
Kris- Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by garam_kuta Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:00 am
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
LOL.
@ LOLling the privileged advantaged inheritance secured blood sucking swines!Last edited by garam_kuta on Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total
garam_kuta- Posts : 3768
Join date : 2011-05-18
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by garam_kuta Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:01 am
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Rishi wrote:Sevaji,
Whether you agree with caste based quotas or not, it is too late to do anything about it. No caste group is going to give up voluntarily the benefits they receive now. I think we should stop discussing it anymore.
Btw what exactly you mean by UCC? Is it just about the number of wives you can have at any time?
Rishi, you are quite right about the mess created by the caste based quotas. As for the UCC or Uniform Civil Code, it means having one Law officially for everyone, irrespective of religion, race, caste and gender.
it's the number politics and can get only worse:(
garam_kuta- Posts : 3768
Join date : 2011-05-18
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:18 am
goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
Well said.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:29 am
truthbetold wrote:sevaji,Seva Lamberdar wrote:truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
TBT, these are replies to questions / comments related to caste based quotas which I don't support anyway.
You stated economic conditions as an acceptable reason for govt support. What are your reasons for such a statement. It may be obvious to you but please state your reasons. That will allow us to discuss merits of your statement.
TBT, I am not in favor of quotas from Govt. in education etc.
But if there is going to help / quota from Govt. to people in education anyway, it should be according to the economic condition and certain minimum acceptable qualifications of the recipient (using the merit-cum-means criterion) and not for his / her caste or religion.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:46 am
garam_kuta wrote:Seva Lamberdar wrote:Rishi wrote:Sevaji,
Whether you agree with caste based quotas or not, it is too late to do anything about it. No caste group is going to give up voluntarily the benefits they receive now. I think we should stop discussing it anymore.
Btw what exactly you mean by UCC? Is it just about the number of wives you can have at any time?
Rishi, you are quite right about the mess created by the caste based quotas. As for the UCC or Uniform Civil Code, it means having one Law officially for everyone, irrespective of religion, race, caste and gender.
it's the number politics and can get only worse:(
That already has been happening progressively even since the caste based quotas in education and jobs were started after the Independence; and there is ample proof of that (as in the following),
https://such.forumotion.com/t14143-khaps-demand-10-quota-in-gazetted-officers-posts#108671
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:26 pm
garam_kuta wrote:Seva Lamberdar wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
LOL.
Gk,
Isn't that a caste based stereotype without using words like w...I...b..?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:30 pm
Sevaji,Seva Lamberdar wrote:truthbetold wrote:sevaji,Seva Lamberdar wrote:truthbetold wrote:Sevaji.,
please explain why any help should be given to any one for any reason by govt.?
Then explain why help should be given according to economic condition?
give examples of "economic conditions" used in your explanation?
TBT, these are replies to questions / comments related to caste based quotas which I don't support anyway.
You stated economic conditions as an acceptable reason for govt support. What are your reasons for such a statement. It may be obvious to you but please state your reasons. That will allow us to discuss merits of your statement.
TBT, I am not in favor of quotas from Govt. in education etc.
But if there is going to help / quota from Govt. to people in education anyway, it should be according to the economic condition and certain minimum acceptable qualifications of the recipient (using the merit-cum-means criterion) and not for his / her caste or religion.
My question is why is means (economic conditions) an acceptable method to provide govt support? Instead of answering that question you are asserting your beliefs again and again. That does not help take the argument forward.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:37 pm
Gc.,goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
Good suggestion to include parent education along with economic conditions. It is somewhat on the lines us supreme court's push to find non racial selection process.
however I have not seen a reasoning behind the suggested solution. Why should govt provide assistance to students of poorer economic conditions and weak parental education background?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:42 pm
ok. You want help extended beyond cream of the crop. Now the question of what is the benefit of offering govt assistance to broader base of promising students comes into picture again? What is the significant benefit? What is the probability that such a benefit would achieved? Any supporting evidence on "incremental benefit" that one may get from this investment?Kris wrote:>>>>>>TBT, I am not a big fan of gov't , but have to acknowledge that there are certain gaps that the private sector alone can't fill. Harvard-style endowments can help, but we are talking the cream of the crop here. I am talking about expanding the possibilities to include a broader base of promising students.truthbetold wrote:Kris,
In your system, you select future students based on merit
. Then if some of them are unable to meet financial costs of education, then you support govt provide financial support for them.
the reason for financial support is opportunity cost to the society.
Why should govt provide that support? There are other options.
