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TW

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:02 am

Hey, can I talk a bit about my past and present? It might verge on narcissism (thus the need for approval) but expatiating will help me hear what I am thinking. And it is better done before an imaginary crowd of a million people (apologies for wrongly quoting the strength of this board -- I do not know most of those members who joined after I left).

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:10 am

go on ahead! Dunno about millions, but I am listening Very Happy

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:52 pm

There is not much left to read or learn or think about. I have trodden the same terrain multiple times from different angles and then consolidated the information in math. Today I had memories of my youth that I had never known existed. And then I was dreaming of writing fiction again. Besides the fact that a desire to write something beautiful had emerged in a way that I could associate with from thirty years ago, I had also this sense that I probably knew more, about human beings, as a young boy than I do now. And then I realized that I actually couldn't evaluate that young boy honestly. It isn't that it is just the illusion of reality that has been broken. The illusion applies to each and every thing in that reality. If I believe I know that young boy very well and can, now, identify with his desires, then that too is an illusion. I can only imagine what he could have been and that would be part truth, part fiction but totally unreliable. 

I'll write more later.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:06 pm

"Today I had memories of my youth that I had never known existed."

Real memory of some event? Or memory of writing fiction? Regardless, do share...

I go down the memory lane often. It's not necessarily by choice. I wish some research could explain if some people are simply wired that way. I don't exactly live in the past. In my more conscious thoughts, I am always dreaming of some future, although that happens lesser now. What's funny is that some of these 'future dreams' from my past (i used to almost draw a pic in my head), are still so vivid that I can picture them even now, and then i can't help but smile how far off I was in my [past] dreams [of future].

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:10 pm

If we can imagine what the universe, in reality, is, then the universe is not that way. The reality of the universe is defined as a paradox. Its reality is maximally unknowable. But we still do know a few things about it: namely that it isn't anything that we can imagine (be it God, be it nothingness). If it were not that way, I don't think we could have existed.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:26 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:"Today I had memories of my youth that I had never known existed."

Real memory of some event? Or memory of writing fiction? Regardless, do share...

I go down the memory lane often. It's not necessarily by choice. I wish some research could explain if some people are simply wired that way. I don't exactly live in the past. In my more conscious thoughts, I am always dreaming of some future, although that happens lesser now. What's funny is that some of these 'future dreams' from my past (i used to almost draw a pic in my head), are still so vivid that I can picture them even now, and then i can't help but smile how far off I was in my [past] dreams [of future].

Yes, I think we are wired that way. Physicists believe time could be a fiction created by us. The mathematician Godel, a friend of Einstein, had reasoned, "Einstein's field equations have a solution in which travel back in time is possible. The only logical inference of that is that time is inconsistent and thus does not exist." But, anyway, if we are wired to create time, then we are also wired to create an unchanging image of ourselves, or a copy of ourselves, to reflect the unchanging copy of the universe where our science works -- one necessitates the other, or, they are inseparable. That is why Buddha and other sages say that our notion of our self, namely our baggage of our history that defines us, should be destroyed to achieve liberation. But if that were the case, I'd rather jump off a bridge. 

I was shopping for two flats for my kids in a new area today. It was hot. The high rises were concrete pretty. As I looked up at the high rises from a landscaped area, I felt that the world and its people were infinitely complex and I felt a bit afraid and disoriented.. and then I got sucked into the memories of similar feelings that I hadn't had since I graduated.

What were your ideas about your future then? Do share.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:36 pm

OnePlus5t wrote:
What were your ideas about your future then? Do share.

ooh... a bad topic to get me started on a rainy slow Friday afternoon, lol. I could fill pages on this one. In short, dreams changed with age. But on the whole, they were pretty lofty ones of 'having it all', very idealistic and materialistic, all rolled into one. Have a lover for a husband, 2-3 perfectly raised [by me] kids, both husband and i collaborating on business stuff that made us millionaires, having business and houses in all parts of the world, and then details of how we will build mansions or high-rises with suites for all key family members. Build malls, i used to design one for hours (later i learned my best designs matched the most basic malls here, but i mean i was just 15). My most recurrent visual i remember is of we (husband and i - the boy changed according to whoever i was fancying at the time), both working late into night, alternately working and seksing together, and smoking. For some strange reason it always involved smoking. I think that's coz my uncle was a hard working lawyer/judge and a chain smoker, so maybe i associated long hours of work with chain-smoking. ooh i also had lofty dreams of hiring chefs that can make all kinds of cuisine, in my kitchen. Daily at-home salon/massage treatments. And some dreams were not of very honorable kind, so I will skip those hehe.

