Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

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Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:50 pm

Raghupati Sahai, better known by his nom de plume of 'Firaq Gorakhpuri', was a Professor of English, but he is most famous for being one of the greatest Urdu poets of modern India. He was an Uttar Pradeshi.

Firaq considered urdu to be a polished, sophisticated, cultured, and refined language; he regarded hindi to be a 'language of the rustics'.*

Note: Hindustani, the spoken hindi of urban India, is closer to urdu than to any hindi dialect spoken in the hindi speaking belt of rural North India. It could even be argued that spoken hindi of urban India, spoken urdu of urban India , and hindustani are the same language with very minor differences.

----
There are several other celebrated non-Muslim writers and poets who have
pride of the place in Urdu literature. Raghupati Sahai Firaq Gorakhpuri,
was one of the great Urdu poets who won Janpeeth Award in early seventies.
He was so proud of Urdu that he described Hindi as the 'language of the
rustics'.


http://www.sacw.net/aii/urdu.html

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by garam_kuta on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:Raghupati Sahai, better known by his nom de plume of 'Firaq Gorakhpuri', was a Professor of English, but he is most famous for being one of the greatest Urdu poets of modern India. He was an Uttar Pradeshi.

Firaq considered urdu to be a polished, sophisticated, cultured, and refined language; he regarded hindi to be a 'language of the rustics'.*

Note: Hindustani, the spoken hindi of urban India, is closer to urdu than to any hindi dialect spoken in the hindi speaking belt of rural North India. It could even be argued that spoken hindi of urban India, spoken urdu of urban India , and hindustani are the same language with very minor differences.

----
There are several other celebrated non-Muslim writers and poets who have
pride of the place in Urdu literature. Raghupati Sahai Firaq Gorakhpuri,
was one of the great Urdu poets who won Janpeeth Award in early seventies.
He was so proud of Urdu that he described Hindi as the 'language of the
rustics'.


http://www.sacw.net/aii/urdu.html

nom de plume, eh? quelle bite Rolling Eyes

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:33 pm

Urdu and Hindi are dialects of the same basic language. You exaggerate by giving these languages alternate names like Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani. And yeah I forgot your Duckini.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Urdu and Hindi are dialects of the same basic language. You exaggerate by giving these languages alternate names like Hindi, Urdu, and Hindustani. And yeah I forgot your Duckini.

then why did the urdu poet Firaq say that "hindi is the language of rustics" whereas urdu is polished, sophisticated, cultured and refined?

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:48 pm

From the Wikipedia page:

Standard Urdu is often contrasted with Standard Hindi.[48] Apart from religious associations, the differences are largely restricted to the standard forms: Standard Urdu is conventionally written in the Nastaliq style of the Persian alphabet and relies heavily on Persian and Arabic as a source for technical and literary vocabulary,[49] whereas Standard Hindi is conventionally written in Devanāgarī and draws on Sanskrit.[50] However, both have large numbers of Arabic, Persian and Sanskrit words, and most linguists consider them to be two standardised forms of the same language,[51][52] and consider the differences to be sociolinguistic,[53] though a few classify them separately.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:From the Wikipedia page:

Standard Urdu is often contrasted with Standard Hindi.[48] Apart from religious associations, the differences are largely restricted to the standard forms: Standard Urdu is conventionally written in the Nastaliq style of the Persian alphabet and relies heavily on Persian and Arabic as a source for technical and literary vocabulary,[49] whereas Standard Hindi is conventionally written in Devanāgarī and draws on Sanskrit.[50] However, both have large numbers of Arabic, Persian and Sanskrit words, and most linguists consider them to be two standardised forms of the same language,[51][52] and consider the differences to be sociolinguistic,[53] though a few classify them separately.

I know all that. And the point about standard hindi and standard urdu is well taken. Roughly speaking, standard hindi = standard urdu = hindustani. But i grew up in Uttar Pradesh and got good marks in hindi in class 10 and class 12. So why is it that i am unable to converse or even understand hindi dialects like Braja, maithili, bhojpuri, awadhi, etc.?

