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european standards

Post by pravalika nanda on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:52 pm

the germans:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38297302
aww, can't wait to visit


Last edited by pravalika nanda on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: european standards

Post by pravalika nanda on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:53 pm


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Re: european standards

Post by pravalika nanda on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:59 pm

and why not honeymoon in france?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38292968

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Re: european standards

Post by silvermani on Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:07 pm

Didn't some woman push a man to his death on railway platform in NYC some time ago? Nut-cases are everywhere and every time you leave home, there are no guarantees you will come back safely.
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Re: european standards

Post by pravalika nanda on Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:24 pm

silvermani wrote:Didn't some woman push a man to his death on railway platform in NYC some time ago? Nut-cases are everywhere and every time you leave home, there are no guarantees you will come back safely.
hope you don't mind but i wanted to collect some stories about the europeans okay? indian people bring up europe only to brag about all the places they've been and the wine they consumed. it's tiring.

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Re: european standards

Post by silvermani on Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:36 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
silvermani wrote:Didn't some woman push a man to his death on railway platform in NYC some time ago? Nut-cases are everywhere and every time you leave home, there are no guarantees you will come back safely.
hope you don't mind but i wanted to collect some stories about the europeans okay? indian people bring up europe only to brag about all the places they've been and the wine they consumed. it's tiring.
I have never seen the charm in Indians going to Europe. Americans would probably be interested because they trace their ancestry to Europe but what would an Indian get by visiting that place? I do love French wine - which I buy for less than $10 at Trader Joe's. The Famile Perrin Cotes du rhone at $7.99 and Le Pepin Pinot noir at about $5 a bottle are my current favorites. Also picked up the Kirkland Cotes du Rhone Villages red wine from Costco for $6.99.
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:48 pm

silvermani wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
silvermani wrote:Didn't some woman push a man to his death on railway platform in NYC some time ago? Nut-cases are everywhere and every time you leave home, there are no guarantees you will come back safely.
hope you don't mind but i wanted to collect some stories about the europeans okay? indian people bring up europe only to brag about all the places they've been and the wine they consumed. it's tiring.
I have never seen the charm in Indians going to Europe. Americans would probably be interested because they trace their ancestry to Europe but what would an Indian get by visiting that place? I do love French wine - which I buy for less than $10 at Trader Joe's. The Famile Perrin Cotes du rhone at $7.99 and Le Pepin Pinot noir at about $5 a bottle are my current favorites. Also picked up the Kirkland Cotes du Rhone Villages red wine from Costco for $6.99.

I can't say I have traveled a lot around Europe. I have done some. The charm is in the sights, the drink, and the food taken together. Hiking in the Swiss alps (there are doable ones even for people of modest abilities), walking along the Kapellbruke in Lucerne, listening to an awesome rendition of Tocata and Fugue in D minor at the Hofkirche in Lucerne, drinking beer in a Bavarian Biergarten amongst friends, having mulled wine in the biting cold at the Christkindlmarkt in Nuremberg, visiting Ludwig Boltzmann's grave in Vienna with the S=k*Log(W) equation engraved on his tomb (this was an especially reverential experience; also visiting Johann Strauss's grave nearby during the same visit), having a bitter in a pub in Coventry, taking in Shakespeare's birthplace, contemplating the many Indian names amongst soldiers who perished in WWII at the memorial near Buckingham palace, going running along the river in Maidenhead, visiting a distillery in Sctoland etc are experiences I've had over the years (mostly Germany, UK, and Switzerland) that I treasure and no way can be reproduced in the US.  I look forward to France, Greece, and Italy in the coming years.
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Re: european standards

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:45 pm

am not hoity toity about it with all that poet-ism, but i lub europe.

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:46 pm

It is incredibly narrow-minded to visit only the places connected with one's own genetic heritage. As a tourist, I have gotten just as much out of Africa and America as I have out of India. I thoroughly enjoyed Italy because I am a history buff and the is so much to see in Rome, and because Venice is really beautiful. I enjoy France because it is a beautiful country with good food, wine, and a fascinating history that is an important part of human heritage even if it has little to do with my Indian heritage.
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Re: european standards

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:00 pm

Idéfix wrote:It is incredibly narrow-minded to visit only the places connected with one's own genetic heritage. As a tourist, I have gotten just as much out of Africa and America as I have out of India. I thoroughly enjoyed Italy because I am a history buff and the is so much to see in Rome, and because Venice is really beautiful. I enjoy France because it is a beautiful country with good food, wine, and a fascinating history that is an important part of human heritage even if it has little to do with my Indian heritage.
Hmm.....
In other words, you appreciate pagan cultures.....
How about visiting places influenced by Western cultures: (a) Marxism - Russia, Cambodia, Cuba, Venezuela..... and (b) Semitic faiths - Philippines, S Arabia, Nigeria, the bible-belt in the US.........
Indian (Hindu, Buddhist and Jain) culture, by its nature, doesn't show off its inner growth through external extravagance.......