Anyway, this morning I was having tea in my kitchen, and in my backyard there were a lot of birds, small black birds, dunno what they are called, in green/brown and gray misty backdrop. Nearly 30 of them. First I wondered what change of season brought them here, then I just enjoyed watching them. Felt like i am sitting in some fairy land. God knows what they found to eat there, but they were constantly flying up and down the tall trees to eat something in the ground. I felt as if they're doing so only in my backyard (kinda makes sense coz almost all my other neighbors have dogs or other construction). And for some reason it took me back to how i would be day-dreaming on my terrace back home, and there were many many birds around there too. Sent me into nostalgia. Made me realize I may have always loved birds, but i guess it was not a very active memory for me. Dunno, I have always said if given a choice i would like to be a bird who can soar high (I absolutely loved that imax movie which let you see a bird's view). And for some reason, to see those birds energetically taking a deep flight down and flying up quick gave me so much energy and joy. I felt as if i was blessed with that view... usually I click and post pics of everything that I like, but this one I just kept for my soul...

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:14 am

Birds get a billion heart beats in one life -- same as that for all other animals (including man). I used to look at sparrows when I was young and imagine that it might look to us that they move very fast but it could just be that we were very slow. The perception of time might be the same for every heart beat for every creature. I was trapped in the world of phenomena then. Perhaps I had willed myself to that level of perception, to determine my own causality for human behavior that looked very complex at the macroscopic level. From that level of perception, it was inconceivable that I could love a girl like you, simply because it was inconceivable that you could love a boy who was still naive about the world and its occupants. It still seems alien to me that a girl, 15 years old, would dream of mansions, yachts, businesses, sex and family too. It isn't that I wouldn't have given an arm and a leg to be the man in such a world, but it is just that I would not have enjoyed the environment were it not for the fact that there was a girl in it who would have sex and share cigarettes with me. That I myself came from a rich family -- that I had either forgotten or did not care.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 am

15-16 is when I was designing malls and big houses for a big family (coz I was into xb at the time and he had a huge joint family). The dreams took a bigger turn I think 17 onwards. It is not very complicated. One has to be naive to be dreaming like this at that age. I guess I would get influenced by every novel I read. But the basic theme remained. I always had a husband and kids and he and I working together on something. Sometimes my dreams would be more realistic and still very romantic, dreaming of moving to a BIG city (always Mumbai) and work for multinational corporations (I think this became a thing in early 90s). Living in a small flat and work our way up slowly to own a duplex (this is after I went to someone’s duplex in bandra once). Part of the reason why I couldn’t commit to xb was that he seemed happy in that small town life and joining his dad’s business. He just wanted a wife who was glam enough to throw parties and housewifely enough to flip roties for him. Eeps. Lol years later when we reconnected he taunted me. ‘I google you often. Given your ambitions I imagined you must have become a big name by now’. Lol. Oh well. When I get off the bed I will search my laptop to see if I had written about our conflicts back then.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:08 am

found it... 

I liked talking with Kamal. On the outside he had this outgoing, fun, I-give-a-damn personality. Some would even call him shallow or a loser. But on the inside, he had this dark, serious, and philosophical side to him. Very passionate. Very few have seen that. That side of him came out only with a select few. Whom he was really close to. That side of both of us was what connected us. We would hold lengthy conversations talking purely using analogies. No real situation or person mentioned. Only analogies and yet the message conveyed. We talked a lot about relationships, friendships, God, religion, sex, crime, adventure. We talked about everything under the sun.

We talked so much and so openly that we knew each other through and through. The good, the bad and the ugly. The ugly was showing up now. Our expectations from each other could not have been more disparate. And that was the irony, in my opinion. We literally grew up together and yet we grew so apart. We talked so much, we shared all our thoughts but our thoughts never synced up. We ended growing up as our families stereotypes. Him, wanting a dutiful daughter-in-law and a wife. Somebody who could look glamorous, cook him three meals a day, massage his grandma’s feet in the night and host great parties for him and his family. That was all. Throw in a movie and a vacation and his life was set. Me, on the other hand, wanted an independent and adventurous life. I was not averse to living in a joint family, but I had dreams to move to a big city like Bombay and make it big there. Earn a lot of money, our own money. Not inherited money. I wanted an equal equation with my husband. A liberal environment. I could see his family was liberal. But he was not.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:17 am

 One has to be naive to be dreaming like this at that age. I guess I would get influenced by every novel I read. But the basic theme remained. I always had a husband and kids and he and I working together on something. 