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:38 pm

There are dialects of Tamil that I have a very hard time with. This despite taking formal Tamil through all years of middle and high school. For example spoken Sri Lankan Tamil is nearly incomprehensible to me. Doesn't mean it's a different language.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:51 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:There are dialects of Tamil that I have a very hard time with. This despite taking formal Tamil through all years of middle and high school. For example spoken Sri Lankan Tamil is nearly incomprehensible to me. Doesn't mean it's a different language.

could it be that when Firaq said "Hindi is the language of rustics" he was referring to the hindi dialects like braja, awadhi, bhojpuri, maithilee, etc. With respect to Sri Lankan Tamil, i understand there are multiple dialects of Sri Lankan Tamil. This is an interesting article about one of these dialects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffna_Tamil_dialect

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:52 pm

Germans don't understand much of Swiss German, but it's not considered a separate language.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Germans don't understand much of Swiss German, but it's not considered a separate language.

So why did the great Urdu poet Firaq Gorakhpuri say that "Hindi is the language of rustics"?

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by garam_kuta on Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:23 pm

i recall pico iyer in his "video nights in kathmandu", wrote that over 1900 dialects of multiple languages spoken around in India. I am not sure how much he had personally experienced that but he's a reasonably credible writer of travelogues. My personal experience is almost every 100 km you see variations, subtle and strong, both in kannada and in thamizh.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:28 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Germans don't understand much of Swiss German, but it's not considered a separate language.

So why did the great Urdu poet Firaq Gorakhpuri say that "Hindi is the language of rustics"?

Prejudice and/or conceit.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by silvermani on Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:14 am

Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya" means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by southindian on Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:22 am

Rashmun wrote:Raghupati Sahai, better known by his nom de plume of 'Firaq Gorakhpuri', was a Professor of English, but he is most famous for being one of the greatest Urdu poets of modern India. He was an Uttar Pradeshi.

Firaq considered urdu to be a polished, sophisticated, cultured, and refined language; he regarded hindi to be a 'language of the rustics'.*

Note: Hindustani, the spoken hindi of urban India, is closer to urdu than to any hindi dialect spoken in the hindi speaking belt of rural North India. It could even be argued that spoken hindi of urban India, spoken urdu of urban India , and hindustani are the same language with very minor differences.

----
There are several other celebrated non-Muslim writers and poets who have
pride of the place in Urdu literature. Raghupati Sahai Firaq Gorakhpuri,
was one of the great Urdu poets who won Janpeeth Award in early seventies.
He was so proud of Urdu that he described Hindi as the 'language of the
rustics'.


http://www.sacw.net/aii/urdu.html
Do you know any of these Hindi or Urdu? How do you differentiate when someone speaks Hindi or Urdu and says they hate the other?

You are a jerk who pretends to know Southindian and Northindian languages.

You write in English. Smile

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by garam_kuta on Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:49 am

silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya" means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.

I know someone, who is not a native urdhu speaker, in social gatherings/parties, prefers to use 'kudha hafiz' to all who are familiar with it only because it sounds so nice compared to ciao/bye/adios/arivedarci/sayonara etc., interestingly it's of persian origin, i believe

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:48 pm

silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya" means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.

On the other side of the border they use the Nastaliq script to write Punjabi so is Pakistani Punjabi a different language than Indian Punjabi? Script is just a representational tool and not central to language identity.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by pravalika nanda on Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:27 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya" means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.

I know someone, who is not a native urdhu speaker, in social gatherings/parties, prefers to use 'kudha hafiz' to all who are familiar with it only because it sounds so nice compared to ciao/bye/adios/arivedarci/sayonara etc., interestingly it's of persian origin, i believe
yes, "god willing."

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Appalamma on Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:35 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:There are dialects of Tamil that I have a very hard time with. This despite taking formal Tamil through all years of middle and high school. For example spoken Sri Lankan Tamil is nearly incomprehensible to me. Doesn't mean it's a different language.
When I watched Dheepan I didn't need any subtitles for the Srilankan Tamil part. I could understand it quite well.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Hellsangel on Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:55 pm

On a different note, Il Professore, you should google commonalities between Sinhalese and Kannada especially in their scripts.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:21 pm

I'll do that but I remember reading that Sinhalese is an IE language. Is that not true?