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Re: european standards

Post by Kris on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:11 pm

Idéfix wrote:It is incredibly narrow-minded to visit only the places connected with one's own genetic heritage. As a tourist, I have gotten just as much out of Africa and America as I have out of India. I thoroughly enjoyed Italy because I am a history buff and the is so much to see in Rome, and because Venice is really beautiful. I enjoy France because it is a beautiful country with good food, wine, and a fascinating history that is an important part of human heritage even if it has little to do with my Indian heritage.
+1..and Spain too.. 

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:13 pm

I have been to Cambodia and Nigeria. The former as a tourist and loved it, the latter on work and it was just OK. Italy was as Catholic as it gets for some of the worst centuries in the history of Christianity. And the French were persecuting Huguenots when the Jews and Arabs were living together in much of the Muslim world. 

One of my favorite places in Paris is the Pantheon, a modern temple to great French people. The ancient Roman Pantheon is great too, but the Paris one is better, it houses the remains of Voltaire and Rousseau, Hugo and Dumas, Lagrange and Curie.
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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:15 pm

Yes I need to go back to Spain. I only went to Andalusia. Seville, Cordoba, Cadiz are all rich with history and driving through the countryside is a real pleasure.
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Re: european standards

Post by Kris on Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:26 pm

Idéfix wrote:Yes I need to go back to Spain. I only went to Andalusia. Seville, Cordoba, Cadiz are all rich with history and driving through the countryside is a real pleasure.
>>> I thought I would like Southern Spain and Andalusia is undoubtedly charming, but Barcelona was like being in Paris with happy people + Gaudi is a huge bonus. I find his works fascinating, despite having no background or knowledge of architecture.

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:29 pm

Yes, Barcelona is on the list... Hope you are doing well, haven't seen you here in a while!
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Re: european standards

Post by Kris on Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:59 am

Idéfix wrote:Yes, Barcelona is on the list... Hope you are doing well, haven't seen you here in a while!
>>>Popping in now and then. Trying to cut back on online time for the time being due to limited bandwidth

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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:02 pm

One of the places I mentioned. Looks like this is a popular nerd pilgrimage in Vienna :-). Lots of people posting pics standing next to the boss man's tomb.



This is a lot closer to home -- another hero's grave. Should visit some time.
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Re: european standards

Post by silvermani on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:38 pm

All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:40 pm

silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.

Your dear leader the orange one is much worse.
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Re: european standards

Post by silvermani on Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.

Your dear leader the orange one is much worse.

Who is your leader now? The (soon to be) retired Obama or the defeated Hillary?
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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:57 pm

silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.
Not really my experience. Certainly not more than what I have seen in the US. When I am a tourist, people can usually see that I am a tourist, not a resident. And tourists spend money and are treated nicely. Trying to speak the local language a little goes a long, long way. One of the things I like about France is that if you speak just a little French people will go out of their way to be nice to you.
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Re: european standards

Post by pravalika nanda on Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:58 pm

Idéfix wrote:
silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.
Not really my experience. Certainly not more than what I have seen in the US. When I am a tourist, people can usually see that I am a tourist, not a resident. And tourists spend money and are treated nicely. Trying to speak the local language a little goes a long, long way. One of the things I like about France is that if you speak just a little French people will go out of their way to be nice to you.
europeans are generally more knowledgeable than americans but when they think of india they only think of poverty, people shitting on the streets and polytheism. when they want to be generous they bring up bollywood, and colorful sarees.

they know nothing of indina languages, traditions, holidays, history or politics. i was talking to my boss the other day and all he had to say about india is that it's a third-world country. he's well-educated and makes 400k per year.