Harvard option: it created an endowment to fund its various activities. One of the functions of the endowment is to fund grants to students to offset high costs of Harvard education. The logic seems to be that students selected for Harvard are top notch and society is likely to benefit from these students. Similar to your argument except the money does not come from govt. This model is followed by few other selective universities in us. If society really feels there is a need, they will step up and fund them. Why bring in govt?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:15 pm
[quote="Seva Lamberdar"]
If the current reservations are the cause of fostering casteism, what is the evidence?
Why are subcastes persisting in brahmins? Why is there intense rivalry between forward castes? None of them benefit from reservations? Is there any evidence of social changes in forward castes to reduce or eliminate casteism?
Yes. There is more social cohesion within Bc and sc castes. Reservations probably have something to do with that. The fcs in their own self interest should have diluted their caste based.association and formed one whole new fc caste. But we do not even remotely see any such reaction to reservations. Different groups of fcs are manipulating the reservation to improve their group's political prospects.
reservations are not the cause of casteism. They contribute to the continuation of casteism along with much more significant other factors. Deeply embedded Hindu beliefs, cultural divisions, political selfishness and economic disparities are more critical to the continuation of casteism in India.
Seva and gc,goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
[b]The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Well said.
If the current reservations are the cause of fostering casteism, what is the evidence?
Why are subcastes persisting in brahmins? Why is there intense rivalry between forward castes? None of them benefit from reservations? Is there any evidence of social changes in forward castes to reduce or eliminate casteism?
Yes. There is more social cohesion within Bc and sc castes. Reservations probably have something to do with that. The fcs in their own self interest should have diluted their caste based.association and formed one whole new fc caste. But we do not even remotely see any such reaction to reservations. Different groups of fcs are manipulating the reservation to improve their group's political prospects.
reservations are not the cause of casteism. They contribute to the continuation of casteism along with much more significant other factors. Deeply embedded Hindu beliefs, cultural divisions, political selfishness and economic disparities are more critical to the continuation of casteism in India.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:31 pm
truthbetold wrote:Seva Lamberdar wrote:goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Well said.
Seva and gc,
If the current reservations are the cause of fostering casteism, what is the evidence?
Why are subcastes persisting in brahmins? Why is there intense rivalry between forward castes? None of them benefit from reservations? Is there any evidence of social changes in forward castes to reduce or eliminate casteism?
Yes. There is more social cohesion within Bc and sc castes. Reservations probably have something to do with that. The fcs in their own self interest should have diluted their caste based.association and formed one whole new fc caste. But we do not even remotely see any such reaction to reservations. Different groups of fcs are manipulating the reservation to improve their group's political prospects.
reservations are not the cause of casteism. They contribute to the continuation of casteism along with much more significant other factors. Deeply embedded Hindu beliefs, cultural divisions, political selfishness and economic disparities are more critical to the continuation of casteism in India.
TBT, the caste system won't become irrelevant in society and the casteism won't end among people as long as the Govt's caste based quota system in education and jobs continues, as the following two essays explain in detail ---
(1) "Politicization of caste system" .... http://creative.sulekha.com/politicization-of-caste-system_456766_blog
(2) "Caste exploitation and what can dalits do to stop it?” ....
http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-exploitation-and-what-can-dalits-do-to-stop-it_473412_blog
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Kris Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:05 pm
truthbetold wrote:ok. You want help extended beyond cream of the crop. Now the question of what is the benefit of offering govt assistance to broader base of promising students comes into picture again? What is the significant benefit? What is the probability that such a benefit would achieved? Any supporting evidence on "incremental benefit" that one may get from this investment?Kris wrote:>>>>>>TBT, I am not a big fan of gov't , but have to acknowledge that there are certain gaps that the private sector alone can't fill. Harvard-style endowments can help, but we are talking the cream of the crop here. I am talking about expanding the possibilities to include a broader base of promising students.truthbetold wrote:Kris,
In your system, you select future students based on merit
. Then if some of them are unable to meet financial costs of education, then you support govt provide financial support for them.
the reason for financial support is opportunity cost to the society.
Why should govt provide that support? There are other options.
Harvard option: it created an endowment to fund its various activities. One of the functions of the endowment is to fund grants to students to offset high costs of Harvard education. The logic seems to be that students selected for Harvard are top notch and society is likely to benefit from these students. Similar to your argument except the money does not come from govt. This model is followed by few other selective universities in us. If society really feels there is a need, they will step up and fund them. Why bring in govt?