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:35 pm

silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya"(in Urdu) means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.
The same as "Unke 'pujya pita' ka 'dehant' ho gaya" (in Hindi -- devanagari script), and
"Unke 'dear father' ka 'death' ho gaya" (in Roman -- Latin script)


Is the basic language for the sentence in the above is same or different, even though might be written using three different types of scripts (Urdu or modified Farsi, Devanagari / Hindi and Latin / English) and in addition might contain a few words (father and death for example) from different languages (Farsi, Hindi and English)?

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:56 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya"(in Urdu) means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.
The same as "Unke 'pujya pita' ka 'dehant' ho gaya" (in Hindi -- devanagari script), and
"Unke 'dear father' ka 'death' ho gaya" (in Roman -- Latin script)


Is the basic language for the sentence in the above is same or different, even though might be written using three different types of scripts (Urdu or modified Farsi, Devanagari / Hindi and Latin / English) and in addition might contain a few words (father and death for example) from different languages (Farsi, Hindi and English)?

the words "ho gaya" (has occurred) constitute the verb. Every verb of an urdu sentence will be a simple Hindustani word. The way to classify any sentence on the basis of language is through its verb.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by garam_kuta on Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
silvermani wrote:Urdu has its own script and lot of the words are very different from Hindi. Without googling can someone say what "Unke waalid saab ka intekhaal ho gaya"(in Urdu) means? That being said, Firaq probably loved urdu as it was the language of the nawabs.
The same as "Unke 'pujya pita' ka 'dehant' ho gaya" (in Hindi -- devanagari script), and
"Unke 'dear father' ka 'death' ho gaya" (in Roman -- Latin script)


Is the basic language for the sentence in the above is same or different, even though might be written using three different types of scripts (Urdu or modified Farsi, Devanagari / Hindi and Latin / English) and in addition might contain a few words (father and death for example) from different languages (Farsi, Hindi and English)?

the words "ho gaya" (has occurred)  constitute the verb. Every verb of an urdu sentence will be a simple Hindustani word. The way to classify any sentence on the basis of language is through its verb.
Rashmun wrote: நீ ஒரு முட்டாள்

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:55 pm

http://matadornetwork.com/abroad/why-hindi-urdu-is-one-language-and-arabic-is-several/

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://matadornetwork.com/abroad/why-hindi-urdu-is-one-language-and-arabic-is-several/

"mutual intelligibility" is an imprecise criterion for determining whether hindi and urdu are the same language. As i pointed out i am unable to converse in or comprehend the various hindi dialects of rural north india. (Although speakers of these dialects can converse with me because they can converse in hindustani.)

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:23 pm

http://unravellingmag.com/articles/ausbausprachen-abstandsprachen-define-language/

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:37 pm

When a person who speaks it as a third language is able to understand good bits of both "languages" and can't distinguish between the "two" it's time to call them the same language. Since many Northindians seem to think Urdu is more refined, maybe you should just accept Urdu as the name for "both" your "languages".

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://unravellingmag.com/articles/ausbausprachen-abstandsprachen-define-language/

Better, but still not good enough. See this:

Since Urdu was created by the combination of Persian and Hindustani,  the question   arises   whether  Urdu  is a special kind of Persian or a special kind of Hindustani?  The answer is that it is a special kind of Hindustani, not a special kind of Persian.  This needs to be explained.
What determines the language to which a sentence belongs is the verb used in it (and not the noun, adjective, etc.).  For example, if I say “Mr. Ram, you and your wife aaiye tomorrow night for dinner at my home at 8 p.m.” this sentence is a Hindi sentence and not a English sentence, although 15 out of the 16 words used in it are in English.  Why?  Because the verb (aaiye) used in it is a Hindi word, not an English word.
In Urdu all verbs are in simple, colloquial Hindi (which is called Hindustani  or  Khariboli).  Many  of  the nouns and adjectives in Urdu are from Persian (or Arabic**), as are many of the forms of poetry e.g.ghazal, masnavi, qaseeda, masriya, etc. but the verb will always be from Hindustani.  If the verb is from Persian it would become a Persian sentence, not an Urdu sentence, and if the verb is Arabic it would become an Arabic sentence.