Very naive, one has to be, to think like that at 15/16. Because it was impossible to get there in ten lifetimes -- from where you were. Still you got there. Sadly it isn't because of anything you did right. It's because of all the things you did wrong, including dreaming at 15 that you could get there, LOL. 

It is interesting that you also nurture a side that likes to reflect and write. I think that makes you an interesting person. I don't think the essential personality of a person ever changes. I mean: your interesting-ness, for someone like me, would not have diminished even if you had gone on to own a few barbie malls. Your second post about Kamal is actually well written.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:38 am

OnePlus5t wrote:
 One has to be naive to be dreaming like this at that age. I guess I would get influenced by every novel I read. But the basic theme remained. I always had a husband and kids and he and I working together on something. 

It is interesting that you also nurture a side that likes to reflect and write.

i do that only on this board, for all other purposes i am the most boring person you will know. [deleted the rest, man i talk too much]

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:23 am

OnePlus5t wrote:If we can imagine what the universe, in reality, is, then the universe is not that way. The reality of the universe is defined as a paradox. Its reality is maximally unknowable. But we still do know a few things about it: namely that it isn't anything that we can imagine (be it God, be it nothingness). If it were not that way, I don't think we could have existed.

This is the consequence of thinking too much. I amaze myself, really. Nothing prevents the universe from being exactly the way we imagine it or perceive it. Everything is possible. The reality of the universe is not a paradox.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:02 am

Mathematicans are such idiots. Some of them believe in platonic forms. Ek jannat hai. Us jannat mein pari rahiti hein. Sab kuch sunhera hai. Farishte, badalon pe pankhe hilate hain aur pankhe ke neeche lete hote hain perfect triangle maharaj, circle ji aur square sir. Isse realistic to shayad gudda guddi ka khel hota hai?

So this Godel sir was a Platonist. He was proud that his world famous theorem had proved that mathematical intuition is always zindabad -- and to him this privately proved that if intuition exists, then it follows that platonic heaven too exists. Towards Godel's death, one mathematician, Cohen, proved that Godel's theorems also led to some other mathematical truth called "proof by forcing." Mathematically speaking it wasn't a big deal. But Godel became pensive when he saw the proof, for, if Godel was consistent, he had to now accept that that theorem "implied" that a platonic heaven did not exist. An entire life's work got undone for Godel (in his private universe). This is among the many reasons why he died disillusioned.

Godel's friend Einstein had proved relativity. To Einstein it privately proved that God existed. Let us not ask how for if I think hard enough, even I can prove that my past proves the existence of God. Then quantum mechanics proved God played dice -- khuda juwari hai. Einstein too died disillusioned. The most brilliant physicist became unscientific towards his end. 

There are many more examples. Hawking says that there is no theory of everything in physics. Penrose says the same thing while adding/proving that computers can't think like humans. Weinberg says the same thing. Weinberg even says -- quantum mechanics is wrong. LOL. I mean what did an unthinking, inanimate universe do to these brilliant guys that after an illustrious career, they are swimming against the tide? Nobody can say that there is no theory of anything in any science for there isn't a proof for it and/or that quantum mechanics is wrong or computers can't think like humans. These scientists, when they were young, had laughed at other old scientists for being addle brained. Now these scientists have become them and they refuse to acknowledge they have? How does life happen without our knowing how it is happening? 

I fought bitterly with my dad when I was in my 40s. I also knew I wouldn't do to my kids what my dad did to me. Now I am not so sure of my future self. I am going to gift all assets in my name to them and also those of my wife. 

Going back to Godel, Godel's theorem proved to him that a platonic heaven existed. The same theorem is called Cantor's cardinality theorem in set theory. Cantor's theorem proved to Cantor that there was no platonic heaven, but there was instead God in the universe. 

Whatever does God and heaven have to do with a cold, hard thing like science? God and meaning of life aren't even chapters in science! Why do some of the most brilliant minds get waylaid like this? I thought Hawking was an atheist -- but even he has made an about turn?

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:59 pm

The point of my previous post was that I once convinced myself into believing (and it came naturally), that, I know that the universe is based on the principle that the only certainty is that there is no certainty, and that I know mankind has made unprovable assumptions about reality, and that I know enough not to take life seriously or ever make the mistake of believing anything to be inviolably true, and that I would need only logic to live by, not the assurance of any unprovable assumptions; but then there came a time for me when I discovered that I had made some assumptions inviolably true and that I don't remember when I did it and that they have been shattered and, worse, I never realized that it is not possible to be human without inventing inviolable artificial truths and that I used logic to lie to myself about myself (that logic was trustworthy) before I would use it to lie to me about the world. But what do I do now? My life, toh, has been lived? 