indians who're middle-class or higher speak fluent english, watch english movies/sports and listen to popular music. to show off they learn silly langugaes like french which are useful only in france. the french should treat you nicely because you're visiting; you don't have to speak in french and flatter them in order to get a good cup of coffee. they're full of themselves. iin fact, parisians are quite the rip-off artisst selling trinkets at extraordinary prices and a day in paris will empty your pcokets.

also we learn enough about european mathematicians and scientists, we read bulfinch's mythology or catullus's poetry growing up. we have no choice because in 95% of schools and colleges, telugu or tamil or malayalam are not options. these are all things we have to pursue in our spare time. in addition to which we are not allowed any time to celebrate our festivals. look how giddy everyone gets about xmas here. i'm 38 yrs old and i've only celebarted deepavali twice in my life, once as a three year old and again as a 9 yr old.

europeans have no respect for anyone. and i include their progeny the americans to that. so no, i don't have to go on about the charm and greatness of europeans. there isn't anything special about them or their achievements other than that we've been told so.

i don't see any reason to go out my way to paris or whatever. i don't think seeing some dead physics/math guy's grave is gonna make my brain better. yeah, it makes for a nice story afterward but it's  not high up on my list of experiences i'm looking forward to. i'll respect them when they respect me.

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:19 pm

also we learn enough about european mathematicians and scientists, we read bulfinch's mythology or catullus's poetry growing up. we have no choice because in 95% of schools and colleges, telugu or tamil or malayalam are not options. these are all things we have to pursue in our spare time. in addition to which we are not allowed any time to celebrate our festivals. look how giddy everyone gets about xmas here. i'm 38 yrs old and i've only celebarted deepavali twice in my life, once as a three year old and again as a 9 yr old.
This is pretty much the opposite of my experience. I went to a school where all subjects were taught in Telugu, and the festivals I celebrated as a kid were mostly Telugu festivals.

What experiences you decide to seek out during your vacations is your personal choice. There are good reasons for people to choose to do the things you don't care for.
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:26 pm

It is my observation that people who drink deeply from the arts, literature, and other riches offered by their own birth culture find it easier to appreciate the corresponding things in others' culture. If some French or German person treats brown people poorly, that is no reason to abandon one's interest in the works of dead German or French physics or math guys, visiting their architectural splendors, or giving their excellent libations a pass. One is only needlessly depriving oneself without making a dent in modifying the other guy's behavior (if that is a goal).
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Re: european standards

Post by smArtha on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:34 pm

Idéfix wrote:
This is pretty much the opposite of my experience. I went to a school where all subjects were taught in Telugu, and the festivals I celebrated as a kid were mostly Telugu festivals.

Saaru - what are Telugu festivalsu?

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:48 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
This is pretty much the opposite of my experience. I went to a school where all subjects were taught in Telugu, and the festivals I celebrated as a kid were mostly Telugu festivals.

Saaru - what are Telugu festivalsu?
sankrAnti, ugAdi, vinAyaka chaviti, dasarA, dIpAvaLi. Also used to celebrate Holi, although that's not really a Telugu festival.
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Re: european standards

Post by smArtha on Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:59 pm

Idéfix wrote:


Saaru - what are Telugu festivalsu?
sankrAnti, ugAdi, vinAyaka chaviti, dasarA, dIpAvaLi. Also used to celebrate Holi, although that's not really a Telugu festival.

Reminded me of a Tamil acquaintance of mine who earnestly claimed that Murugan/Skanda is a Tamil God :-D

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Re: european standards

Post by Hellsangel on Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:50 pm

silvermani wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.

Your dear leader the orange one is much worse.

Who is your leader now? The (soon to be) retired Obama or the defeated Hillary?
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
silvermani wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.

Your dear leader the orange one is much worse.

Who is your leader now? The (soon to be) retired Obama or the defeated Hillary?



It's safe to stop now. I promise.
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:57 pm

The dems are dead, buried, sunk. They're six feet under and pushing up the daisies. We totally agree, you won fair and square. In fact we even agree we don't even know how badly off track we are. You're in charge. Show us what you can do.
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Re: european standards

Post by Hellsangel on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The dems are dead, buried, sunk. They're six feet under and pushing up the daisies. We totally agree, you won fair and square. In fact we even agree we don't even know how badly off track we are. You're in charge. Show us what you can do.
Aww! Don't be like that, Il Professore.
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:06 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The dems are dead, buried, sunk. They're six feet under and pushing up the daisies. We totally agree, you won fair and square. In fact we even agree we don't even know how badly off track we are. You're in charge. Show us what you can do.
Aww! Don't be like that, Il Professore.

