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a question on bharat natyam...

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Marathadi-Saamiyaar
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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:33 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:how do they all (the dancers and the musicians) keep themselves from sleeping while performing?
Try the following BN-based dance / song, 



why do you say that the dance/song in the video is based on bn?
can you or anyone else really say, along with evidence / proof, that it has no relation to BN?

you are the one who posted the video, saying that the dance/song in the video is based on bn. please explain why you said so.

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Post by Maria S Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:41 am

Hello Tracy!

I learned BN for many years..”technically” would call myself just slightly about average:)
But, I agree with you..if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

To me the late actress Padmini had such a presence, when she performed…all the tech parts and movements aside, had the mix of various emotions..joy, sadness, fear, anger, playful, devotion..feeling romantic-sexy, and being *shy/pretend shy (!) etc.

*Naanam (நாணம்) ..people may not even know what that means anymore!
I never get tired of her dance performances in the classic movie “Thillana Mohanambal”..




On a different performing art..recently, I watched a "Kathak performance" by a medical student. I must say..knowing nothing technically about Kathak, it was just a pleasure to watch..she was so expressive and had that electrifying-mesmerizing presence. Wanted to watch more!
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Post by Guest Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:49 am

Maria S wrote:Hello Tracy!

I learned BN for many years..”technically” would call myself just slightly about average:)
But, I agree with you..if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

To me the late actress Padmini had such a presence, when she performed…all the tech parts and movements aside, had the mix of various emotions..joy, sadness, fear, anger, playful, devotion..feeling romantic-sexy, and being *shy/pretend shy (!) etc.

*Naanam (நாணம்) ..people may not even know what that means anymore!
I never get tired of her dance performances in the classic movie “Thillana Mohanambal”..




On a different performing art..recently, I watched a "Kathak performance" by a medical student. I must say..knowing nothing technically about Kathak, it was just a pleasure to watch..she was so expressive and had that electrifying-mesmerizing presence. Wanted to watch more!


thanks M. always a delight to know your opinions.

I like Padmini. She did a couple of movies with Raj Kapoor. And I know what you mean. I remember liking a song of hers where she is dancing under a waterfall. I think it's titled 'ha main pyar kiya to kya julm kiya'... I will post it later. It was not really a dance, but full electrifying screen presence of hers.

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Post by Maria S Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:01 am

Thank you Tracy:)

I know she acted in some Hindi movies..will look for your post and video later.
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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:05 pm

Maria S wrote:it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!)

why would you attend a performance that puts you to sleep?

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Post by southindian Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:23 pm

swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!)

why would you attend a performance that puts you to sleep?
Thomas, have you asked the same question from your partner?

Maybe the performance is really good and satisfying.
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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:01 pm

Maria S wrote:if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

it's quite simple: if one does not like barathanattiyam, one should not watch it.

there are, however, people who appreciate and are excited by the interplay of rhythm, melody, movement, and gestures, the varying accents on each of these components, even surprises such as sudden silence and stoppage of movement.

if one is not sensitive to any of this, as someone here said, "it's alright"; do give in to the pleasures you derive from shrill, bollywood songs, karthik rohan dancing in turkish costumes, and a troupe of women swirling in mughal skirts, their heads covered, and faces veiled in gangoots.

it really is alright.

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Post by southindian Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:09 pm

swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

it's quite simple: if one does not like barathanattiyam, one should not watch it.

there are, however, people who appreciate and are excited by the interplay of rhythm, melody, movement, and gestures, the varying accents on each of these components, even surprises such as sudden silence and stoppage of movement.

if one is not sensitive to any of this, as someone here said, "it's alright"; do give in to the pleasures you derive from shrill, bollywood songs, karthik rohan dancing in turkish costumes, and a troupe of women swirling in mughal skirts, their heads covered, and faces veiled in gangoots.

it really is alright.
Thomas,

Have you ever thought about the fact that what you call exciting may not be exciting for many and vice-versa.

What seems to be bothering you with someone not liking YOUR choices?
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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:31 pm

southindian wrote:
swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

it's quite simple: if one does not like barathanattiyam, one should not watch it.

there are, however, people who appreciate and are excited by the interplay of rhythm, melody, movement, and gestures, the varying accents on each of these components, even surprises such as sudden silence and stoppage of movement.

if one is not sensitive to any of this, as someone here said, "it's alright"; do give in to the pleasures you derive from shrill, bollywood songs, karthik rohan dancing in turkish costumes, and a troupe of women swirling in mughal skirts, their heads covered, and faces veiled in gangoots.

it really is alright.
Thomas,

Have you ever thought about the fact that what you call exciting may not be exciting for many and vice-versa.