It could be an unprovable assertion like the existence of a platonic heaven, the existence of God, or, in my case, that reason could never lie, or, in your case that chocolate candies don't make us fat. I don't remember when I reposed trust in reason despite swearing I wouldn't in anything. Everyone around me suddenly seems to have always known that reason can lie. Then why did they not tell me this earlier? My kids and wife laugh and say that there is no cure for madness. I am looking for the barbie doll my wife believes is the truth. One day I will find it and I will kill it. Let me see her reaction then.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:16 am

I was going through my posts in the music section here, to listen to the songs I once found enchanting. This song put me on a Ferris wheel and I felt my stomach sink, rise, sink. 



I read the comments and saw that blabberwock had sent me this song. I ransacked the ferris wheel to see if it contained any memories of her and found that surprisingly it didn't. This song was not associated with her. It was associated with memories of my youth - a youth that could never return. 

That means  I never loved her, I thought. But perhaps I loved her? That's why I'd love anything she'd like? But if that were true, then the song would have reminded me of her too. But the fact that I am thinking about her now is proof that it does remind me of her too? I listened to the song again and reasoned that it was possible for there was a lingering memory of yahoo messenger in it too. Then it was true, as people say, that I loved her? I would have to investigate, I felt. I would have to go back and reread our exchanges to understand if I was trying to hide anything. And if I tried harder not to think of the elephant, I would eventually stop thinking about it. But I did not return to the exchanges, despite having had carefully saved a copy of them, because I never did since that day in 2012 because I never could. Somehow, those exchanges were one thing that could shame me over and over again. Somehow I knew this and thus always avoided them; just as i was now trying to hide that the song reminded me of her too. 

If I could not answer whether I loved her, then who could? The person closest to the event was Blabberwock herself. It could be answered objectively only by her.

So I went over to her apartment and rang the doorbell. She received me with courtesy and we settled down in her apartment's terrace over a cup of coffee. I showed her what I had written up till now. She smiled. Surely you know, she said, that I was fond of this song from before I recommended it to you? I said yes. She looked wistfully into the setting sun and said, I listen to it now sometimes because it evokes in me feelings of my youth that are extremely hard to recall except through this song. But don't any of those memories include me, I asked? She thought for a while and said, No, but why should they? I did not understand? I said even I did not understand. Did you love me then, I asked her bluntly? She thought for a while and then said, I remember being very angry at you but I am not sure if I loved you. Think a bit harder na, please, I requested. Well, she said, looking at you, ya, sure, I can see that any woman can love you. But that doesn't answer my question, I said. OK, she proposed, let's try the whole thing again. You write me a note in Such and we will repeat whatever happened. Hopefully by the end of it we would have an answer to your question? And if you wouldn't, I'd tell you if I loved you? I realized that this wasn't going anywhere. I took leave and left.

How can I know if I loved her? If nothing happened, why does this question obsess me? I do not know why I feel this way despite knowing that the only truth is that there is no truth. Nobody said that something always has to happen when two people meet. Nobody even said that if a man or woman talk on the net, there has to be, or hasn't to be, love. There could be everything between two people when they meet  except the truth? Is it so hard to understand this? Perhaps it was all in my head. But was it love that was in my head or something else? If something else, what was it? Someone has to be able to tell if I loved her then. If nobody can, then does it mean I did not love her? If nobody has the answer to these questions, then how can I ask the next question?

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:50 pm

I think in October, last year, I had gone looking for the incompleteness theorems that I had read in college. It took me two months to finish reading them. So here, I realized, was a proof for what I had always thought was merely an artistic notion -- that reality is creepy if you look at it from certain angles. The immediate effect of this, for me, was that the boundary between art and reality vanished. It needed a miracle, I realized, to mould a human brain to adjust to the constructed reality of a mob, or, to be polite, a democracy. If I could imagine myself as a participant in this collective psychosis, then that was enough -- my soul needed no more art.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:02 pm

in complete honesty, most of the posts above (the mathematical parts) went over my head. So any attempt i make to address some of [what i think i understood] will go wrong, coz i obviously am not grasping your full theory.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:18 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:in complete honesty, most of the posts above (the mathematical parts) went over my head. So any attempt i make to address some of [what i think i understood] will go wrong, coz i obviously am not grasping your full theory.
No, you won't go wrong. You are not the best judge of yourself. So speak freely when you have been queried. The mathematical parts are convoluted ways of saying the same thing: the only truth is that there isn't any.

