In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

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In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:45 pm

Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

We arrive in Uzbek Ferghana Valley after a fortnight-long, four-thousand kilometre drive through the never-ending steppes of Kazakhstan and the dazzling mountain pastures of the Kyrgyz Republic. En route, we cross the Kyrgyz Ferghana towns of Jalalabad and Osh. Osh has more than 150 Indian medical students all of whom come here attracted as much by the quality of education as by the relatively lower costs. We meet several of them and walk through the famous bazaar of Osh all filled with shoddy Chinese merchandise.

A 14-hour drive from Osh through the stunning Tien Shan and Pamir ranges brings us to Andijon, the hometown of Babur. Andijon of course, breathes Babur, thinks Babur and worships him. After all he was born here to an illustrious military clan and his father was the Governor-General of the province. He traces his lineage to Amir Timur and the non-pareil Chenghis Khan of the Golden Horde. Babur’s modest house is preserved for posterity as a museum, but that it is an afterthought is clear since none of the things he might have used, are on display. Just outside Babur’s house is a hardware market. The entrance to the house is partially hidden by tin and metal wash basins.

We saunter through the chaotic Central Asian Bazaar of Andijon. Donkey carts clog the roads even as swanky Volvo buses hoot impatiently, scattering helter-skelter, jay-walking locals. This is melon season in Ferghana and the markets are heaped high with ripe melons. They come in all colours — yellow, green, orange and brown and designs — ridged, smooth, striped. The fruit vendor tempts us with a wedge and we need no further persuasion. No wonder Babur was so nostalgic for the sweet melons of his homeland to which he never went back once he established his empire in Delhi.

Ferghana’s fecundity is legendary, but we discover its hospitality. Every house and shop is bursting with fruits – apples, walnuts, almonds, plums, peaches and persimmons. Chaikhonas – traditional tea houses have trellises laden with ripe, juicy grapes to which we help ourselves lavishly, even as the locals look on indulgently. At the Babur Foundation, there is an orchard bursting with quince, a fruit that resembles peach. They are not yet ripe, but I cannot resist the temptation to taste some.

We stay in Ferghana town and explore the surrounding areas – Marjilon, Namangan, Andijon, Rishton etc. Marjilon is famous for its silks. Ferghana silk is exquisitely fine, but it is too narrow for us to make anything out of it. So we buy scarves and stoles in pastel shades and signature patterns at tourist prices. At Rishton, we visit Rustom Usmanov the famous potter who specializes in exquisite blue and green glazed pottery. The workshop and the store are a feast for the eyes, but the stuff is expensive....

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Propagandhi711 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:14 pm

douchemun's gay love for bearded mullahs continues unabated.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by silvermani on Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:31 pm

For some reason I thought Babur was from Afghanistan. Myabe because he was buried in Kabul. But he died in Delhi, so the Mughals must have had advanced storage techniques to preserve his body for the long journey.
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:43 pm

silvermani wrote:For some reason I thought Babur was from Afghanistan. Myabe because he was buried in Kabul. But he died in Delhi, so the Mughals must have had advanced storage techniques to preserve his body for the long journey.
Babur was an Uzbek. Probably was like Dostum in looks and personality. I read somewhere that the Afghans go and pee on his grave.......

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:53 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
silvermani wrote:For some reason I thought Babur was from Afghanistan. Myabe because he was buried in Kabul. But he died in Delhi, so the Mughals must have had advanced storage techniques to preserve his body for the long journey.
Babur was an Uzbek. Probably was like Dostum in looks and personality. I read somewhere that the Afghans go and pee on his grave.......

Babur was not an Uzbek. Babur's mother was a Mongol; Babur's father was a Turk.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:00 pm

Uzbekistan appears to have found its national hero almost 500 years after his death. While nobody is complaining — some have said that they have always celebrated the Timurid ruler’s birthday — lovers aren’t very amused with this new decree. Last year, a big V-Day concert was called off by the government at the eleventh hour in its bid to promote the study and appreciation of Babur. The million-dollar question is: why now?
The answer might lie in neighbouring Afghanistan, where, too, Babur is emerging as a national icon....

Interestingly, many Kabulis come to Babur’s tomb in summer months for ziyarat, as if he were some saint. They believe that the emperor wielded “divine” power in his lifetime and that he still does in the afterlife. There is also the intriguing fact that a buffalo is sacrificed in his honour and the meat distributed among the keepers of the garden. There is no fixed date for this ritual and nobody knows for sure when it started, but critics have argued for a ban on this “un-Islamic” practice.Kabulis, unsettled by perpetual invasions, foreign occupations and civil wars, have found in Babur a hero: someone who spent 20 years of his life in their city and always intended to return to it.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/parthian-shot/babur-as-valentine/

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:05 pm

Is it true that earlier in his life Babur was a catamite lover but he got over this fetish later in life?
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:08 pm

He was a descendant of Genghis Khan, who captured the largest territory in history, and of Tamerlane, the second mightiest conqueror. He was the first ruler to write an autobiography - and in his own handwriting.
He composed poetry that resonates today, and was as adept at describing monuments, flora and fauna, wine parties and battle strategy as he was at expressing his inner feelings.
He founded an empire to rival the Ottoman Turks' and the Persian Safavids'; it lasted more than three centuries. Zahir Uddin Muhammad Babur, who was born in Andijan, Uzbekistan in 1483 and died in Agra, India in 1530, should be in the front row.
Those familiar with the history of the Indian sub-continent will know that Babur (meaning lion) was a restless man of vaulting ambition, a brilliant general who defeated Sultan Ibrahim Lodi at Panipat in 1526 and established the Mughal dynasty which ruled most of the sub-continent until the mid-19th century.
But he was also an outstanding man of letters, at home with prose and poetry in Turkish, his mother tongue, and Persian, the language of literature and administration.
Babur started a journal when he became the governor of Andijan, following his father Omar Shaikh Mirza's accidental death at the age of 10. He continued the practice until the last year of his life.
The Babur Nama is a rich compendium. It describes his domains and the way they were administered, the battles and the territories he won and lost, the outbreak of rebellions and their suppression, the rise and fall of his adversaries and allies, his marriages and children, his banishment to a hill tract and near-death, and the biographies of his parents and close relatives.

