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SALMAN RUSHDIE says TRUMP MODI & BREXIT are PRODUCTS of DAMAGED TRUTH

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SALMAN  RUSHDIE says TRUMP MODI & BREXIT are PRODUCTS of DAMAGED TRUTH Empty SALMAN RUSHDIE says TRUMP MODI & BREXIT are PRODUCTS of DAMAGED TRUTH

Post by garam_kuta Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:44 pm

In today's CNN-GPS, Salman rushdie tells that Trump, Modi and Brexit are all consequences of "damaged truth", propagated in the 'information world'.

I shall post the relevant link as soon as it's available.

Shankara was right about maya - that is flawed cognition, and that what all we see is just maya.

ThrukkuraL:
Wisdom is to discern the truth irrespective of the source
எப்பொருள்  யார்யார்வாய்க் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்ப தறிவு.

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Post by garam_kuta Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:03 am

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1711/19/fzgps.01.html

"...And so, if you don't have a firm grip on the truth, then you lay yourself open to phenomena like Trump, like Modi in India, like Brexit, there's a whole range of these phenomena which, I think, all come from the same damaged reality that we're living in."
=====================================
ZAKARIA: And to add to the comic relief, there's a guy called the joker -

RUSHDIE: Yes.

ZAKARIA: - who is Donald Trump.

RUSHDIE: Who sort of is a variation on Trump, yes. In a deck of playing cards, the only two cards that don't behave properly are the joker and the Trump.

Trump's name is not in the book anyway. I thought I don't want the Trump, so I'll have the joker instead. There's this cartoon villain running for president.

ZAKARIA: Did you watch Trump and say to yourself, if I wrote this, people wouldn't believe it?

RUSHDIE: Yes.

ZAKARIA: Sometimes Trump is stranger than fiction.

RUSHDIE: Totally stranger than fiction. I've had dinner with my friend, Ian McEwan, and we were agreeing that if we had presented this as a story to our publishers, they would have said, go away and try harder. It's implausible.

So, we live in this age in which the implausible is what's happening.

ZAKARIA: Why do you think that is? What is going on in America that has allowed for this kind of -?

RUSHDIE: Well, I don't think it's just America. But I think there's a broken relationship with reality. I think that people don't believe things anymore because - and I don't think this has just to do with the Trump administration.

I think a lot of it has to do with the information age. That out there, on the Web now, truth and untruth exist at the same level of authority and I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to judge which is which.

And so, if you don't have a firm grip on the truth, then you lay yourself open to phenomena like Trump, like Modi in India, like Brexit, there's a whole range of these phenomena which, I think, all come from the same damaged reality that we're living in.

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Post by Idéfix Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:25 am

That out there, on the Web now, truth and untruth exist at the same level of authority and I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to judge which is which.
This is the crux of it. I am reminded of the back and forth I had on CH about a probability problem several years ago.

The demise of institutional authority over the truth seems inevitable. People don't really believe experts, governments, the media, or the elites any more. People believe what they want to believe, and the platforms that seem to be winning are the ones that explicitly cater to our biases. Platforms that use algorithms to detect your biases and show articles that confirm your biases do better than platforms that present a broad range of opinion. The real fascinating question for me is whether this is a new phenomenon, or a return to how the world used to be before the printing press and then radio and TV centralized the means of information dissemination and thereby created institutions with authority over the truth.
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Post by garam_kuta Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:39 pm

Idéfix wrote:
That out there, on the Web now, truth and untruth exist at the same level of authority and I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to judge which is which.
This is the crux of it. I am reminded of the back and forth I had on CH about a probability problem several years ago.

The demise of institutional authority over the truth seems inevitable. People don't really believe experts, governments, the media, or the elites any more. People believe what they want to believe, and the platforms that seem to be winning are the ones that explicitly cater to our biases. Platforms that use algorithms to detect your biases and show articles that confirm your biases do better than platforms that present a broad range of opinion. The real fascinating question for me is whether this is a new phenomenon, or a return to how the world used to be before the printing press and then radio and TV centralized the means of information dissemination and thereby created institutions with authority over the truth.

A+
exactly - such a tragedy, this abuse of exponential advancement in information technology...

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:27 pm

Idéfix wrote:
That out there, on the Web now, truth and untruth exist at the same level of authority and I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to judge which is which.
This is the crux of it. I am reminded of the back and forth I had on CH about a probability problem several years ago.

