Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

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Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:34 am

It's silly for any guru to believe and preach that karma (yoga), jnana or gyana (yoga) and bhakti (yoga) can be practiced separately / independently of one another. As I had indicated in one of my blogs, that is not possible. Karma, gyana and bhakti go hand in hand, as the functions of body (including the senses), intellect and mind, respectively. Since there is nobody who can have a meaningful / practical existence as only the body, or only the intellect, or only the mind, in the same way it is not possible for karma, or gyana, or bhakti to be possible separately / independently of each other (as the products of body, intellect and mind, respectively).

In the pursuit of salvation the importance of gyana, karma and bhakti together (side by side), as also the products of intellect, body and mind, respectively, is shown in the Bhagvad Gita (BG) in Ch. 18: V. 55 (w.r.t. gyana), V. 56 (w.r.t. karma) and V. 57 (w.r.t. bhakti), while advising also the person to not get tainted by the ego (BG - Ch. 18: V. 58).

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by truthbetold on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:05 pm

Why should you pursue salvation?

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by FluteHolder on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:07 pm

Seva: Google for 'kannappan or kannappa Nayanar' and know his story/life and then re-read your post ....

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:40 pm

truthbetold wrote:Why should you pursue salvation?

you tell me, but if you are looking for salvation then you need to use the three pronged effort (gyana, karma and bhakti together).

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:47 pm

FluteHolder wrote:Seva: Google for 'kannappan or kannappa Nayanar' and know his story/life and then re-read your post ....

FH, I did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannappa_Nayanar) and noticed that the legend of Kannappan does not refute the need for bhakti, karma and gyana together for salvation / liberation.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by TruthSeeker on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:42 pm

Hi Seva,

Thanks for starting a point, which questions the paths to achieve God as prescribed in Gita - Bhakti (simple devotion, no questions asked), Gyaan (one who gets into logic, to conclude that even logic ends on illogical), Karma (one who focusses on their duty and good work), Raja (Meditating one's mind on ONE) - and the means to achieve them based on our 3 Gunas - Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas.

And how they all "overlap" within an individual.

True.

No individual is born in one Guna, though caste system desperately tries to prove so, but the Gunas that each individual has are an overlapping set of Gunas as described in Gita. 

Even the path that an individual takes in life is an overlapping path, though one or two may be prominent, the end path for each individual to seek and find God, must be, and has to be unique. No one can replicate a Buddha.

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:16 am

It is easy to see the importance of karma / action (as a product of body including the senses) and bhakti / devotion (product of mind, as a mental undertaking) together during the pursuit of salvation / liberation. However, the importance of gyana (which is due to the intellect) is sometimes overlooked by people engaged in spiritual activities (doing karma and claiming to be a bhakta) and that can have undesired consequences on the top of just failing in the spiritual pursuit. Gyana has a very important role in deciding the type and extent etc. of the action (karma) and devotion (bhakti) undertaken in the name of a spiritual activity. A gyani (employing the intellect properly during any holy or spiritual activity) not only is able to select the right path before he even embarks on the spiritual journey, but he also is less likely to follow blindly others (including the holy men, gurus, swamis and scriptures), not get exploited and taken advantage by others financially and in other ways and not engage in the mindless and tortuous activities (including for the sake of salvation) which might cause harm to him and / or others (physically or otherwise).

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by truthbetold on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:03 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Why should you pursue salvation?

you tell me, but if you are looking for salvation then you need to use the three pronged effort (gyana, karma and bhakti together).
Sevaji
As usual your logic is illogical. It is you who is professing to know how to get to salvation. Hence you are obligated to explain why should one seek salvation.
Your avoidance indicates you are concerned about the validity of your argument for salvation.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:48 am

truthbetold wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Why should you pursue salvation?

you tell me, but if you are looking for salvation then you need to use the three pronged effort (gyana, karma and bhakti together).
Sevaji
As usual your logic is illogical. It is you who is professing to know how to get to salvation. Hence you are obligated to explain why should one seek salvation.
Your avoidance indicates you are concerned about the validity of your argument for salvation.
All that Hinduism advocates is identification of one's constitution, fine tuning it to get the best out of one's ability, learning to live in harmony with nature and society and living a fulfilled life.

The analyses in the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita are essentially geared towards attaining these "goals".

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:01 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Why should you pursue salvation?

you tell me, but if you are looking for salvation then you need to use the three pronged effort (gyana, karma and bhakti together).
Sevaji
As usual your logic is illogical. It is you who is professing to know how to get to salvation. Hence you are obligated to explain why should one seek salvation.
Your avoidance indicates you are concerned about the validity of your argument for salvation.
All that Hinduism advocates is identification of one's constitution, fine tuning it to get the best out of one's ability, learning to live in harmony with nature and society and living a fulfilled life.