It also includes his judgments of the men of various ranks he dealt with as a fugitive, a ruler and a general - and as a poet and connoisseur. He was endowed with curiosity, an eye for detail, self-knowledge, logic, and a candour that is both disarming and moving.
Throughout his often tumultuous life, he meticulously preserved his voluminous text. Babur was conscious of the value of his chronicle as well as the importance of being objective. "I do not write this in order to make complaint; I have written the plain truth," he asserts. "I do not set these matters down in order to make known my own deserts; I have set down exactly what has happened."
There is much personal detail in the memoir, including a description of Babur getting his head shaved after four months and the loss of a loose half-tooth while eating. His descriptions of personal experiences are remarkable as much for their lack of self-aggrandisement as for their vividness and precision.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/non_fictionreviews/3663972/Love-poems-memoirs-and-massacres.html

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:14 pm

while babur's poetry deserves to be appreciated, something like this is clearly silly:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1163428

reminds me of how the Chaddis are also opposed to V-day. Babur would have been horrified to see his name and legacy being misused in this manner.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:09 pm

At a time when questions are being raised by Hindu right wing groups on the contribution of Mughal rulers to India, experts from Uzbekistan, Babur’s birthplace, are here to study about him and the era to trace the historical links between the two countries. A team of researchers from the Central Asian country visited the National Museum which has a vast repository of information on Mughal rulers, including rare manuscripts about Babur, who founded the Mughal empire that reigned for over three centuries. The experts are working on the project ‘Cultural Legacy of Uzbekistan in the Art Collections of the World’ where teams are gathering Uzbeki historical material from across the world.

“The team had come in April and their aim is to document material related to the Mughal era, primarily. “Babar was born in Andijan, (a city of Farghana province of Uzbekistan) and we have a lot of material on him and the Mughal dynasty in India. Another team will visit the museum too and we are happy to help them out,” said Dr BR Mani, Director General, National Museum which is under the ministry of culture. Babur, in fact, never visited Uzbekistan after he came to India and spent his life in his adopted country. At the museum, the Uzbek experts are particularly interested in manuscripts of the Holy Quran, scribed in Uzbekistan, which were presented to the Mughal emperors, as is evident from the royal seals on the cover page.

Also of interest are 15 illustrated folios of the Baburnama, which is Babur’s biography, in Turkish. “India is one of the friendliest countries for us. It was a real pleasure to visit. It is especially gratifying to realise that the culture of such a great country is connected with ours. “So far, work with India has just begun. We are planning to publish 1-2 albums in India depending on the results of the work,” said Professor Andrey Zybkin, the Uzbeki project coordinator, in an email reply to PTI. Uzbekistan takes pride in Babur’s contribution and has declared February 14 as Babur Day.



http://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/uzbek-experts-in-india-to-study-about-mughal-emperor-babars-contribution/700845/

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:35 am

From the chapter on Babur in the book 'The Great Moghuls' by Bamber Gascoigne, pgs 37-38 and 42:

He[Babur] was occupied at this time in linking in narrative form the jottings which he had made throughout his life as a rough diary, but he also found time for a magnificent and very detailed forty page account of his new acquisition--Hindustan. In it he explains the social structure and the caste system, the geographical outlines and the recent history; he marvels at such details as the Indian method of counting and time-keeping, the inadequacy of the lighting arrangements, the profusion of Indian craftsmen, or the want of good manners, decent trousers and cool streams; but his main emphasis is on the flora and fauna of the country, which he notes with the care of a born naturalist and describes with the eye of a painter--an interest and a talent which would be very precisely inherited by his great grandson, Jahangir.

He separates and describes, for example, five types of parrots; he explains how plantain produces banana; and with astonishing scientific observation he announces that the rhinoceros 'resembles the horse more than any other animal' (according to modern zoologists, the order Perisodactyla has only two surviving sub-orders; one includes the rhinoceros, the other the horse). In other parts of the book too he goes into raptures over such images as the changing colors of a flock of geese on the horizon, or of some beautiful leaves on an apple tree. The sensitivity with which he observed his own reactions in love extends also to his observations of nature..........

The emperor died on December 26,1530. His progression with all its ups and downs from tiny Ferghana to Hindustan would in itself ensure him a minor place in the league of his great ancestors, Timur and Jenghiz Khan; but the sensitivity and integrity with which he recorded this personal odyssey, from buccaneer with royal blood in his veins revelling in each adventure to emperor eyeing in fascinated amazement every detail of his prize, gives him an added distinction which very few men of action achieve.

And his book itself became a powerful and most beneficial source of inspiration to his descendants. Avid readers of family history, they found here the most personal expression of their own tradition. In certain respects they consciously imitated Babur; Jahangir wrote a very similar book about his own life, Shah Jahan deliberately copied Babur's gesture of pouring away his wine before a decisive campaign.