No really! It's liberating to realize that I have nothing emotionally invested in the people and ideas in charge. If they succeed economically it's good for all of us and our bank balances regardless of politics. Unlikely I know. On the other hand, if they fail, it provides a fantastic platform to continuously throw barbs from a safe distance. Win win.
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Re: european standards

Post by Hellsangel on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The dems are dead, buried, sunk. They're six feet under and pushing up the daisies. We totally agree, you won fair and square. In fact we even agree we don't even know how badly off track we are. You're in charge. Show us what you can do.
Aww! Don't be like that, Il Professore.

No really! It's liberating to realize that I have nothing emotionally invested in the people and ideas in charge. If they succeed economically it's good for all of us and our bank balances regardless of politics. Unlikely I know. On the other hand, if they fail, it provides a fantastic platform to continuously throw barbs from a safe distance. Win win.
Good! No more Chicken Little routine.
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Re: european standards

Post by silvermani on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:52 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
silvermani wrote:All you Europhiles can stop with the Eurolove circle jerk. Given that Europe treats people of brown skin like shit, I said I don't see the charm in going there.
Not really my experience. Certainly not more than what I have seen in the US. When I am a tourist, people can usually see that I am a tourist, not a resident. And tourists spend money and are treated nicely. Trying to speak the local language a little goes a long, long way. One of the things I like about France is that if you speak just a little French people will go out of their way to be nice to you.
europeans are generally more knowledgeable than americans but when they think of india they only think of poverty, people shitting on the streets and polytheism. when they want to be generous they bring up bollywood, and colorful sarees.

they know nothing of indina languages, traditions, holidays, history or politics. i was talking to my boss the other day and all he had to say about india is that it's a third-world country. he's well-educated and makes 400k per year.

indians who're middle-class or higher speak fluent english, watch english movies/sports and listen to popular music. to show off they learn silly langugaes like french which are useful only in france. the french should treat you nicely because you're visiting; you don't have to speak in french and flatter them in order to get a good cup of coffee. they're full of themselves. iin fact, parisians are quite the rip-off artisst selling trinkets at extraordinary prices and a day in paris will empty your pcokets.

also we learn enough about european mathematicians and scientists, we read bulfinch's mythology or catullus's poetry growing up. we have no choice because in 95% of schools and colleges, telugu or tamil or malayalam are not options. these are all things we have to pursue in our spare time. in addition to which we are not allowed any time to celebrate our festivals. look how giddy everyone gets about xmas here. i'm 38 yrs old and i've only celebarted deepavali twice in my life, once as a three year old and again as a 9 yr old.

europeans have no respect for anyone. and i include their progeny the americans to that. so no, i don't have to go on about the charm and greatness of europeans. there isn't anything special about them or their achievements other than that we've been told so.

i don't see any reason to go out my way to paris or whatever. i don't think seeing some dead physics/math guy's grave is gonna make my brain better. yeah, it makes for a nice story afterward but it's  not high up on my list of experiences i'm looking forward to. i'll respect them when they respect me.

Best post of the thread, good enough to shut up the condescending circle jerker euro nut huggers.
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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:58 pm

silvermani wrote:Best post of the thread, good enough to shut up the condescending circle jerker euro nut huggers.
There's a lot of pent-up emotion there. It's OK, relax; you don't have to go to Europe if you don't want to.

When you don't like a civil discussion other people are having: you may ignore it, or you may participate in a civil manner and learn to articulate your viewpoint persuasively. If you are unable to ignore it but don't have the ability to articulate your issues in a civil manner, it results in incoherent name-calling which isn't good to look at.
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Re: european standards

Post by FluteHolder on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:24 pm

Now question to those who travelled/visited major countries/continents.

Which country/continent has its worst past/history? In terms of bloody wars, genocide and if your rank them what order you would do? Esp if the genocide was done by the invaders.

Like 1) Europe, 2) Americas, 3) South America, 4) India (if it make that list).

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:58 pm

FluteHolder wrote:Now question to those who travelled/visited major countries/continents.

Which country/continent has its worst past/history? In terms of bloody wars, genocide and if your rank them what order you would do? Esp if the genocide was done by the invaders.

