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Reforming the Tamil language

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Reforming the Tamil language Empty Reforming the Tamil language

Post by Guest Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:43 pm

As of now we see the following ambiguities in the tamil language:
1. Same character used for "ka" and "ga" sounds in written tamil. So the words Nakula and Nagula would be represented by the same word in tamil.
2. Same character used for "pa" and "ba" sounds. So the same tamil word would be used to represent the words Kamban and Kampan.
3. Same character used for "pa" and "fa" ( and "ba") sounds. So same tamil word represents Kapur and Kafur.

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These ambiguities make tamil an imprecise language ( unlike Sanskrit). Tamil experts may consider reforming the language by introducing extra alphabets in the written script.

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Post by Kris Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:05 pm

Rashmun wrote:As of now we see the following ambiguities in the tamil language:
1. Same character used for "ka" and "ga" sounds in written tamil. So the words Nakula and Nagula would be represented by the same word in tamil.
2. Same character used for "pa" and "ba" sounds. So the same tamil word would be used to represent the words Kamban and Kampan.
3. Same character used for "pa" and "fa" ( and "ba") sounds. So same tamil word represents Kapur and Kafur.

----
These ambiguities make tamil an imprecise language ( unlike Sanskrit). Tamil experts may consider reforming the language by introducing extra alphabets in the written script.

>>>The sounds are easily managed if you know the context. Although this is not an exact parallel, think of the 'u' sound in 'put' and 'but'. If you are a native speaker, you know when to use which sound. Certain sounds like 'sha' and 'ha' are not native to Tamil, but this was addressed by borrowing them from Sanskrit.  As I mentioned in my other post, Tamil grammar even deals with these words as a subset. I am not up to date on what got cleansed out, but if  these were a casualty only because they sound 'foreign', I see that as a bigger loss.

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Post by Guest Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:09 pm

Kris wrote:
Rashmun wrote:As of now we see the following ambiguities in the tamil language:
1. Same character used for "ka" and "ga" sounds in written tamil. So the words Nakula and Nagula would be represented by the same word in tamil.
2. Same character used for "pa" and "ba" sounds. So the same tamil word would be used to represent the words Kamban and Kampan.
3. Same character used for "pa" and "fa" ( and "ba") sounds. So same tamil word represents Kapur and Kafur.

----
These ambiguities make tamil an imprecise language ( unlike Sanskrit). Tamil experts may consider reforming the language by introducing extra alphabets in the written script.

>>>The sounds are easily managed if you know the context. Although this is not an exact parallel, think of the 'u' sound in 'put' and 'but'. If you are a native speaker, you know when to use which sound. Certain sounds like 'sha' and 'ha' are not native to Tamil, but this was addressed by borrowing them from Sanskrit.  As I mentioned in my other post, Tamil grammar even deals with these words as a subset. I am not up to date on what got cleansed out, but if  these were a casualty only because they sound 'foreign', I see that as a bigger loss.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Post by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:As of now we see the following ambiguities in the tamil language:
1. Same character used for "ka" and "ga" sounds in written tamil. So the words Nakula and Nagula would be represented by the same word in tamil.
2. Same character used for "pa" and "ba" sounds. So the same tamil word would be used to represent the words Kamban and Kampan.
3. Same character used for "pa" and "fa" ( and "ba") sounds. So same tamil word represents Kapur and Kafur.

----
These ambiguities make tamil an imprecise language ( unlike Sanskrit). Tamil experts may consider reforming the language by introducing extra alphabets in the written script.

Someone that knows jack about Tamil talks about reforming & comes with suggestions; how cute.

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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:15 am

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:19 am

can you explain the name perunjithirinar? what does it mean?
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:20 am

Perunjsiththiranar. Name of a poet iduring the 3-rd Tamil Academy years.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:21 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:Perunjsiththiranar. Name of a poet iduring the 3-rd Tamil Academy years.

can you split up the name and explain the ancient poet's name and its meaning?
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:23 am

Perun - great
siththiranar - artist (especially one who draws or paints pictures). Siththiram - picture

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:24 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:Perun - great
siththiranar - artist (especially one who draws or paints pictures). Siththiram - picture

and is siththiram not a sanskrit word?
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:28 am

doubt it.