What seems to be bothering you with someone not liking YOUR choices?

vivek, xw beatrix may have an answer for you; she's the one who started this thread, puzzled and insecure about why some here are not making the bollywood choices she is making, and what it is about barathanattiyam she's missing.

vivek, tell her that it's alright.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:07 pm

swapna wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:how do they all (the dancers and the musicians) keep themselves from sleeping while performing?
Try the following BN-based dance / song, 



why do you say that the dance/song in the video is based on bn?
can you or anyone else really say, along with evidence / proof, that it has no relation to BN?

you are the one who posted the video, saying that the dance/song in the video is based on bn. please explain why you said so.
As you can see from Maria's expert response on BN in the above, this particular dance / song (sorry, I can't find the English subtitles for lyrics) has several important BN features (among other things, the use of "naanam" and other facial / eyes related emotions by the dancer / singer). I was waiting for some person with the actual BN experience to put down the info. here, which Maria finally did and thanks to her for that.
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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:08 pm

Maria S wrote:I learned BN for many years..”

why did you learn bn for many years?

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Post by southindian Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:35 pm

swapna wrote:
southindian wrote:
swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:if you do not have the “eyes of an expert “ of a performing art watching all the perfect technical aspects and movements..and just a person who wants to watch and enjoy the performance..it’s hard to keep oneself awake and absorbed (!) , unless the performing artist has an electrifying presence.. one just can’t take their eyes off!

it's quite simple: if one does not like barathanattiyam, one should not watch it.

there are, however, people who appreciate and are excited by the interplay of rhythm, melody, movement, and gestures, the varying accents on each of these components, even surprises such as sudden silence and stoppage of movement.

if one is not sensitive to any of this, as someone here said, "it's alright"; do give in to the pleasures you derive from shrill, bollywood songs, karthik rohan dancing in turkish costumes, and a troupe of women swirling in mughal skirts, their heads covered, and faces veiled in gangoots.

it really is alright.
Thomas,

Have you ever thought about the fact that what you call exciting may not be exciting for many and vice-versa.

What seems to be bothering you with someone not liking YOUR choices?

vivek, xw beatrix may have an answer for you; she's the one who started this thread, puzzled and insecure about why some here are not making the bollywood choices she is making, and what it is about barathanattiyam she's missing.

vivek, tell her that it's alright.
Thomas,

Are you an idiot or a 5 year old crying and wailing with she-started thread tantrum.

Why don't YOU... a so-called adult accept another persons (Maria's) choice? Isn't it alright for YOU too?


Yay, Vivek Murthy is now a US Surgeon General and you appear to be excited. Smile Continue your excitement and Thanks for bringing him up here in conversation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy
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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:42 pm



I have one question:

Why is it called Bharat NatyaM ? and not IndiaNatyam ?

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Post by Propagandhi711 Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:05 pm

swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:I learned BN for many years..”

why did you learn bn for many years?

why not? 
a) are you upset that kishtian girl may have come in touch with hindooos? 
b) I know it sticks in your geriatric craw that she's on good terms with most here except the most uppity douches. is this aggressive query related to that feeling?
c) why did your d learn hindi from a naarthindian teacher, who were you trying to sidle upto at that time in early 90s? was this just before w left for OC?

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:14 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:I like Padmini. She did a couple of movies with Raj Kapoor. And I know what you mean. I remember liking a song of hers where she is dancing under a waterfall. I think it's titled 'ha main pyar kiya to kya julm kiya'... I will post it later. It was not really a dance, but full electrifying screen presence of hers.

Here is Padmini doing the dance in 1957 Hindi movie "Pardesi" (Song: Na Ja Balam mere Na/ na dir dim; Cast: Padmini, Nargis,oleg,Balraj Sahni etc.; music: Anil Biswas; Singer: Lata Mangeshkar)... the Russian / English version video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q81h3pC5Rg0

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Post by swapna Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:29 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
swapna wrote:
Maria S wrote:I learned BN for many years..”

why did you learn bn for many years?

why not? 
a) are you upset that kishtian girl may have come in touch with hindooos? 
b) I know it sticks in your geriatric craw that she's on good terms with most here except the most uppity douches. is this aggressive query related to that feeling?
c) why did your d learn hindi from a naarthindian teacher, who were you trying to sidle upto at that time in early 90s? was this just before w left for OC?

she's NOT on good terms with most here. that's why she rarely posts these days. 

she stupidly wasted over ten years of sycophancy towards you all; I always knew that it was a useless strategy; so great is your insecurity about your own beliefs and culture, none of her flattery would be enough for you to feel good about yourselves!

and now, no matter how much you defend her, you won't gain access to her, and sadly, you're stuck, for the rest of your life, with that tropical forest of dense, black, curly hair on v's legs, about which you once complained so bitterly in the chat room.