Even more important, for several generations the Great Moghuls instinctively followed Babur's concept of a ruler, which by the standards of the time was decidedly liberal. Again and again in his memoirs he demonstrates the belief that defeated enemies must be conciliated rather than antagonized if they are to be ruled effectively afterwards, and that one's own followers must be prevented by rigid discipline from victimizing the local population. It was a belief which would play an important part in the great days of the Moghul empire.



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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:12 am

what is the breakdown of population / people religiously in that country / place currently?
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:31 am

Extract below taken from the first chapter of Stanley Lane-Pool's biography of Babur:

Babur is the link between Central Asia and India, between predatory hordes and imperial government, between Tamerlane and Akbar. The blood of the two great Scourges of Asia, Chingiz and Timur, mixed in his veins, and to the daring and restlessness of the nomad Tatar he joined the culture and urbanity of the Persian. He brought the energy of the Mongol, the courage and capacity of the Turk...his permanent place in history rests upon his Indian conquests; but his place in biography and in literature is determined rather by his daring adventures and persevering efforts of his earlier days, and by the delightful Memoirs in which he related them.

Soldier of fortune as he was, Babur was not the less a man of fine literary taste and fastidious critical perception. In Persian, the language of culture, the Latin of Central Asia, he was an accomplished poet, and in his native Turki he was master of a pure and unaffected style alike in prose and verse. The Turkish princes of his time prided themselves upon their literary polish, and to turn an elegant ghazal, or even to write a beautiful manuscript, was their peculiar ambition, no less worthy or stimulating than to be master of sword or mace.

In some of the boldly sketched portraits of his contemporaries which enliven the Memoirs, Babur often passes abruptly from warlike or administrative qualities to literary gifts; he will tell how many battles a king fought, and then, as if to clinch the tale of his merits, he will add that he was a competent judge of poetry and was fond of reading the Shah Nama...Of another dignitary he notes regretfully that 'he never read, and though a townsman he was illiterate and unrefined'; on the other hand 'a brave man' is commended the more because he 'wrote the nastalik hand,' though, truly, 'after a fashion'.

Wit and learning, the art of turning a quatrian on the spot, quoting the Persian classics, writing a good hand, or singing a good song, were highly appreciated in Babur's world, as much perhaps as valour...Babur will himself break off in the middle of a tragic story to quote a verse, and he found leisure in the thick of his difficulties and dangers to compose an ode on his misfortunes...

Hence his Memoirs are no rough soldier's chronicle of marches and countermarches...they contain the personal impressions and acute reflections of a cultivated man of the world, well read in Eastern literature, a close and curious observer, quick in perception, a discerning judge of persons, and a devoted lover of nature; one, moreover, who was well able to express his thoughts and observations in clear and vigorous language.

'His autobigraphy,' says a sound authority [H. Beveridge], is one of those priceless records which are for all time, and is fit to rank with the confessions of St. Augustine and Rousseau, and the memoirs of Gibbon and Newton. In Asia it stands almost alone.'....
the shrewd comments and lively impressions which break in upon the narrative give Babur's reminiscences a unique and penetrating flavour. The man's own character is so fresh and buoyant, so free from convention and cant, so rich in hope, courage, resolve, and at the same time so warm and friendly, so very human, that it conquers one's admiring sympathy.


The utter frankness of self-revelation, the unconscious portraiture of all his virtues and follies, his obvious truthfulness and fine sense of honour, give the Memoirs an authority which is equal to their charm. If ever there were a case when the testimony of a single historical document, unsupported by other evidence, should be accepted as sufficient proof, it is the case with Babur's memoirs. No reader of this prince of autobiographers can doubt his honesty or his competence as witness and chronicler.'


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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:50 am

Rashmun wrote:Uzbekistan appears to have found its national hero almost 500 years after his death. While nobody is complaining — some have said that they have always celebrated the Timurid ruler’s birthday — lovers aren’t very amused with this new decree. Last year, a big V-Day concert was called off by the government at the eleventh hour in its bid to promote the study and appreciation of Babur. The million-dollar question is: why now?
The answer might lie in neighbouring Afghanistan, where, too, Babur is emerging as a national icon....
<snip>

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/parthian-shot/babur-as-valentine/

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it is amusing to observe the lionization of Babur in Uzbekistan, considering Babur did not really like the Uzbeks on account of the fact that a powerful Uzbek leader had pushed him out of his homeland. If this would not have happened Babur would never have come to India.

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After a siege of seven months Babar succeeded in having himself crowned the ruler of Samarkand. He was to rule the city for no more than a hundred days but in many ways this was the defining moment of Babar's life. He was to besiege, conquer and lose Samarkand many times over before he was finally and decisively driven southward. But up to the end of his life, even when he had conquered a realm far vaster, richer and more promising than those that had been taken from him, he still pined for his lost city: for Babar Samarkand was the epitome of civilisation, the centre of the world's urbanity and the fountainhead of all culture. He won a sizeable chunk of India, the land whose riches had triggered Europe's Age of Exploration. But all he really wanted was Samarkand....

The instrument of Babar's misery in his early kingdom-seeking years was a chief called Shaybani ('Wormwood') Khan, an Uzbek and a hereditary enemy. The wheel that Jenghis Khan had put in motion had now come full circle: just as the his armies had displaced other Turco-Mongol groups, pushing them further and further to the south and the west, so now Babar and his cousins found themselves facing a peoples who had decided to create their own moment of destiny. With the methodical precision of a cherry-picker, Shaybani Khan picked Babar and his fellow Timurids off, one by one, driving them steadily before him. "For nearly 140 years the capital Samarkand had been in our family," writes Babar. "Then came the Uzbeks, the foreign foe from God knows where, and took over."


https://www.amitavghosh.com/essays/love_war.html

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even though Shaybani Khan succeeded in driving away Babur, he died an ignonimous death: he was killed on the battlefield after he picked up a fight with the Persian king. This explains why Shaybani is not lionized in Uzbekistan today.