I am not interested in the truth. i am interested in Art. If I look to you, it must mean that I will find a hint of it in your reply. There is no reason to be ashamed for what we are TW. Your honesty is also an Art even if you feel it isn't.

Lastly, my interpretations of the mathematics are just interpretations -- they have a high chance of being wrong, or, to be precise, ambiguous.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:30 pm

but i will share generic thoughts on whatever your posts triggered in me.

if you don't believe in something, Barbie doll, but your wife believes in it, then *if* you find it you will kill it, means she was right all along, regardless of what you do with it and how she reacts?

I have read and heard a lot about internet "affairs", seen it firsthand too, but I have not really been able to call it anything more than infatuation, attachment, admiration, even obsession. Different words, depending on different situations. For me, i need to see, hear, breath, sense, maybe even touch a man before i can develop any loving feeling for him. in other words, internet interaction has never turned me on or made me fall in love. But then, I have always been accused of mixing physical with love, so maybe i am not an expert in 'love'. Regardless, whenever I saw it in others i assumed it's their lack of experience, or naivety, almost virginal, but that theory can't be applied to you, afaik.

Usually the questions i ask people is - is this only in the realm of your chats, or do you think you can have a life with this person if he or she suddenly becomes available? If the honest answer to this is a no, then no, it's not love, whether it's an internet affair or a real affair. If the answer is a 'yes', no matter how improbable or impractical it sounds at the moment, that's the truth of the moment. that it is love, atleast as of now.

Another question to ask is, what was it that brought the two of you together. Was it an admiration for each other, or was it some external factor? A common hate for someone; a common love for someone; the ease of a chat portal? Did this external factor stay as is throughout your relationship, or did you ever move beyond that? If that external factor stayed, then to me it means it was a limited attachment, a bond catalyzed by that event, but temporary. It couldn't have been sustained.

Lastly, i think just because a song reminded you of something, doesn't mean much in itself. The way my memory is wired, i remember the first of many things that i learned, and the factors surrounding it. It may be associated with the worst enemies that I had. But that doesn't send me in a spin if i loved them. It's like wallpaper, it's there. But the fact that you want to rake up that part of your memory, means you have some unfinished business, or love, or both. Not sure if you will be able to answer it. So another the followup question, did you love yes? or did you love no? Will the answer make any difference? If no, then let it go.

last lastly, i will quote your wife when she said she's the only one in your life. There's no one else. She's real, all else is fantasy. So stop looking Smile And I think i believe her.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:38 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:but i will share generic thoughts on whatever your posts triggered in me.
Acceptable. But it is only tomorrow that I might response.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:47 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:

last lastly, i will quote your wife when she said she's the only one in your life. There's no one else. She's real, all else is fantasy. So stop looking Smile And I think i believe her.

ROFL!

I am so confused that I do not know where and how to begin to reply to your intricate post. But I will surmount this challenge tomorrow and post!

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:but i will share generic thoughts on whatever your posts triggered in me.

if you don't believe in something, Barbie doll, but your wife believes in it, then *if* you find it you will kill it, means she was right all along, regardless of what you do with it and how she reacts?
We surprise ourselves, don't we? But, anyway, I'll reply pointedly tomorrow.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:13 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:
Usually the questions i ask people is - is this only in the realm of your chats, or do you think you can have a life with this person if he or she suddenly becomes available? If the honest answer to this is a no, then no, it's not love, whether it's an internet affair or a real affair. If the answer is a 'yes', no matter how improbable or impractical it sounds at the moment, that's the truth of the moment. that it is love, atleast as of now.
And what happens after "now?" 

It is my inviolable opinion that after "now" you have to keep trying to make the future become same as "now." 

No? If you can't, then what is the difference between you and an animal?

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:29 pm

OnePlus5t wrote:
rasāsvāda wrote:
Usually the questions i ask people is - is this only in the realm of your chats, or do you think you can have a life with this person if he or she suddenly becomes available? If the honest answer to this is a no, then no, it's not love, whether it's an internet affair or a real affair. If the answer is a 'yes', no matter how improbable or impractical it sounds at the moment, that's the truth of the moment. that it is love, atleast as of now.
And what happens after "now?" 

It is my inviolable opinion that after "now" you have to keep trying to make the future become same as "now." 