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Post by Guest Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:28 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:Perun - great
siththiranar - artist (especially one who draws or paints pictures). Siththiram - picture

http://vediccafe.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-slavic-god-perun-vedic-connection.html

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:30 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:doubt it.

try these:
https://translate.google.com/#en/hi/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/ne/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/mr/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/bn/painting

and this:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=citrakarma&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:33 am



The only non-sansktitized name is

MAX_Entropy MAN

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:35 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

The only non-sansktitized name is

MAX_Entropy MAN

man is a cognate with manushya.
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:doubt it.

try these:
https://translate.google.com/#en/hi/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/ne/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/mr/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/bn/painting

and this:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=citrakarma&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0

I could not read it,

If you are telling me that siththiram means drawing in Sanskrit, is there a reason you think the Tamil word siththiram came from Sanskrit and not the other way?

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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:15 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

The only non-sansktitized name is

MAX_Entropy MAN

man is a cognate with manushya.

Max_Entropy?

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:04 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:doubt it.

try these:
https://translate.google.com/#en/hi/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/ne/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/mr/painting
https://translate.google.com/#en/bn/painting

and this:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=citrakarma&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0

I could not read it,

If you are telling me that siththiram means drawing in Sanskrit, is there a reason you think the Tamil word siththiram came from Sanskrit and not the other way?

how can you not read it?

there is a russian word чертеж (transliterated in roman as chertezeh, and pronounced chertush), meaning a drawing, that sounds like it could be cognate with the sanskrit word. if that's the case, and i don't know that it is, the case for tamil --> sanskrit in this particular instance is weak.
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:30 pm

chiththiram to chertush is a great leap.
I doubt it greatrly. It is like saying circle turned a rectangle.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:36 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:chiththiram to chertush is a great leap.
I doubt it greatrly. It is like saying circle turned a rectangle.

like i said, i am not betting the store on it. just a suggestion. but here is the larger problem. if you truly want to go down the path of culling vadamozhi choRkkaL, you'll first have to decide what is a vadamozhichchol. to do this without the help of comparative linguists who do this for a living is a tall order.  like it or not, sanskrit and all the dravidian languages have been having sex for a long time. the problem seems to be an argument over who had the penis more frequently.   and until all that is figured out with no room for any remnant controversy, i suggest holding off on any "pure" thamizh movements, not to mention i think this is a boondoggle. we may lose a good portion of our ancient literature that we cherish so much, were we to go down this path.
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:38 pm

There are many words clearly of sanskrit origin. Atleast they should be avoided.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:40 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:There are many words clearly of sanskrit origin. Atleast they should be avoided.

do as you please. i always thought 'chiththiram' was of sanskritic origin. the 'pure' tamil word is Oviyam.
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Post by Guest Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:41 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:There are many words clearly of sanskrit origin. Atleast they should be avoided.

The greatest tamil writer of modern times Subramanya Bharati freely used Sanskrit origin words in his tamil writings. Will you disown his writings?

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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:There are many words clearly of sanskrit origin. Atleast they should be avoided.

do as you please. i always thought 'chiththiram' was of sanskritic origin. the 'pure' tamil word is Oviyam.

several words meaning the same is not uncommon. Poo and malar for flower.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:00 pm

poo? poo has a cognate in sanskrit -- phUl. if you are so allergic to sanskrit, you may want to avoid it. and phUl certainly sounds like it is cognate with flower.
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:08 pm

It might have gone from Tamil to Sanskrit. Prove that it is the other way.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:It might have gone from Tamil to Sanskrit. Prove that it is the other way.

i cannot prove anything to you since i don't have the expertise of a comparative linguist. but i just gave you a plausibility -- i think flower is cognate to phUl.

edited to add:

here is the latvian word for flower:

https://translate.google.com/#lv/en/pu%C4%B7e


Last edited by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:14 pm

>>  i just gave you a plausibility

Under our combined knowlege, it is plausible it could be Sanskrit to Tamil or Tamil to Sanskrit. 50% probability either way.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:19 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:>>  i just gave you a plausibility

Under our combined knowlege, it is plausible it could be Sanskrit to Tamil or Tamil to Sanskrit. 50% probability either way.

my guiding principle is that when i find a cognate in a european language, i tend to assume the word went sanskrit --> dravidian. if i cannot find a european cognate, then it is open to speculation. do you agree?
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Post by Guest Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:25 pm

http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/

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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:>>  i just gave you a plausibility

Under our combined knowlege, it is plausible it could be Sanskrit to Tamil or Tamil to Sanskrit. 50% probability either way.

my guiding principle is that when i find a cognate in a european language, i tend to assume the word went sanskrit --> dravidian.  if i cannot find a european cognate, then it is open to speculation. do you agree?

NOt necessarily. I find the root word. If there are are several Tamil words from the same root, then it could be a original Tamil word. See
http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/0202.html

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Post by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:45 pm

I have an open mind. I do not consider "poo" is established concretely one way or other

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