The demise of institutional authority over the truth seems inevitable. People don't really believe experts, governments, the media, or the elites any more. People believe what they want to believe, and the platforms that seem to be winning are the ones that explicitly cater to our biases. Platforms that use algorithms to detect your biases and show articles that confirm your biases do better than platforms that present a broad range of opinion. The real fascinating question for me is whether this is a new phenomenon, or a return to how the world used to be before the printing press and then radio and TV centralized the means of information dissemination and thereby created institutions with authority over the truth.

Good observation but the problem isn’t that simple. Truth is a buzzword and if used in an absolute sense, becomes dogma. Russell has the proper advice – gather as much info as possible, test and analyze rigorously and accept as temporary truth with an attitude that you will revise conclusions based on new knowledge.

Social science heavily depends on statistical analyses and incomplete data. Information in this arena can’t be of high quality unless society evolves and embraces rational ways. You can’t deny that Trump is the elected president. Obviously, there are enough people in society that are comfortable with the likes of Trump. His election reflects where society is now! So, a lot of work is needed in social sciences to educate people and to create ways to uplift society….. 

Society can’t transform overnight. Good change usually comes slow so that people have time to digest and incorporate into their core thinking. If enough people insist on the quality of evidence rather than on “truth”, society will have a chance to become more mature. … 


More harm is done through the “dictatorship of proletariat” and “the last prophet” & “power runs through the barrel of the gun” approaches…..  

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Post by Guest Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:33 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
That out there, on the Web now, truth and untruth exist at the same level of authority and I think it's very difficult sometimes for people to judge which is which.
This is the crux of it. I am reminded of the back and forth I had on CH about a probability problem several years ago.

The demise of institutional authority over the truth seems inevitable. People don't really believe experts, governments, the media, or the elites any more. People believe what they want to believe, and the platforms that seem to be winning are the ones that explicitly cater to our biases. Platforms that use algorithms to detect your biases and show articles that confirm your biases do better than platforms that present a broad range of opinion. The real fascinating question for me is whether this is a new phenomenon, or a return to how the world used to be before the printing press and then radio and TV centralized the means of information dissemination and thereby created institutions with authority over the truth.

Good observation but the problem isn’t that simple. Truth is a buzzword and if used in an absolute sense, becomes dogma. Russell has the proper advice – gather as much info as possible, test and analyze rigorously and accept as temporary truth with an attitude that you will revise conclusions based on new knowledge.

Social science heavily depends on statistical analyses and incomplete data. Information in this arena can’t be of high quality unless society evolves and embraces rational ways. You can’t deny that Trump is the elected president. Obviously, there are enough people in society that are comfortable with the likes of Trump. His election reflects where society is now! So, a lot of work is needed in social sciences to educate people and to create ways to uplift society….. 

Society can’t transform overnight. Good change usually comes slow so that people have time to digest and incorporate into their core thinking. If enough people insist on the quality of evidence rather than on “truth”, society will have a chance to become more mature. … 


More harm is done through the “dictatorship of proletariat” and “the last prophet” & “power runs through the barrel of the gun” approaches…..  

the above seems to be a cut and paste from some other forum. sandilya has been known to do this from time to time.

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Post by garam_kuta Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:49 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
....More harm is done through the “dictatorship of proletariat” and “the last prophet” & “power runs through the barrel of the gun” approaches….

Given the glorification of war and its power from time immemorial, I never cease to amaze at the evolution and sustenance of the Buddhist period in human history, and it's brief resurgence in gandhi's time.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:02 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
....More harm is done through the “dictatorship of proletariat” and “the last prophet” & “power runs through the barrel of the gun” approaches….

Given the glorification of war and its power from time immemorial, I never cease to amaze at the evolution and sustenance of the Buddhist period in human history, and it's brief resurgence in gandhi's time.
Good observation. I attribute Buddhism's success to its firm base in the Upanishads. His ideas are rational, his objective is of great relevance to society and his movement comes at the right time in history. Obviously, man did somewhat evolve beyond his primitive pieceful ways. The average Indian still incorporates some Buddhist ways into his thinking.

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Post by Idéfix Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:02 pm

I agree with all that. Trump got elected because there are more than 60 million people who came out and voted for him. So it is very clear that a lot of Americans are quite comfortable with his ideas and actions.