No? If you can't, then what is the difference between you and an animal?

circumstances change. feelings change. People always go out of love. What i meant to say was, that if you felt, at any point in a relationship, that you can live a life with that person if that person becomes available, then yes at some point you did love that person, no matter where you are now. If you never felt that (have to be honest with yourself here), then it was not love, it was pure convenience or fantasy, or anything else, but not love. Atleast that's the way i see things. Coz a person in love honestly thinks that they can leave or rearrange everything to live with that person. There is a big gap in thinking it and doing it, and that's where most affairs fail, but to honestly even think of that possibility after knowing exactly what it will entail, i think qualifies as love. Not to be confused with infatuation. I think infatuation is when you think of the same but are ignorant of all outcomes and sacrifices.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:01 am

rasāsvāda wrote:but i will share generic thoughts on whatever your posts triggered in me.

if you don't believe in something, Barbie doll, but your wife believes in it, then *if* you find it you will kill it, means she was right all along, regardless of what you do with it and how she reacts?

This portion I did not understand. I had likened her Barbie doll to the notion of truth, beauty or platonism. 



I have read and heard a lot about internet "affairs", seen it firsthand too, but I have not really been able to call it anything more than infatuation, attachment, admiration, even obsession. Different words, depending on different situations. For me, i need to see, hear, breath, sense, maybe even touch a man before i can develop any loving feeling for him. in other words, internet interaction has never turned me on or made me fall in love. But then, I have always been accused of mixing physical with love, so maybe i am not an expert in 'love'. Regardless, whenever I saw it in others i assumed it's their lack of experience, or naivety, almost virginal, but that theory can't be applied to you, afaik.

Usually the questions i ask people is - is this only in the realm of your chats, or do you think you can have a life with this person if he or she suddenly becomes available? If the honest answer to this is a no, then no, it's not love, whether it's an internet affair or a real affair. If the answer is a 'yes', no matter how improbable or impractical it sounds at the moment, that's the truth of the moment. that it is love, atleast as of now.

Yes, this makes sense. An internet affair is not the same as a real life one. And curiously, whether I love blabberwock or my wife or you, is a question that has an obvious answer too in our hearts. There is no confusion. But how did I live such a practical life despite being such a hopeless dreamer? To imagine a true love somewhere up in the clouds with a woman... do I not know that after 51 years, I should not dream, for it has been said, over and over...

...that there is no platonic heaven. One should concern oneself only with irregular shapes. 

When will I learn? Will I dream on my deathbed too? 

In another time, another universe, we are young. It is hot in Mumbai. We have hopped and skipped across Marine Drive and have entered the icy air of Asiatic store, hand in hand. We sip from one bottle of Milkos with two straws, looking into each others eyes. I can see the white of your big, round eyes.  The woman keeps changing but the scene is always the same. 


Another question to ask is, what was it that brought the two of you together. Was it an admiration for each other, or was it some external factor? A common hate for someone; a common love for someone; the ease of a chat portal? Did this external factor stay as is throughout your relationship, or did you ever move beyond that? If that external factor stayed, then to me it means it was a limited attachment, a bond catalyzed by that event, but temporary. It couldn't have been sustained.

With the amount of insane abstraction that I do in my head, I can see why I would fall head over heels, I mean utterly hopelessly, in love with a practical woman like you.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:44 am

rasāsvāda wrote:

circumstances change. feelings change. People always go out of love. What i meant to say was, that if you felt, at any point in a relationship, that you can live a life with that person if that person becomes available, then yes at some point you did love that person, no matter where you are now. If you never felt that (have to be honest with yourself here), then it was not love, it was pure convenience or fantasy, or anything else, but not love. Atleast that's the way i see things. Coz a person in love honestly thinks that they can leave or rearrange everything to live with that person. There is a big gap in thinking it and doing it, and that's where most affairs fail, but to honestly even think of that possibility after knowing exactly what it will entail, i think qualifies as love. Not to be confused with infatuation. I think infatuation is when you think of the same but are ignorant of all outcomes and sacrifices.

Yes, I agree. To answer your question -- no, I did not love her. We can tell if it is love because the expression comes with deep feelings that are physical and mental. Reality gets coloured as well and one likes everything the other person likes. I think the neuroscientists have some electrochemical explanation for it too from the point of view of sexual reproduction.  And if the love is strong, then it lasts even after the infatuation wears off. You can also fall out of love later. There is no rule here per se. To some extent love requires a commitment from one to be consistent and predictable -- a trait that is necessary for survival. Khair, choro in sab baton ko. I cannot sustain one mood for long -- I get bored. 

This is the paneer & veggies with dal that is my daily lunch:


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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:09 am

OnePlus5t wrote:

In another time, another universe, we are young. It is hot in Mumbai. We have hopped and skipped across Marine Drive and have entered the icy air of Asiatic store, hand in hand. We sip from one bottle of Milkos with two straws, looking into each others eyes. I can see the white of your big, round eyes.  The woman keeps changing but the scene is always the same. 