>>>>TBT, you have to take it almost as an article of faith that a bright kid with a good education will be a positive contributor to society. Of course, there will be exceptions to this, but this is the general correlation. Before you start doling out the subsidies, you set the criteria- GPA, SAT score, whatever.
Kris- Posts : 5460
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:11 pm
Kris,
Ok. We have a group that has potential to perform well and that group's progress is likely to benefit society. In such a case govt can help the group with additional resources(funds etc) provided the group is selected based on some prescribed criteria.
what is not yet established is who sets the criteria? Govt. As the funds owner? Society as the source of funds? A group of intellectuals?
Sevaji and gc,
would you agree with what Kris proposed above?
Ok. We have a group that has potential to perform well and that group's progress is likely to benefit society. In such a case govt can help the group with additional resources(funds etc) provided the group is selected based on some prescribed criteria.
what is not yet established is who sets the criteria? Govt. As the funds owner? Society as the source of funds? A group of intellectuals?
Sevaji and gc,
would you agree with what Kris proposed above?
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:23 pm
Sevaji,
I read both links suggested by you. Out of politeness I will refrain from commenting on the material I read.
you have not answered my question on why should govt support someone due to economic or parental education?
Indian constitution did not decide to provide reservations to sc/st because of puranic stories. There were hard ground realities of 19th and 20th century statistics and daily practices that were used to define who deserve reservations. These hard facts are out there. Pick up those facts and explain why your pov is correct.
So far you have refused to back up your pov.
I read both links suggested by you. Out of politeness I will refrain from commenting on the material I read.
you have not answered my question on why should govt support someone due to economic or parental education?
Indian constitution did not decide to provide reservations to sc/st because of puranic stories. There were hard ground realities of 19th and 20th century statistics and daily practices that were used to define who deserve reservations. These hard facts are out there. Pick up those facts and explain why your pov is correct.
So far you have refused to back up your pov.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by truthbetold Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:25 pm
Sevaji,
I read both links suggested by you. Out of politeness I will refrain from commenting on the material I read.
you have not answered my question on why should govt support someone due to economic or parental education?
Indian constitution did not decide to provide reservations to sc/st because of puranic stories. There were hard ground realities of 19th and 20th century statistics and daily practices that were used to define who deserve reservations. These hard facts are out there. Pick up those facts and explain why your pov is correct.
So far you have refused to back up your pov.
I read both links suggested by you. Out of politeness I will refrain from commenting on the material I read.
you have not answered my question on why should govt support someone due to economic or parental education?
Indian constitution did not decide to provide reservations to sc/st because of puranic stories. There were hard ground realities of 19th and 20th century statistics and daily practices that were used to define who deserve reservations. These hard facts are out there. Pick up those facts and explain why your pov is correct.
So far you have refused to back up your pov.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by garam_kuta Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:45 pm
truthbetold wrote:garam_kuta wrote:Seva Lamberdar wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
LOL.
Gk,
Isn't that a caste based stereotype without using words like w...I...b..?
ah..sorry that was misleading and vulnerable to be misconstrued.. I was not talking about the DNA but the $$ inherited from the family that gives total financial security and a flouting gab
garam_kuta- Posts : 3768
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:01 pm
truthbetold wrote:Sevaji,
I read both links suggested by you. Out of politeness I will refrain from commenting on the material I read.
you have not answered my question on why should govt support someone due to economic or parental education?
Indian constitution did not decide to provide reservations to sc/st because of puranic stories. There were hard ground realities of 19th and 20th century statistics and daily practices that were used to define who deserve reservations. These hard facts are out there. Pick up those facts and explain why your pov is correct.
So far you have refused to back up your pov.
Lol TBT. Don't be so polite. Express yourself freely even if you don't understand it.
Regarding my point of view, I have already stated it clearly in the above and in all my articles (blogs). Here again:
if there is going to be any help (financial or other kind, including in the form of quotas / reservations etc.) from Govt. to people in education etc., it should be on the basis of economic condition (with respect to poverty line / limit) of the potential aid recipient and not on the consideration of his / her caste or religion.
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Kris Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:14 pm
truthbetold wrote:Kris,
Ok. We have a group that has potential to perform well and that group's progress is likely to benefit society. In such a case govt can help the group with additional resources(funds etc) provided the group is selected based on some prescribed criteria.
what is not yet established is who sets the criteria? Govt. As the funds owner? Society as the source of funds? A group of intellectuals?
Sevaji and gc,
would you agree with what Kris proposed above?