The analyses in the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita are essentially geared towards attaining these "goals".
Good point VP. 
TS, I am just explaining that the three (gyana, karma and bhakti) should go together, and not separately, during spiritual pursuits (including the search for salvation / liberation). I am not trying to promote the idea or encourage people to go and seek salvation.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:15 am

Incidentally, the Uddhava Gita / UG (in the Bhagavata Purana) concentrates on the so-called "bhakti (yoga)" for salvation, whereas the Bhagavad Gita / BG (in the Mahabharata) prescribes a more balanced approach (w.r.t. gyana, karma and bhakti), as indicated above (together / side by side), for salvation. That is also one of the clues that Vyasa, the author of BG, might not be the same Vyasa, listed as the author of UG.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by TruthSeeker on Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:34 pm

Hi Seva,

They may or may not go together - they may go 40% Gyaan Yoga, 50% Bhakti, 10% Raja Yoga in one individual vs. 90% Gyaan yoga and 10% Raja yoga in another.

The fact that they SHOULD all go together is not a condition, but perhaps a reality. Like I said - each path is unique and overlapping, none can just replicate another's path to achieve THE Truth. One must travel their own.

What I have learnt is that folks who are intellectually inclined on "Gyaan Path", end up rejecting it. And turn to atheism.

Thats saddening, because not all want to walk the whole 9 yards. They tend to learn from what has already been taught. They reject, and define their path. Rarely they have enough intellect to find their own.

Folks aint original in seeking, they negate what others do.

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:24 am

TS, the salvation or liberation is in understanding, getting used and being in harmony with the reality. It leads to a certain kind of freedom from bondage and attachment, which people call as the salvation / liberation and even "moksha". 

What you call "gyana", "karma" and "bhakti", with small "g", small "k" and small "b", using, respectively, intellect, body (including the senses) and mind, are basically inseparable. These (gyana, karma and bhakti) reflect the joint undertaking / effort, even unconsciously, by a person (a combination of body, mind, intellect and ego). Moreover, there is no strict number (percentage) for each of them (gyana, karma and bhakti), on how much gyana or krama or bhakti needed by a person seeking salvation? A person engaged in farming or shoe-making or army service probably will spend 90% effort in karma, 8% in bhakti and the remaining 2% in gyana, and he / she will be as much a legitimate candidate for salvation / liberation, according to the Bhagavad Gita (especially as indicated in Ch. 18 verses), as perhaps a pandit who might spend 80% time doing bhakti (pooja etc.), 15% gyana (preaching) and 5% karma. 

On the other hand, when you talk about "Gyana", "Karma" and "Bhakti" (with capital "G", "K" and "B", respectively), you are talking specifically about "darshana" (philosophies, also discussed in the Bhagavad Gita) --- respectively, as "Samkhya" Yoga (Yoga of Vision, as per the Samkhya philosophy), "Karma" Yoga  (Yoga of Karma or Action, as per the Yoga philosophy) and  "Bhakti" Yoga (as per the Vedanta philosophy).  While the Vedanta considers Brahman (Lord) as supreme and as the only means to salvation, the emphasis in the Samkhya and Yoga philosophies is with respect to spirit (purusa) and nature (prakriti).  Moreover. Samkhya (philosophy) is basically the theoretical aspect of Yoga (philosophy); conversely, Yoga is the practical aspect of the Samkhya. This also implies that having the understanding (knowledge) about reality and seeking it in terms of Samkhya produces the same results as pursuing the search for reality through practical means / efforts recommended in the Yoga. 

In addition, the ultimate outcome from the Vedanta, Samkhya and Yoga (philosophies), even while they are mutually exclusive, is still the same (they all can lead to salvation). When you say that "Gyana" (as the Vision or Wisdom of Samkhya) can lead a person becoming an atheist, that is after he understands the reality (according to the Samkhya) that Brahman, prakriti and purusha are different from one another and comprise the Reality together.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by TruthSeeker on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:21 am

I think we are talking the same fundamental point, Seva. Just saying it differently. But then how does any of these Yogas - of Knowledge, Devotion, or Karma - justify the existence of Caste System based on birth in India?

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:36 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:I think we are talking the same fundamental point, Seva. Just saying it differently. But then how does any of these Yogas - of Knowledge, Devotion, or Karma - justify the existence of Caste System based on birth in India?