Reality is creepy if you look at it from certain angles. And if reality is in infinite regress, like a kaliedoscope, then sometimes reality will be creepy if you look at it from most angles. (But it won't last.)

Physics is somewhere there today. Physics speaks of multiple universes, multiple pasts, multiple futures and multiple presents. In another universe you are a princess and I am a frog in it. And we are living in a Nordic village and there is a well in it and you are a porcelain skinned princess who wears those long princesses gowns to strut around in. 

If Physics says this is the nature of reality, then who needs fiction? We need robust laws like Newton's for a gasp of fresh air.

Physics has split the platonic form into infinite realities as in a mirror parallax and physics says -- there is a platonic heaven. You only have to add all these universes to be able to see it. Physics has finally learnt from mathematics how to define pi!

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:52 am

I once knew a TW in a forum in the net. I started flirting with her because she started flirting with me. Then she got upset because I was flirting with her and she indicated such to me. I felt broken but still left without a whimper because although it was true that I was flirting with her, it was not true that I had started it. But I still left because I realized that there was no resolution to the infinite regress of the argument she had initiated. Then I died. Lifetimes later, I visited net to revive old memories. I saw that she was flirting online with another guy in the same forum. I started scratching my head. What was happening? When and where had I started assuming that I had robbed her of a license to flirt with anyone on the net? Why was I upset?

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:11 am

lol the way you write about physics is very different from how i quote it. 

The other day I was vacuuming in son's room while he was playing on his computer. I was done with the floor and had taken the handle out to do the corners. At one point while moving the machine, i sat on his bed and my hand moved. And suddenly there was a big sucking noise from the machine, and a big gasp from son. I turned off the vacuum cleaner and was like - what did i suck in? He's like - 'you took my whole arm sleeve!!!!' Arm sleeve is something usually basketball players wear. And I was like - oops, and he was like - take it OUT! And i was like - there is no way I am going to open the dust container with my allergies, it will put me out for days. 

But soon i realized the sleeve never made it to the container. It was too big to go all the way through the nearly-3-feet handle, and at one point was stuck. Son and I took turns looking into the black handle trying to spot the black sleeve, and realized it's closer to one end. From his desk, I picked out a pencil and began trying to get to it. Soon we were taking turns to use two pencils together to grip it and pull it out, but it was stuck badly. So now in one of those desperate idiotic moments, i pushed it down with the pencil, hoping it will loosen it a bit and make it drop out the other end. All it did was make it go further in, and now we couldn't even try getting it out with pencils. Son was still like - 'get it OUT! I don't care how ripped it is but get it out'. I could have ignored him, but I also wanted to get it out. Besides, i was in vacuum cleaning mode, and this thing had made it useless, so i had nothing else to do anyway. 

At this point i felt a little bit of claustrophobic panic attack. Anything stuck in narrow spaces does that to me. But I was able to take deep breaths out of that feeling. I went to XH's room and took one of his metal hangers out (He's the only one who gets laundry done - and he was later pissed at how i had carelessly "thrown" his pants on his bed Rolling Eyes - i had laid them neatly there, coz i know how anal he is about his ironed clothes). 

I stretched open the hanger and began pushing the sleeve down the pipe. After a couple of minutes, the hanger was completely in the pipe, but no sign of the sleeve at the other end. Son has longer fingers than mine, and it was within his reach. he was able to touch the sleeve but not well enough to grip it. So now, at the other end, I bent the hanger's end to make it blunt, then I took the pencil again and rested its end on the hanger, then found another bigger object to hit on the pencil, to create that final force in a straight line. All the while i was doing this, i was imagining that somehow my hand will slip and the pencil will poke my eye. So I kept looking away. Eventually the sleeve slipped down enough to have son reach it and pull it out. 

WHEW. THIS IS PHYSICS, I exclaimed. Son nodded. Then he went back to his game, and I went back to vacuuming.


Last edited by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:19 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:14 am

OnePlus5t wrote:I once knew a TW in a forum in the net. I started flirting with her because she started flirting with me. Then she got upset because I was flirting with her and she indicated such to me. I felt broken but still left without a whimper because although it was true that I was flirting with her, it was not true that I had started it. But I still left because I realized that there was no resolution to the infinite regress of the argument she had initiated. Then I died. Lifetimes later, I visited net to revive old memories. I saw that she was flirting online with another guy in the same forum. I started scratching my head. What was happening? When and where had I started assuming that I had robbed her of a license to flirt with anyone on the net? Why was I upset?

yaar everytime i write a big post, i realize you have posted something else. 

"I once knew a TW in a forum in the net."