Like 1) Europe, 2) Americas, 3) South America, 4) India (if it make that list).
A Telugu poet with communist sympathies once wrote: What is there to be proud of in the history of any nation? The entire history of humanity is littered with oppression of fellow human beings. He was right.

Having said that, if you look at all of history, the Americas have probably the worst of all, with the genocide of the Native Americans, and African slavery. I am not speaking just about the US but the New World in general.

The effects of those are not as in-your-face in the US or Mexico anymore because those things occurred over centuries. But if you go to Cambodia you can see the effects of the Khmer Rouge genocide -- few old people to be seen.
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Re: european standards

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:00 pm

Idéfix wrote:I have been to Cambodia and Nigeria. The former as a tourist and loved it, the latter on work and it was just OK. Italy was as Catholic as it gets for some of the worst centuries in the history of Christianity. And the French were persecuting Huguenots when the Jews and Arabs were living together in much of the Muslim world. 

One of my favorite places in Paris is the Pantheon, a modern temple to great French people. The ancient Roman Pantheon is great too, but the Paris one is better, it houses the remains of Voltaire and Rousseau, Hugo and Dumas, Lagrange and Curie.
I also visited the places in Paris. I liked the countryside as well. Stayed at a chateau (Chateau de Fillerval) for a meeting and went cycling with a French colleague (actually, an Egyptian Jew who settled in France).

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Re: european standards

Post by FluteHolder on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:10 pm

Idéfix wrote:

Having said that, if you look at all of history, the Americas have probably the worst of all, with the genocide of the Native Americans, and African slavery. I am not speaking just about the US but the New World in general.

The effects of those are not as in-your-face in the US or Mexico anymore because those things occurred over centuries. But if you go to Cambodia you can see the effects of the Khmer Rouge genocide -- few old people to be seen.
Though I agree on the general world history, would you say Asia esp India was less violent and more spiritual (not necessarily religious angle) (atleast before the Taimur/Mongol invasions started) while rest of world was not.

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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:13 pm

The French countryside is beautiful. My favorite is Provence, particularly the Luberon region and the coast. Small picturesque villages, beautiful hills, excellent food and wine, country roads, great hikes. The internet access sucked, but made the vacation better.
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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:26 pm

FluteHolder wrote:
Idéfix wrote:

Having said that, if you look at all of history, the Americas have probably the worst of all, with the genocide of the Native Americans, and African slavery. I am not speaking just about the US but the New World in general.

The effects of those are not as in-your-face in the US or Mexico anymore because those things occurred over centuries. But if you go to Cambodia you can see the effects of the Khmer Rouge genocide -- few old people to be seen.
Though I agree on the general world history, would you say Asia esp India was less violent and more spiritual (not necessarily religious angle) (atleast before the Taimur/Mongol invasions started) while rest of world was not.
China had long periods of relative peace when any of its major dynasties (e.g. Tang, Song, Ming and Qing) was strong. In between, it was civil war more or less. India before the Muslim invasions was similar, with some relative periods of peace under the Mauryas (<100 years), the Kushans (~200 years) and the Guptas (~200 years), with various wars in between. And none of those empires really covered all of Tamilakam; there the relative periods of peace were interspersed with lots of wars. So if you think of the Gangetic plain in the period between 300 BCE and 700 CE, there was about 500 years of relative peace under one central government in that 1,000 year span.

Edit: Why 300 BCE and 700 CE? 300 BCE because that was the first time a northern empire crossed the Vindhyas to become something more. 700 CE because 12 years later Sindh was conquered by the Arabs.
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Re: european standards

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:33 pm

Idéfix wrote:The French countryside is beautiful. My favorite is Provence, particularly the Luberon region and the coast. Small picturesque villages, beautiful hills, excellent food and wine, country roads, great hikes. The internet access sucked, but made the vacation better.

Most of my European wanderings have been work related travel -- visiting collaborators or conference attendance etc. France and Italy remain aspirational destinations waiting for the right time. Haven't yet taken a proper family vacation in Europe except for a one day detour during an India trip to Heidelberg. Have to do a family vacation one of these days. Most family vacations have turned out to be US National parks or India visits.
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Re: european standards

Post by Idéfix on Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Airbnb has made it really easy to do family vacations in remote places where there are no hotels. If the hosts are generous, they may even show you around the place.

For anyone thinking of a vacation in a rural setting in France or Spain, check out these two villages: Roussillion, Arcos de la Frontera.



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