>>>TBT,
I think the group you are thinking of is the group of people chosen purely on the basis of merit. I say this because in our cultural context, ideas such as caste/sub-caste get easily injected into these discussions. On to your main point, the baseline criteria for what I suggested would be the gov't. In order to keep subjectivity out of it, make it strictly based on grades and performance on some qualifying test. To further reduce wastage, structure it along the lines of some loan/grant combination. It could be a loan, which is forgiven x% -like 10% for each year of successful completion. The loan at the end of the course will be the residual amount. Of course, all of this is subject to manipulation, but I can't see it being worse than what is in place now.
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by goodcitizn Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:02 am
Kris wrote:truthbetold wrote:Kris,
Ok. We have a group that has potential to perform well and that group's progress is likely to benefit society. In such a case govt can help the group with additional resources(funds etc) provided the group is selected based on some prescribed criteria.
what is not yet established is who sets the criteria? Govt. As the funds owner? Society as the source of funds? A group of intellectuals?
Sevaji and gc,
would you agree with what Kris proposed above?
>>>TBT,
I think the group you are thinking of is the group of people chosen purely on the basis of merit. I say this because in our cultural context, ideas such as caste/sub-caste get easily injected into these discussions. On to your main point, the baseline criteria for what I suggested would be the gov't. In order to keep subjectivity out of it, make it strictly based on grades and performance on some qualifying test. To further reduce wastage, structure it along the lines of some loan/grant combination. It could be a loan, which is forgiven x% -like 10% for each year of successful completion. The loan at the end of the course will be the residual amount. Of course, all of this is subject to manipulation, but I can't see it being worse than what is in place now.
Kris: I completely agree with such a system of accountability from the recipients of government subsidy for studies. I read somewhere that students who get medical seats through the reservation system and drop out after a year or two do terrible injustice both to such a system and those who were eligible for admission but couldn't get in. I really like the idea of a student of the reservation system given a student loan at no interest by the government that automatically gets written off once the student completes the course and passes. Otherwise he has to foot a portion or all of the bill based on his level of completion. That is putting teeth into what is otherwise becoming handouts regardless of performance. But our politicians won't have the balls to implement such a system of accountability. Hell, they themselves are not held accountable for their own incompetence or corruption. Good idea in theory, definitely.
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by goodcitizn Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:31 am
Nearly 50% of India's population is under the age of 26 making it the youngest country in the world. And over 25% of this population is illiterate. That is a deplorable statistic, don't you agree? Education is a priority for the future of India. The government has an important role to play in giving the underprivileged a chance to get good education. So subsidies for education are a necessity. How they ought to be granted is where the rub lies.truthbetold wrote:Gc.,goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
Good suggestion to include parent education along with economic conditions. It is somewhat on the lines us supreme court's push to find non racial selection process.
however I have not seen a reasoning behind the suggested solution. Why should govt provide assistance to students of poorer economic conditions and weak parental education background?
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:56 am
goodcitizn wrote:Nearly 50% of India's population is under the age of 26 making it the youngest country in the world. And over 25% of this population is illiterate. That is a deplorable statistic, don't you agree? Education is a priority for the future of India. The government has an important role to play in giving the underprivileged a chance to get good education. So subsidies for education are a necessity. How they ought to be granted is where the rub lies.truthbetold wrote:Gc.,goodcitizn wrote:Any system that considers the "majority" to be the "minority" with no "expiration date" is here to stay forever.
The current system only fosters casteism. Every person wants to know his caste, sub-caste and other peripheries to gain the maximum advantage from the system.
Why can't the system consider two elements -- the disadvantaged economic status; and the lack of at least a highschool diploma of the parents -- in giving preference to those who rightfully require government assistance?
Good suggestion to include parent education along with economic conditions. It is somewhat on the lines us supreme court's push to find non racial selection process.
however I have not seen a reasoning behind the suggested solution. Why should govt provide assistance to students of poorer economic conditions and weak parental education background?
A kind of merit-cum-means basis, in which the aid recipient's economic need (condition / poverty) as well as his / her worthiness as the aid recipient (based on minimum acceptable qualification / standard) are considered.
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6572
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Captain Bhankas Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:04 am
Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
hahaha@seva lambedkar. appears as if sevaji wants to lambast ambedkar.
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Re: latest comments about caste based quotas in education and jobs
by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:26 am
Captain Bhankas wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Who is this seva lambedkar? He appears to be a one track mind kinda guy with one purpose in life: to write long tracts about something that doesn't concern anyone
hahaha@seva lambedkar. appears as if sevaji wants to lambast ambedkar.
Nothing like that Captain Sahib.
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