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Post by bw Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:17 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

As you can see from Maria's expert response on BN in the above, this particular dance / song (sorry, I can't find the English subtitles for lyrics) has several important BN features (among other things, the use of "naanam" and other facial / eyes related emotions by the dancer / singer). I was waiting for some person with the actual BN experience to put down the info. here, which Maria finally did and thanks to her for that.

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.

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Post by Guest Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:17 pm

i see some mean-girlish content deleted.

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Post by Hellsangel Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:40 pm

bw wrote:

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.
How so?
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Post by bw Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:50 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.
How so?

oh, coz my views are not influenced by a pressing desire to agree with seva and get into an endless thank you loop.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:56 pm

bw wrote:

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.

did you perchance take classes there while amala was a student?
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Post by Guest Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:00 pm

people who make their friends help them re-post their previously deleted content while trying to appear cool are highly reliable. sure. 

life mein kitna kucch seekhne ko baaki hai.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:04 pm

is the senior teacher in this video, rukmini devi arundale?
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Post by bw Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:09 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.

did you perchance take classes there while amala was a student?

yes - she was a few years my senior. she was a very popular girl and i recall the principal giving us a lecture at "tapovanam' about the school not being a lovers' lane coz of her batch's general behaviour on campus. she always had a bunch of boys around her.


Last edited by bw on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:12 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.

did you perchance take classes there while amala was a student?

yes - she was a few years my senior. she was a very popular girl and i recall the principal giving us a lecture at "tapovanam' about the school not being a lover's lane coz of her batch's general behaviour on campus. she always had a bunch of boys around her.

haha! not at all surprising.
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Post by bw Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:20 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:is the senior teacher in this video, rukmini devi arundale?

oh, wow, haven't seen this video - i should watch the whole thing. brings me back a lot of memories though i hated the uniform back then!

i skimmed through the video and that lady does not seem to be rukmini devi arundale aka athai. she was much older and had a lot more grey hair, from what i recall.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:27 pm

more recent video of a demo nature from headquarters:
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Post by bw Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:03 pm



athai (RDA) from 2:22 or so of this video. the other lady is sarada hoffman.

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Post by Maria S Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:32 am

Thank you dear Seva, southindian, and of course DUT! Always nice to see you all:) 

Nice video Seva..Padmini looks so lovely. Hope all is well with you. take care.

Dear Tracy,

Speaking of lovely, was talking to someone and was reminded of Padmini's role in "Mera Naam Joker" with Raj Kapoor. 

Looked it up...forget one shoulder strap hollywood evening gowns..and today's mid chest exposing sexy gowns..Padmini looks pretty and sexy (the less make up- the prettier most women are, imo!).. I guess she was among the pioneer feminists who took their bras off (!)..felt more liberated!


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Post by Guest Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:36 am

thanks M Smile

here's the song that I mentioned y'day. Same sari style. Loved it. Side story: my mom laughs how I have typical memories of some scenes, songs, or dances from movies seen in childhood. Guess even as a kid i had an eye for everything unconventional and loved and appreciated it.


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Post by Maria S Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:44 am

Oh wow! Beautiful in black and white!

Thank you Tracy.

Once the legendary actor Sivaji Ganesan  was asked about the actresses he enjoyed being paired with..and he replied Padmini and K.R.Vijaya. 

Now I can see why..they were some bold-independent, talented and naturally seductive women indeed!
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:39 am

Maria S wrote:Thank you dear Seva, southindian, and of course DUT! Always nice to see you all:) 

Nice video Seva..Padmini looks so lovely. Hope all is well with you. take care.

Dear Tracy,

Speaking of lovely, was talking to someone and was reminded of Padmini's role in "Mera Naam Joker" with Raj Kapoor. 

Looked it up...forget one shoulder strap hollywood evening gowns..and today's mid chest exposing sexy gowns..Padmini looks pretty and sexy (the less make up- the prettier most women are, imo!).. I guess she was among the pioneer feminists who took their bras off (!)..felt more liberated!



Thanks dear Maria. I am doing fine ... 'hope you are doing well too.
Yes, Padmini was pretty and very talented.
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:54 am

bw wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

As you can see from Maria's expert response on BN in the above, this particular dance / song (sorry, I can't find the English subtitles for lyrics) has several important BN features (among other things, the use of "naanam" and other facial / eyes related emotions by the dancer / singer). I was waiting for some person with the actual BN experience to put down the info. here, which Maria finally did and thanks to her for that.