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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Is it true that earlier in his life Babur was a catamite lover but he got over this fetish later in life?
Yes, he was. Apparently, many in his crowd in central Asia did that.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:19 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Is it true that earlier in his life Babur was a catamite lover but he got over this fetish later in life?
Yes, he was. Apparently, many in his crowd in central Asia did that.

i like the confident way in which you talk about things you have no knowledge about.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:42 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Is it true that earlier in his life Babur was a catamite lover but he got over this fetish later in life?
Yes, he was. Apparently, many in his crowd in central Asia did that.
Many in the pieceful community indulge in such activities. In Malaysia, when political opponents wanted to destroy Anwar, they charged him with doing this. In pieceful hypocritical countries, young boys, donkeys, camels, etc., are not safe.......

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:39 am

On his 534th birth anniversary, we bring to you 10 facts about the Mughal emperor Babur:

8. Babur claimed to be very strong and physically fit. He also claimed to have swum across every major river he encountered, including twice across the Ganges River. "I swam across the river Ganges for amusement. I counted my strokes, and found that I swam over in thirty-three strokes. I then took breath, and swam back to the other. side. I had crossed by swimming every river I had met, except only the Ganges," he noted, according to Medieval India from the Mohammedan Conquest to the Reign of Akbar the Great, written by Stanley Lane-Poole .

9. Babur was well-known for his oratory and literary skills. Although a religious person, Babur indulged in drinking. He once said, quoting a contemporary poet, "I am drunk, officer. Punish me when I am sober."

10. Till date, he is considered a national hero in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. He wrote his autobiography, Baburnama, in Chaghatai Turkic. It was translated to Persian during the reign of his grandson Akbar.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/education/story/mughal-emperor-babur/1/556118.html

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:02 am

However, what Babur is most famous for today is not his campaigns and kingdoms, but his book, "The Baburnama." This is one of the classics of world literature. It is also a rare example of an autobiography produced in Islamic culture in pre-modern times. Why he wrote it remains a mystery. It has recently been suggested that it might have been meant as a sort of legitimizing document, drafted to present his case to rule over the lands once ruled by Timur.

An alternative theory has it that the book is an example of the mirrors-for-princes genre, intended to give guidance to a princely readership on how to conduct oneself as ruler. Or perhaps the book was intended as a meditation on the nature of destiny? None of these theories is remotely convincing, for they all neglect the freshness and the personal detail that abound in "The Baburnama."

Babur's account of the Turkish general who was especially good at leapfrog has no obvious bearing on the nature of destiny. His enthusiasm for melons and swimming does not really legitimize him as Timur's heir, while no previous example of an Islamic guide to princely conduct contains so much about vegetables, birds, landscapes, physiognomy, parties, songs or sex.

Babur, who could claim descent not only from Timur but also from Genghis Khan and was of mixed Turkish and Mongol descent, nevertheless lived in a region where the aristocratic elite were perfectly conversant with Persian. Persian was regarded as the language of civilization; poetry and a highly ornate artistic prose were normally written in it. Yet -- and here is another mystery -- Babur chose to write his memoir in Chagatai Turkish and in a style that is strikingly unaffected and modern in its feel.

Although "The Baburnama" has not survived in its entirety, in its pages we are able to trace the parabola of Babur's life: we start with exciting night attacks, alarms, treasons and perilous journeys through snowbound mountain passes made by a young man who was intensely ambitious, optimistic and careless about risking his life.

In 1500, when Babur was 17, he was married to a girl he had been betrothed to as a child. "Since it was my first marriage and I was bashful, I went to her only once every 10, 15 or 20 days. Later on I lost my fondness for her altogether. . . . Once every month or 40 days my mother the khanim drove me to her with all the severity of a quartermaster."

At about the same time Babur fell passionately in love with a beautiful boy who worked in the market. He wandered about bareheaded and barefoot, deranged with passion, and, although he was too shy ever to speak to this boy, the first rush of sexual desire coincided with the onset of the poetic impulse. Writing poetry, together with fighting, hunting and eating fruit, was to remain a lifelong enthusiasm....

On the other hand, Babur's visual sensibility had been trained by his profession of poetry and his connoisseurship of Persian miniature painting, and perhaps also heightened by occasional drug taking. He could write like this: "Nothing but purple flowers were blooming in some places, and only yellow in other areas. Sometimes the yellow and the purple blossomed together like gold fleck. We sat on a rise near the camp and just looked at the fields." Or like this: "Another kind of parrot is a beautiful bright red. There are other colors too. Since I do not remember exactly what they are, I haven't written them in detail. The red one is nicely shaped. It can be taught to talk, but unfortunately its voice is unpleasant and shrill as a piece of broken china dragged across a brass tray." In such passages, he anticipated in literary form the astonishing achievements of the naturalistic school of Mogul miniaturists who were to paint under the patronage of Babur's magnificent descendants in India.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/07/books/the-original-mogul.html

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:13 am

Babur is at his most self-revelatory in his description of his drinking life. Although he came from a hard-drinking line, Babur was 29 before he touched his first drink:

"In my childhood I had no desire for wine, for I was unaware of the enjoyment of it. Occasionally my father had offered me some, but I had made excuses. After my father’s death I was abstinent... Later, with the desires of young manhood and the promptings of the carnal soul, when I had an inclination for wine, nobody offered - no one even knew that I was interested."