The language to which a sentence belongs is determined by the verbs used in it, not the nouns or adjectives. In Urdu, all the verbs are in simple Hindi (which is called Hindustani or Khadi Boli).We may take any Urdu sher (couplet) of any Urdu poet and we will find that the verb is always in simple Hindi (though many nouns and adjectives may be Persian or Arabic). For example, Ghalib says:

“ dekho mujhe jo deeda-e-ibrat_nigaah ho

meree suno jo gosh-e-naseehat_niyosh hai”

The verbs ‘ dekho', ‘ suno', ‘ hai' are all simple Hindi, though the nouns or adjectives may be Persian or Arabic.

Thus Urdu is a special kind of Hindustani (or Khariboli), not a special kind of Persian.  I am emphasizing this because had Urdu been a special kind of Persian it would have been a foreign language.  The fact that it is a special kind of Khariboli (or Hindustani) shows that it is a desi or indigenous language.  This answers the criticism of those who call Urdu a foreign Language.
Arabic and Persian are foreign languages, but Urdu is an indigenous language.


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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When a person who speaks it as a third language is able to understand good bits of both "languages" and can't distinguish between the "two" it's time to call them the same language. Since many Northindians seem to think Urdu is more refined, maybe you should just accept Urdu as the name for "both" your "languages".

in urdu the nouns and adjectives may be persian or arabic. this is not the case in Hindustani. Urdu is a special form of Hindustani.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:46 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When a person who speaks it as a third language is able to understand good bits of both "languages" and can't distinguish between the "two" it's time to call them the same language. Since many Northindians seem to think Urdu is more refined, maybe you should just accept Urdu as the name for "both" your "languages".

in urdu the nouns and adjectives may be persian or arabic. this is not the case in Hindustani. Urdu is a special form of Hindustani.

You are on the right track though when you suggest that the name of the "national language" needs to be changed. Maulana Azad had wanted it to be called Hindustani. But there was a lot of opposition to this from the Hindi fanatics (many of them sadly from my state) who insisted on the "Hindi" name. Nehru told Azad that what's the big deal in a name, and the language of the common man will continue to be Hindustani (and not sanskritised Hindi).

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:50 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When a person who speaks it as a third language is able to understand good bits of both "languages" and can't distinguish between the "two" it's time to call them the same language. Since many Northindians seem to think Urdu is more refined, maybe you should just accept Urdu as the name for "both" your "languages".

in urdu the nouns and adjectives may be persian or arabic. this is not the case in Hindustani. Urdu is a special form of Hindustani.

correction: Hindustani does contain words of persian or arabic origin, but these are "simple" words, not "difficult" words. For instance, the words "toofaan" (storm), "ishq", "mohabbat" are persian words which are also used in hindustani. These words can be understood by the common man. But many "difficult" (esoteric or not commonly used in conversation) persian words in urdu poetry (like the urdu poetry of Ghalib) would not be understood by the common man.

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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:04 pm


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Re: Eminent Uttar Pradeshi poet who hated Hindi

Post by Rashmun on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:04 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When a person who speaks it as a third language is able to understand good bits of both "languages" and can't distinguish between the "two" it's time to call them the same language. Since many Northindians seem to think Urdu is more refined, maybe you should just accept Urdu as the name for "both" your "languages".

The following narrative of David Matthews is pertinent if only to demonstrate the interchangeability of the spoken Hindi and Urdu by the common man of India: “In a hotel in Madras, I called the waiter and ordered my tea in Urdu and asked him his name. The waiter looked very uncomfortable and declared that he disliked Hindi and that in Madras they spoke only Tamil. I told him at once: ‘But I am not speaking Hindi, I am actually talking to you in Urdu.’ He at once relaxed and said: ‘What a sweet language! Urdu is a beautiful language with such beautiful ghazals and poetry.”

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/the-language-of-many-tongues/article7612174.ece

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