Regards,
TS.
TS, it looks like you are well on your way to becoming a philosopher. Here is one of my blogs in the following link which shows that salvation and spirituality are for everyone equally (irrespective of caste and occupation, ancestral and present) and that the Yogas of Gyana, Karma and Bhakti (viz. Samkhya, Yoga and Vedanta) have nothing to do with the birth based caste system, 
http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/yoga.html

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:38 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
TruthSeeker wrote:I think we are talking the same fundamental point, Seva. Just saying it differently. But then how does any of these Yogas - of Knowledge, Devotion, or Karma - justify the existence of Caste System based on birth in India?

Regards,
TS.
TS, it looks like you are well on your way to becoming a philosopher. Here is one of my blogs in the following link which shows that salvation and spirituality are for everyone equally (irrespective of caste and occupation, ancestral and present) and that the Yogas of Gyana, Karma and Bhakti (viz. Samkhya, Yoga and Vedanta) have nothing to do with the birth based caste system, 
http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/yoga.html

While gyana (intellectual activity / pursuit), karma (action by the body, including the senses / sense organs) and bhakti (devotional aspect / attitude involving the mind) exist together in or on the part of any individual (albeit to the varying degrees and even during the spiritual pursuits), you should instead think of Gyana (“marga” or path of Vision / Wisdom),  Karma (“marga” or path of Action) and Bhakti (“marga” or path of devotion) as being exclusively related to the philosophies Samkhya, Yoga and  Vedanta, respectively. Here is more in relation to the different philosophies in Hinduism (Samkhya, Yoga and Vedanta etc.) … http://geocities.ws/lamberdar/aastika_nastika.html

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by TruthSeeker on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:28 pm

I have no doubt in my mind, that Hinduism is a zillion times more "evolved" religion in "wisdom", because it *is* the ONLY religion left in this world that makes a seeker of Truth, encourages someone to *explore independently*.

I am not governed by any rule.

I can only follow Hinduism.

Anyways, thats not the point. There is a reason I brought in Caste System in this rather "scientific Yogas" - of Intellect, Karma(action), Meditation, and Devotion - as paths envisioned by Hindus 1000s of years ago as ways to seek, instead of blindly following a "set of rules".

At some point in time, what is "practised" becomes a bigger Truth, than what is "preached".

It is indeed possible that 30 years from now, Islam will be perceived as a religion of terrorism. Possible, based on perception. Just like in my eyes, today Hinduism is the worst based on discrimination of her own.

There is a reason, I do NOT seek my Truth based on books. 

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by seven on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:44 pm

I see you take your handle really seriously.
Do you post on some spiritual boards too?

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by TruthSeeker on Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:01 pm

Hmm @ Satto.

It is not what I do at other sites, or with my handle, but it is all about how I feel within.

Yes, I have questioned Self in front of 100s at the ISKCON temple, when someone just claimed to know Krishna on the mike.

I have changed over time, but my basic nature....refuses to go away...

Best wishes and G'nite,
TS.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by pravalika nanda on Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:54 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:It's silly for any guru to believe and preach that karma (yoga), jnana or gyana (yoga) and bhakti (yoga) can be practiced separately / independently of one another. As I had indicated in one of my blogs, that is not possible. Karma, gyana and bhakti go hand in hand, as the functions of body (including the senses), intellect and mind, respectively. Since there is nobody who can have a meaningful / practical existence as only the body, or only the intellect, or only the mind, in the same way it is not possible for karma, or gyana, or bhakti to be possible separately / independently of each other (as the products of body, intellect and mind, respectively).

In the pursuit of salvation the importance of gyana, karma and bhakti together (side by side), as also the products of intellect, body and mind, respectively, is shown in the Bhagvad Gita (BG) in Ch. 18: V. 55 (w.r.t. gyana), V. 56 (w.r.t. karma) and V. 57 (w.r.t. bhakti), while advising also the person to not get tainted by the ego (BG - Ch. 18: V. 58).
why don't you just go to the gym?

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:41 am

seven wrote:I see you take your handle really seriously.
Do you post on some spiritual boards too?
The basic idea in these write-ups is to present a comprehensive picture on religion / philosophy etc. as accurately as possible and without costing any money to the reader. Btw I don't post myself on the spiritual / religious boards, although others in the past have referred to and even copied-pasted some of my blogs / essays on such boards.

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:28 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
why don't you just go to the gym?

>>> LOL. Good suggestion.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_aoi30gM1_nclBINnJpNXpoTDA&usp=sharing (E8)

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Re: Should salvation be pursued by "practicing" gyana, karma and bhakti together, or separately?

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