Then, at a party in the city of Herat, in south-western Afghanistan, his nobles arranged a party for him and offered him wine. "It crossed my mind," writes Babur, "that since they were making such proposals, and here we had come to a fabulous city like Herat, where all the implements of pleasure and revelry were present, and all the devices of entertainment and enjoyment were close at hand, if I didn’t drink now, when would I? Deliberating thus with myself, I resolved to make the leap."

This was the beginning of a decades-long love affair with wine: Babur seems to have dedicated much of his time in Afghanistan to the pursuit of wine and ma’jun. So much for Afghan fundamentalism.

Babur provides us with meticulous descriptions of the parties of his Kabul years.

"At midday we rode off on an excursion, got on a boat, and drank spirits... We drank on the boat until late that night, left the boat roaring drunk, and got on our horses. I took a torch in my hand and, reeling to one side and then the other, let the horse gallop free-reined along the riverbank all the way to the camp. I must have been really drunk. The next morning they told me that I had come galloping into camp holding a torch. I didn’t remember a thing, except that when I got to my tent I vomited a lot."

http://www.littlemag.com/2000/amitav.htm

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by silvermani on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:06 am

Why did Indira Gandhi visit Babur's tomb during her Afghanistan visit?
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:25 pm

Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:36 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.
Babur lost his kingdom and was kind of forced to move on. Also, by his time, the pieceful in that area knew about how prosperous India was (and how the subcontinent was divided into small feuding kingdoms). So, he decided to venture into Kafir sthan. Most of what historians write on Babur was based on what the guy wrote about himself (in Baburnama). Obviously, he wouldn't call himself a barbarian!

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:09 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.
Babur lost his kingdom and was kind of forced to move on. Also, by his time, the pieceful in that area knew about how prosperous India was (and how the subcontinent was divided into small feuding kingdoms). So, he decided to venture into Kafir sthan. Most of what historians write on Babur was based on what the guy wrote about himself (in Baburnama). Obviously, he wouldn't call himself a barbarian!

Hardly Kafirsthan considering Babur fought his first major battle in India against a fellow muslim, Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi, for the throne of Delhi.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:11 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.

As Vakavaka has correctly said, Babur was pushed out of his homeland forcibly by a stronger military commander (at the time), the Uzbek Shaybani Khan.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:53 am

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Uzbekistan appears to have found its national hero almost 500 years after his death. While nobody is complaining — some have said that they have always celebrated the Timurid ruler’s birthday — lovers aren’t very amused with this new decree. Last year, a big V-Day concert was called off by the government at the eleventh hour in its bid to promote the study and appreciation of Babur. The million-dollar question is: why now?
The answer might lie in neighbouring Afghanistan, where, too, Babur is emerging as a national icon....
<snip>

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/parthian-shot/babur-as-valentine/

-----

it is amusing to observe the lionization of Babur in Uzbekistan, considering Babur did not really like the Uzbeks on account of the fact that a powerful Uzbek leader had pushed him out of his homeland. If this would not have happened Babur would never have come to India.

----
After a siege of seven months Babar succeeded in having himself crowned the ruler of Samarkand. He was to rule the city for no more than a hundred days but in many ways this was the defining moment of Babar's life. He was to besiege, conquer and lose Samarkand many times over before he was finally and decisively driven southward. But up to the end of his life, even when he had conquered a realm far vaster, richer and more promising than those that had been taken from him, he still pined for his lost city: for Babar Samarkand was the epitome of civilisation, the centre of the world's urbanity and the fountainhead of all culture. He won a sizeable chunk of India, the land whose riches had triggered Europe's Age of Exploration. But all he really wanted was Samarkand....

The instrument of Babar's misery in his early kingdom-seeking years was a chief called Shaybani ('Wormwood') Khan, an Uzbek and a hereditary enemy. The wheel that Jenghis Khan had put in motion had now come full circle: just as the his armies had displaced other Turco-Mongol groups, pushing them further and further to the south and the west, so now Babar and his cousins found themselves facing a peoples who had decided to create their own moment of destiny. With the methodical precision of a cherry-picker, Shaybani Khan picked Babar and his fellow Timurids off, one by one, driving them steadily before him. "For nearly 140 years the capital Samarkand had been in our family," writes Babar. "Then came the Uzbeks, the foreign foe from God knows where, and took over."


https://www.amitavghosh.com/essays/love_war.html

----
even though Shaybani Khan succeeded in driving away Babur, he died an ignonimous death: he was killed on the battlefield after he picked up a fight with the Persian king. This explains why Shaybani is not lionized in Uzbekistan today.


an interesting extract from the Baburnama:

Shaybani Khan responded to that woman’s promise and camped in the Bagh-i-Maydan. At noon Sultan-Ali Mirza, without informing any of his begs or warriors, and without consulting anyone, went out through the Charraha Gate with an insignificant few of his immediate retinue, headed for Shaybani Khan in the Bagh-i-Maydan. He was not well received by Shaybani Khan, who seated him in a less honorable place than himself after the interview. When Khwaja Yahya learned that the prince had gone out, he was upset. There was nothing he could do but go out too. Shaybani Khan received him without rising and spoke somewhat reproachfully. However, when Khwaja Yahya rose to leave, Shaybani Khan rose respectfully.

Jan-Ali, Khwaja Ali Bay’s son, was in Rabat-i-Khwaja. When he learned that his prince had gone out to Shaybani Khan, he went too. In her lust to get a husband, that wretched, feebleminded woman brought destruction on her son.  Shaybani Khan paid her not the slightest attention and regarded her as less than a concubine.