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.
There is a basic difference in your thinking on BN and my view of BN. You see BN only as that taught in the dance class (dance and song routines during learning initially, and nothing more). To me, BN not only includes those initial dances and songs in the learning class / stage, but also their applications later to create more complex numbers (songs / dances).

It looks like the real English for you probably means only the alphabet (letters "a" through "z", which you learnt in the beginning in the English class), whereas the words created by using those alphabet (letters "a" through "z") are not the true English according to you.
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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:17 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
bw wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

As you can see from Maria's expert response on BN in the above, this particular dance / song (sorry, I can't find the English subtitles for lyrics) has several important BN features (among other things, the use of "naanam" and other facial / eyes related emotions by the dancer / singer). I was waiting for some person with the actual BN experience to put down the info. here, which Maria finally did and thanks to her for that.

oh, all you wanted was someone who has "actual" BN experience, as in 'learning' for a few years?  me me me! i qualify too and based on my years of learning (that too at the centre of this BN business), i declare that those two videos you posted have nothing to do with BN.  

by the way, am a more reliable expert on this.
There is a basic difference in your thinking on BN and my view of BN. You see BN only as that taught in the dance class (dance and song routines during learning initially, and nothing more). To me, BN not only includes those initial dances and songs in the learning class / stage, but also their applications later to create more complex numbers (songs / dances).

It looks like the real English for you probably means only the alphabet (letters "a" through "z", which you learnt in the beginning in the English class), whereas the words created by using those alphabet (letters "a" through "z") are not the true English according to you.

you are claiming all languages that use an alphabet are based on english just because english has an alphabet. incidentally, why did you choose BN and not kathak?

by the way, i wouldn't call these 'more complex' numbers. this is like saying a trashy novel that has a few lines from shakespeare is a 'complex' version of shakespeare.

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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:21 pm

max, thanks for that BBC video. i watched all six parts of it from youtube. triggered some fond memories.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:42 pm

bw wrote:max, thanks for that BBC video. i watched all six parts of it from youtube. triggered some fond memories.

you're welcome. i enjoyed watching them too. lots of fond memories here too of sight-adichufying kalakshetra girls.

on a different subject, and this is not just addressed to you alone, but to others who have may have learned BN at some point and got jaded with its same old nayika pining themes, have you watched savitha sastry's one woman dance theatre? there are plenty of short clips on youtube, but no full length performance.  i find her story intriguing. basically her husband and artistic partner comes up with contemporary stories for her performance which she translates into dance, and gets rajkumar bharathi (bharathiyar's grandson and a musician and composer of some repute) to compose the music.  clearly she is technically very accomplished but i am curious about how a modern story line works in the BN context.  she emphasizes that she is NOT attempting fusion, that she artistically faithful to BN. i am curious enough to want to watch her the next time she comes to town.

here is an interview where she explains her process (ignore the fawning dallas mamis):
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Post by Kris Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:55 pm

bw wrote:

athai (RDA) from 2:22 or so of this video. the other lady is sarada hoffman.
>>>Arundale was quite a bit older than her from what I have read. The locals were apparently scandalized over the marriage to a foreigner.  I remember my grandmother saying she went to the reception and her father was very upset with her over that. There was also Radha Burnier, a student of RA, who married a Swiss guy and the rumor was that he was gay. This was according a relative of hers who thought she became very bitter because of it.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:21 pm

i think she has the right idea of being iconoclastic in breaking free of the shackles of spiritualism, while being faithful to the aesthetics of BN. another interesting interview.

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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:54 pm

i enjoyed the second interview. she comes across a very articulate and interesting person. the interviewer also came across very intelligent. i couldn't endure the first interview coz of those two akka-fying women and gave up after a few minutes.

i used to enjoy watching dance dramas (psst, seva, they were BN based) much more than the individual performances.

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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:58 pm

oh, wow, had no idea padmini had sunk to wet sari in rain level.

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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:02 pm


Thanks DUT.

I don't know anything about BN.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:39 pm

bw wrote:i enjoyed the second interview. she comes across a very articulate and interesting person. the interviewer also came across very intelligent. i couldn't endure the first interview coz of those two akka-fying women and gave up after a few minutes.

i used to enjoy watching dance dramas (psst, seva, they were BN based) much more than the individual performances.

i wish someone would release CM too from its hidebound tradition, while not losing even an iota of its aesthetics. i think the time is ripe for someone to do in CM what she is attempting to do in BN, but i also think it is going to be much tougher for many reasons. people like t m krishna and sanjay have been attempting things on a small scale, but nothing like this.
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Post by Guest Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:53 pm

love the passions M manages to evoke lol.