The thing I find fascinating is this: in the last few years, there have been many instances of utter disregard for the truth. Here are a few examples:

1. A good percentage of Americans believed in 2015 that WMDs were found in Iraq.
2. When the president said that he had the biggest electoral college win since Reagan, that was an objectively false statement, but one that his supporters are cool with.
3. Many educated people in India still believe that there is a "GPS chip" in the new 2,000 rupee note.

There is easily accessible, reliable evidence to disprove these beliefs. But the beliefs themselves persist. It is possible to take the policy positions that Trump takes, but without the egregious, easy-to-verify lying. Yet he lies rather brazenly, and his supporters actually like that sort of thing. They like that lying style over the less-deceitful style of conservative alternatives. I find that really fascinating.
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:25 pm

Idéfix wrote:I agree with all that. Trump got elected because there are more than 60 million people who came out and voted for him. So it is very clear that a lot of Americans are quite comfortable with his ideas and actions.

The thing I find fascinating is this: in the last few years, there have been many instances of utter disregard for the truth. Here are a few examples:

1. A good percentage of Americans believed in 2015 that WMDs were found in Iraq.
2. When the president said that he had the biggest electoral college win since Reagan, that was an objectively false statement, but one that his supporters are cool with.
3. Many educated people in India still believe that there is a "GPS chip" in the new 2,000 rupee note.

There is easily accessible, reliable evidence to disprove these beliefs. But the beliefs themselves persist. It is possible to take the policy positions that Trump takes, but without the egregious, easy-to-verify lying. Yet he lies rather brazenly, and his supporters actually like that sort of thing. They like that lying style over the less-deceitful style of conservative alternatives. I find that really fascinating.
Yeah, complicated issues. Trump getting away with his BS (and convincing his vote-banks) is indicative of how much work that is needed to really make the US a developed nation.

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Post by Idéfix Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:14 pm

On Buddhism... I don't think historically Buddhism as an organized religion was particularly opposed to war. Buddhist kings routinely made war on their neighbors, in both offensive and defensive situations. I remember reading about a Buddhist chronicle that said thousands of Jainas were killed by Ashoka for the offense of disrespecting the Buddha. That's not the Jainas complaining that Ashoka persecuted them due to religious differences, that's the Buddhists saying Ashoka did so!
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Post by Idéfix Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:20 pm

Correction: it was Ajivikas that the Buddhist book claims Ashoka persecuted because one of them drew a picture of the Buddha bowing at the feet of their spiritual master.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashokavadana#Ashoka.27s_Buddhist_kingship
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:32 pm

Idéfix wrote:On Buddhism... I don't think historically Buddhism as an organized religion was particularly opposed to war. Buddhist kings routinely made war on their neighbors, in both offensive and defensive situations. I remember reading about a Buddhist chronicle that said thousands of Jainas were killed by Ashoka for the offense of disrespecting the Buddha. That's not the Jainas complaining that Ashoka persecuted them due to religious differences, that's the Buddhists saying Ashoka did so!
Yes, Sanjeev Sanyal talked about Asoka, the pieceful Buddhist. In his view, we have a skewed view of Asoka. He also talked about many important kingdoms of the South (Krishnadevaraya, Satavahanas, Martanda Varma, the Cholas, etc.) that are not properly shown in Indian history text books....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSk3fvcmd9U

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Idéfix wrote:On Buddhism... I don't think historically Buddhism as an organized religion was particularly opposed to war. Buddhist kings routinely made war on their neighbors, in both offensive and defensive situations. I remember reading about a Buddhist chronicle that said thousands of Jainas were killed by Ashoka for the offense of disrespecting the Buddha. That's not the Jainas complaining that Ashoka persecuted them due to religious differences, that's the Buddhists saying Ashoka did so!
Yes, Sanjeev Sanyal talked about Asoka, the pieceful Buddhist. In his view, we have a skewed view of Asoka. He also talked about many important kingdoms of the South (Krishnadevaraya, Satavahanas, Martanda Varma, the Cholas, etc.) that are not properly shown in Indian history text books....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSk3fvcmd9U
Here is another one by Sanyal on Asoka:

Watch from 26 to 43 min for his views on Asoka:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukq_8FeQTaA

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