Sultan-Ali Mirza was at a loss and regretted having gone out. Some of his retinue understood what was up and thought they could get the prince out. Sultan-Ali Mirza refused to consent. Since his time had come, nothing could save him. He stayed with Temur Sultan, and four or five days later they executed him in the Qolba meadow. For the sake of this transitory life he departed with a bad name. By listening to the words of women, he removed himself from the circle of those of good repute. Of such a person no more can be written; of such horrible acts no more need be heard.

After Sultan-Ali Mirza was killed Jan-Ali too was dispatched after his prince. Since Shaybani Khan was in some fear of Khwaja Yahya, he dismissed him and his two sons, Khwaja Muhammad Zakariya and Khwaja Bagi, to Khurasan. A few Uzbeks followed behind them, and in the vicinity of Khwaja Kardzan they martyred the khwaja and the two young boys. Even worse, Shaybani Khan claimed that the affair of the khwaja was not his doing, that it had been done by Qambar Bey and Kopak Bey. As the saying goes, “The excuse is worse than the crime.”  If begs have free rein to engage in such acts without the knowledge of their khan or padishah, what is the use of khanate or kingship?


http://deremilitari.org/2013/03/baburnama-baburs-capture-and-loss-of-samarkand-1501/

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:55 am

Muhammad Shaybani, subsequently known as Shaybani Khan (1451-1510), was the founder of the short-lived Shaybanid Uzbek dynasty. In 1500, and again in 1505, he captured Samarkand from the Timurid ruler Babur. Shaybani Khan was killed in 1510 at the battle of Merv with the Persian Shah Ismail I.

https://www.wdl.org/en/item/3824/

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:13 am


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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:14 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.

As Vakavaka has correctly said, Babur was pushed out of his homeland forcibly by a stronger military commander (at the time), the Uzbek Shaybani Khan.
Considering Babar ended up in India along with  12000 loyal soldiers / men (a huge number of loyal followers for any person supposedly on the run), the story of him being pushed out of his homeland is probably not true. It seems Babar and 12000 companions were looking for a better / richer place to get hold and live to escape poverty / deprivation in their own homeland.
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:32 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Ferghana Valley has an umbilical connection with India. In 1526, a young prince from this fertile valley crossed the Pamirs and the Hindukush ranges and came through the Khyber Pass to Panipat, a dusty town in the alluvial plains of the Punjab (now in the state of Haryana). Arriving with just 12,000 loyal men and skimpy artillery, Zahiruddin Mohammad Babur, an extraordinary military genius, easily dispatched Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi’s substantial army and changed the course of Hindustan’s history forever. Babur was from Uzbek Ferghana, much to the disappointment of the Kyrgyz and the Tajiks who also share this 22,000 square kilometre valley in Central Asia. They derive comfort though, claiming some tenuous link with the Badshah. We are shown a hill-top hovel in Kyrgyz Ferghana and told Babur planned his campaigns while he stayed here!

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/travel/on-baburs-turf/article5951188.ece


This write-up makes no sense. If the valley above was so fertile, why did people from that area / place in large numbers (thousands, including the princes and the 'rich') cross over high mountains to go elsewhere (India) and even fought to take over dusty towns and settled there? In reality, people probably were trying to escape starvation and other problems and they did everything possible to reach India and get hold of it.

As Vakavaka has correctly said, Babur was pushed out of his homeland forcibly by a stronger military commander (at the time), the Uzbek Shaybani Khan.
Considering Babar ended up in India along with  12000 loyal soldiers / men (a huge number of loyal followers for any person supposedly on the run), the story of him being pushed out of his homeland is probably not true. It seems Babar and 12000 companions were looking for a better / richer place to get hold and live to escape poverty / deprivation in their own homeland.

Then why did he write in the Baburnama that India is a useless place?

Even though Babur had immense respect for the Rajputs and other sturdy Indian fighters, he had a low opinion of India and her people. "Hindustan is a country of few charms. Its people have no good looks; of social intercourse, paying and receiving visits there is none; of genius and capacity none; of manners none; in handicraft and work, there is no form or symmetry, method or quality. There are no good horses, no good dogs, no grapes, musk melons or first-rate fruits, no ice or cold water, nor bread or cooked food in bazaars; no hamams, no colleges, no torches or candlesticks," he wrote in the Tuzuk-i-Baburi.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/sunday-times/deep-focus/Samarkands-salaam-to-Babur/articleshow/18652644.cms

----
it is clear from reading the above extract from Babur's autobiography that he considered his native place to be superior to India in many respects.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:42 pm

there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:55 am

Rashmun wrote:there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:01 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:30 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was  personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:40 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was  personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:there was a time when Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was  personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:50 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
This whole thing in the name of Babar (e.g. Babarnama) was probably composed by a paid scribe to make Babar look good; a  common practice by royalty / ruling class long ago (even now to some extent)  to use paid scribes to compose books  and articles with fictional / imaginary tales and details to create favorable impressions about them for posterity. Don't believe everything found in these self-serving old books.