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Post by Kris Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:00 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:love the passions M manages to evoke lol.
>>>Which M? Some kind of dance?

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Post by Guest Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:06 pm

Kris wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:love the passions M manages to evoke lol.
>>>Which M? Some kind of dance?

lol I meant Maria...

BN also evoked quite a few, didn't expect that.

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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:i enjoyed the second interview. she comes across a very articulate and interesting person. the interviewer also came across very intelligent. i couldn't endure the first interview coz of those two akka-fying women and gave up after a few minutes.

i used to enjoy watching dance dramas (psst, seva, they were BN based) much more than the individual performances.

i wish someone would release CM too from its hidebound tradition, while not losing even an iota of its aesthetics. i think the time is ripe for someone to do in CM what she is attempting to do in BN, but i also think it is going to be much tougher for many reasons. people like t m krishna and sanjay have been attempting things on a small scale, but nothing like this.

i am not sure if i totally agree with changing something just to attract audience. exploration, improvisation and innovation should be done as a creative exercise, not to generate mass appeal. aren't people like l.shankar doing it wrt carnatic music?  are you talking just of the vocal music and the kacheri structure?

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Post by Kris Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:14 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
Kris wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:love the passions M manages to evoke lol.
>>>Which M? Some kind of dance?

lol I meant Maria...

BN also evoked quite a few, didn't expect that.
>>>Our Maria? I need to read the whole thread...maybe not.....

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:15 pm

bw wrote:i am not sure if i totally agree with changing something just to attract audience. exploration, improvisation and innovation should be done as a creative exercise, not to generate mass appeal. aren't people like l.shankar doing it wrt carnatic music?  are you talking just of the vocal music and the kacheri structure?

yes l.shankar has been doing it in instrumental music and i love what he is doing and i would certainly not recommend doing something for mass appeal. i am talking about vocal music, but not just the kacheri structure. i am talking about an infusion of composed vocal music that looks for inspiration outside divinity.

much of the innovation in CM has been of the l.shankar type. new instruments heretofore not used in CM like the mandolin and the saxophone. but not much else by way of kacheri structure which has remained unchanged since the ariyakkudi era, or composed vocal music.
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Post by bw Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:i am not sure if i totally agree with changing something just to attract audience. exploration, improvisation and innovation should be done as a creative exercise, not to generate mass appeal. aren't people like l.shankar doing it wrt carnatic music?  are you talking just of the vocal music and the kacheri structure?

yes l.shankar has been doing it in instrumental music and i love what he is doing and i would certainly not recommend doing something for mass appeal. i am talking about vocal music, but not just the kacheri structure. i am talking about an infusion of composed vocal music that looks for inspiration outside divinity.

much of the innovation in CM has been of the l.shankar type. new instruments heretofore not used in CM like the mandolin and the saxophone. but not much else by way of kacheri structure which has remained unchanged since the ariyakkudi era, or composed vocal music.

got it - no secular carnatic music (yet).

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:43 am

continuing the conversation from yesterday...

CM doesn't have an iota of departure from established practice, even of the kind i think would be acceptable to the establishment -- translating secular epics like the silappadikAram and manimEgalai into music. BN can take credit for doing this and in more recent years looking to modern novels (can't believe i am referring to a mid twentieth century novel as modern, but this is the mylapore establishment we are talking about!) like sivagAmiyin sabatham for source material.  this could easily be a first step in CM before exploring other kinds of more drastic heterodoxy, of the savitha sastry kind.

to be honest, CM was all around me in my youth, but i didn't pay much attention to it. i am sure it was because i always associated it with religion which at best only held marginal interest. it was only well into adulthood, in grad school of all places when i was seeking a connection to what i had left behind, that i learned to look past the themes themselves and learned to appreciate music for music's sake, when i truly fell in love with CM.  but i think the time is well past for some changes to become acceptable, but i am afraid departure from divinity as the source for inspiration will not be easy.  

then there is the view that it doesn't matter because music is pure sound, just like there is a view that dance is pure movement. but i find this unacceptable.  enjoyment of the poetry in composed vocal music is a good part of the pleasure of CM for me. it is ironic that as i've moved further and further away from religion, the compositions themselves never fail to move me. how can one not be moved by the total surrender and overflowing love resulting in melting poetry, even it is aimed at an abstruse entity!
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