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was  personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:31 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

it is said that a generalist proposes, a specialist disposes. you and i are generalists when it comes to mughal history and while that permits us to offer observations and arguments we must defer to the specialists when it comes to something so serious as the authenticity of the Baburnama. Since no Mughal history specialist has questioned the authenticity of the Baburnama, we must concede that it was  personally composed by Babur (either written himself or dictated to some scribe--quite possibly a combination of these two methods of assembling a text).
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:54 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)
Just take a look at Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkemenistan, Afghanistan, PakiSatan, etc., and compare with India. There simply is no comparison. Babar came from a very backward and troubled region and his descendants enjoyed the benefits of living in a prosperous and tolerant land. Monomaniacs made a mess in those other countries after they became the majority - they are all backward eating dirt. Aurangazeb's sishya should advocate conversion of those countries back to Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and other pagan ways. If that happens, they will also taste some prosperity.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:35 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Forget the generalities and specialties. It's simply a matter of common sense -- several thousand men facing huge difficulties (deprivation and starvation etc.) in their own place getting together and, while even crossing high mountains etc., going to a distant place (India) that they probably had heard as the land of milk and honey and then fighting and conquering it to make their home, without returning to their original place of birth (from where they had started).

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)

isn't it time now to get off your high horse? for how long will you continue arguments without having adequate knowledge of the facts of the case?

FYI, Babur lived and ruled in the region in and around Kabul (in present day Afghanistan)--after being kicked out of his native Ferghana (in present day Uzbekistan)-- for about 20 years before his invasion of India in 1526 AD. He arrived in India at the age of 43 and died 4 years later at the age of 47.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:39 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)
Just take a look at Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkemenistan, Afghanistan, PakiSatan, etc., and compare with India. There simply is no comparison. Babar came from a very backward and troubled region and his descendants enjoyed the benefits of living in a prosperous and tolerant land. Monomaniacs made a mess in those other countries after they became the majority - they are all backward eating dirt. Aurangazeb's sishya should advocate conversion of those countries back to Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and other pagan ways. If that happens, they will also taste some prosperity.

Let's not forget that Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy at one time, that Babur's own ancestor Ulugh Beg was one of the world's foremost astronomer at one time, and that the astronomical achievements of Ulugh Beg and his team provided inspiration and impetus to Indian astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:51 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)
Just take a look at Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkemenistan, Afghanistan, PakiSatan, etc., and compare with India. There simply is no comparison. Babar came from a very backward and troubled region and his descendants enjoyed the benefits of living in a prosperous and tolerant land. Monomaniacs made a mess in those other countries after they became the majority - they are all backward eating dirt. Aurangazeb's sishya should advocate conversion of those countries back to Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and other pagan ways. If that happens, they will also taste some prosperity.
AlI these monomaniacs use STAN in the name of their countries. It is neither Arabic nor is of pieceful origin. It comes from Sanskrit-Parsi. It so happened that Zoroastrians (and likely Hindus) lived in most of those areas for millennia and Buddhism came later to some. The way monomaniacs eliminated the residents of some of these regions was described by themselves. Just ask an Afghan why Hindukush is called by that name - you will know how disgustingly barbaric monomaniacs were.......

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Rashmun on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:37 am

Jawaharlal Nehru on Babar: Extracts from Glimpses of World History1

I have told you of the court of the Great Khan of Karakorum;... They were a strange people, these Mongols; highly efficient in some ways, and almost childish in some other matters. Even their ferocity and cruelty, shocking as it was, has a childish element in it. It is the childishness in them, I think, that makes these warriors rather attractive. Some hundreds of years later a Mongol, or Mughal, as they were called in India, conquered this country. He was Baber (sic) and his mother was a descendant of Chengiz Khan. Having conquered India, he sighed for the cool breezes and the flowers and gardens and water-melons of Kabul and the north. He was a delightful person and the memoirs he wrote make him still a very human and attractive figure.


Glimpses, vol. I, p. 350
Letter dated June 27, 1932



I have told you something of Babar already. Descended from Chengiz and Timur, he had something of their greatness and military ability. But the Mongols had become more civilised since the days of Chengiz, and Babar was one of the most cultured and delightful persons one could meet. There was no sectarianism in him, no religious bigotry, and he did not destroy as his ancestors used to do. He was devoted to art and literature, and was himself a poet in Persian. Flowers and gardens he loved, and in the heat of India he thought often of his home in Central Asia. “The violets are lovely in Farghana,” he says in his memoirs, “it is a mass of tulips and roses.”

Babar was only a boy of eleven when his father died and he became ruler of Samarkand. It was not a soft job. There were enemies all around. So, at the age when little boys and girls are at school, he had to take to the field with his sword. He lost his throne and had many a great adventure in his stormy career. And yet he managed to cultivate literature and art. Ambition drove him on. Having conquered Kabul, he crossed the Indus to India...

Babar wrote his memoirs and this delightful book gives intimate glimpses of the man. He tells us of Hindustan and of its animals and flowers and trees and fruits – not forgetting the frogs! He sighs for the melons and grapes and flowers of his native country. And he expresses his great disappointment at the people. According to him they have not a single good point in their favour. Perhaps he did not get to know them in his four years of war and the more cultured classes kept away from the new conqueror...

“The Empire of Hindustan,” Babar tells us, “is extensive, populous and rich... “ Babar goes on with his description of India... He then gives lists of the animals, flowers, trees and fruits of Hindustan.

And then we come to the people. “The country of Hindustan has few pleasures to recommend it. The people are not handsome. They have no idea of the charms of friendly society, or of frankly mixing together or of familiar intercourse. They have no genius, no comprehension of mind, no politeness of manner, no kindness or fellow feeling, no ingenuity or mechanical invention in planning or executing their handicraft works, no skill or knowledge in design or architecture; they have no good horses, no good flesh, no grapes or musk-melons, no good fruits, no ice or cold water, no good food, or bread in their bazaars, no baths or colleges, no candles, no torches, not a candle stick.” What have they got, one is tempted to ask! Babar must have been thoroughly fed up when he wrote this....

Babar died in 1530 when he was 49 years of age... They carried Babar’s body to Kabul and there they buried it in a garden he loved. He had gone back at last to the flowers he longed for.


Glimpses, vol. I, pp.476-479.
Letter dated September 3, 1932




In India, we have seen Babar, the Mughal, come down from north-west and establish a new dynasty. This was in 1526, when Charles V was Emperor in Europe and Suleiman was ruling in Constantinople. We shall have a great deal to say of Babar and his brilliant descendants. It is interesting to note here, however, that Babar was himself a Renaissance type of prince, but a better one than the European type of the period. He was an adventurer, but gallant knight, with a passion for literature and art. In the Italy of that period there were also princes who were adventurers and lovers of literature and art and their petty courts had a superficial brilliance. The Medici family of Florence and the Borgias were famous then. But these Italian princes, and most others in Europe at the time, were true followers of Machiavelli, unscrupulous, intriguing, and despotic, using the poison cup and the dagger of the assassin for their opponents. It is hardly fair to compare the knightly Babar with this crowd, just as it would be out of place to compare their petty courts with the court of the Mughal Emperors at Delhi or Agra – Akbar and Shah Jahan and others...



Glimpses, vol. I, pp. 450-51
Letter dated August 26, 1932


http://www.cpsindia.org/index.php/pub/162-ayodhya-and-the-future-india/contents/supplementary-notes

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:29 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the above is probably what happened when the Aryans migrated to India. In the case of Babur there is sufficient evidence (not just the Baburnama but many other historical documents) to show that he was pushed out of his native land by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan.
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)

isn't it time now to get off your high horse? for how long will you continue arguments without having adequate knowledge of the facts of the case?

FYI, Babur lived and ruled in the region in and around Kabul (in present day Afghanistan)--after being kicked out of his native Ferghana (in present day Uzbekistan)-- for about 20 years before his invasion of India in 1526 AD. He arrived in India at the age of 43 and died 4 years later at the age of 47.
Proves my point -- his ultimate goal was to reach Delhi in the promised land (India -- land of milk, honey and riches) and not settle anywhere else or go back home (which he could have done after conquering Kabul initially, but didn't do).
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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:34 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
There is little circumstantial evidence to back up the above claims. If Babar had really been pushed out of his kingdom by the Uzbeg Shaybani Khan (USK), then the first thing he (like any other vanquished ruler / leader before, then or later) would do after capturing the throne in Delhi is to launch a revenge attack against USK. Since he didn't do such a thing (attack USK), that means he was not really pushed out by anyone (USK for example) from his place and that he himself had left his home by free will (looking to go to a better place). Moreover, he did not consider his old place (home) as nice / good materially (in terms of riches and comforts) as his new place (India), which left him with no incentive / attraction to go back to his old place militarily or otherwise.

the answer is that after getting pushed out of his native place Babur did not go back for any revenge attack for fear of being annihilated. India, was relatively speaking, easy pickings. Babur's descendants made some attempts  to recapture their homeland and make it a part of the Mughal empire but they failed.

-----
Although Babur is descended from the fearsome Timur, he was himself born to a rather modest father, the ruler of the small principality of Fargana. Babur struggled to gain a toehold in his home and was eventually forced into neighbouring Afghanistan. It was here that his military genius flowered and he ruled Kabul for more than a decade....

the Mughals always had a desire to take back the birthplace of their founder. At the height of Mughal power, Shah Jahan sent his sons, Murad and Aurangzeb into Central Asia, with the ultimate aim of conquering the legendary city of Samarkand, now in Uzbekistan. The Mughal army never did reach the city, being furiously tormented by the Uzbek tribes in a land that was, after more than a hundred years, now completely foreign to them.

Historian Abraham Eraly writes that in spite of spending Rs 20 million on this campaign, the Mughals gained nothing from it.


https://scroll.in/article/739064/babur-timur-and-shastri-as-modi-visits-tashkent-a-short-history-of-indo-uzbek-ties
It's simply a case of Babar, along with more than 10000 men / soldiers, voluntarily leaving his homeland for a better life life in a far-off place. He had enough men at his disposal to continue fighting to regain control of his kingdom if he was really being pushed out, but he did not do that. It just shows that he was looking for a better life elsewhere than living miserably and in deprivation in his own place. Moreover, while heading to far-off India (beyond mountains etc. and via a very rough and dangerous route), he did not stop on the way to live in another place or take a detour to Iran etc. (which were closer to him on his way). That means he really had heard about India as the much better  place than others (including his own and others on / near his way to India) and therefore he headed straight to India and never bothered to go back. Who can blame him? He was a smart man and knew that he was just lucky to have left the mess behind (which you so much glorify)
Just take a look at Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkemenistan, Afghanistan, PakiSatan, etc., and compare with India. There simply is no comparison. Babar came from a very backward and troubled region and his descendants enjoyed the benefits of living in a prosperous and tolerant land. Monomaniacs made a mess in those other countries after they became the majority - they are all backward eating dirt. Aurangazeb's sishya should advocate conversion of those countries back to Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and other pagan ways. If that happens, they will also taste some prosperity.

Let's not forget that Babur's native place was leading the world in the field of astronomy at one time, that Babur's own ancestor Ulugh Beg was one of the world's foremost astronomer at one time, and that the astronomical achievements of Ulugh Beg and his team provided inspiration and impetus to Indian astronomy:

http://such.forumotion.com/t41581-h-m-synthesis-the-influence-of-ulugh-beg-babur-s-great-ancestor-on-indian-astronomy#235035They  

Probably using their telescopes to figure out the safest and shortest route to India.

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Re: In the beautiful homeland of Mughal Emperor Babur

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