TW? When did all this happen?

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:28 am

One reason the idea of love on Internet fascinates me is because the net is probably the only place where you can have pure, abstract love. You can have pure love in reality too but in reality, it might get corrupted with the nonsense of reality faster. 

I remember I had an idea long ago. An american man and a Japanese woman would play the roles of perfect lovers via entirely chat sessions that would be accessible to the public. Evidently, the two would have to be great writers of fiction to convince the public that it was real. The last session, after many months, I imagined, would end like this:

Rob: I can't do this anymore Ichiko. I can't fool myself.
Ichiko: It is the last day Rob. We are almost near the end.
Rob: You don't understand Ichiko. I am going insane here. I haven't slept in a week. I can't stop thinking of you. 
Ichiko: You can. There is no love. You know that better than me. 
Rob: Do you love me?
Ichiko: No.
Rob: Don't lie. Tell me honestly. 
Ichiko: I don't Rob.
Rob: You are writing fiction! I swear I am going to come to Tokyo and find you and kill you!
Ichiko: I will wait for you.

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:28 am

"But how did I live such a practical life despite being such a hopeless dreamer? To imagine a true love somewhere up in the clouds with a woman... do I not know that after 51 years, I should not dream, for it has been said, over and over...

...that there is no platonic heaven. One should concern oneself only with irregular shapes. 

When will I learn? Will I dream on my deathbed too? "


Honestly expressed. I have sensed this from so many people the same age. Me too, whenever I find myself single again. 

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:28 am

rasāsvāda wrote:
OnePlus5t wrote:I once knew a TW in a forum in the net. I started flirting with her because she started flirting with me. Then she got upset because I was flirting with her and she indicated such to me. I felt broken but still left without a whimper because although it was true that I was flirting with her, it was not true that I had started it. But I still left because I realized that there was no resolution to the infinite regress of the argument she had initiated. Then I died. Lifetimes later, I visited net to revive old memories. I saw that she was flirting online with another guy in the same forum. I started scratching my head. What was happening? When and where had I started assuming that I had robbed her of a license to flirt with anyone on the net? Why was I upset?

yaar everytime i write a big post, i realize you have posted something else. 

"I once knew a TW in a forum in the net."


TW? When did all this happen?
rofl

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:35 am

OnePlus5t wrote:One reason the idea of love on Internet fascinates me is because the net is probably the only place where you can have pure, abstract love. You can have pure love in reality too but in reality, it might get corrupted with the nonsense of reality faster. 

I remember I had an idea long ago. An american man and a Japanese woman would play the roles of perfect lovers via entirely chat sessions that would be accessible to the public. Evidently, the two would have to be great writers of fiction to convince the public that it was real. The last session, after many months, I imagined, would end like this:

Rob: I can't do this anymore Ichiko. I can't fool myself.
Ichiko: It is the last day Rob. We are almost near the end.
Rob: You don't understand Ichiko. I am going insane here. I haven't slept in a week. I can't stop thinking of you. 
Ichiko: You can. There is no love. You know that better than me. 
Rob: Do you love me?
Ichiko: No.
Rob: Don't lie. Tell me honestly. 
Ichiko: I don't Rob.
Rob: You are writing fiction! I swear I am going to come to Tokyo and find you and kill you!
Ichiko: I will wait for you.

lol... I have often been accused that I don't understand pure, abstract love. Maybe some day I will...

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:39 am

What is it about love and sex that fascinates even homosexual men (to exaggerate). Milan Kundera is in his 80s or 90s and he wrote a novel a few years back. It had anecdotes and ruminations about sex and women. So say the critics. He, they say, hasn't grown up.

But that is not possible. It is not possible that he did not grow up. I am sure he stopped thinking of sex and women and love after his first few novels because no intelligent writer in the universe likes to repeat the motifs in his fiction. After his first novels, he withdrew from love and sex and started thinking about all other things. It took him thirty years to realize that every other thing led to sex, women and love. This was an uncanny discovery. He only wanted to tell this to the public when he wrote his last novel. Critics do not grow up.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:45 am

God keeps incarnating as a human to explain the truth to us for he is not convinced that he cannot do it. He is yet to succeed.


Last edited by OnePlus5t on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:48 am

rasāsvāda wrote:"But how did I live such a practical life despite being such a hopeless dreamer? To imagine a true love somewhere up in the clouds with a woman... do I not know that after 51 years, I should not dream, for it has been said, over and over...

...that there is no platonic heaven. One should concern oneself only with irregular shapes. 

When will I learn? Will I dream on my deathbed too? "


Honestly expressed. I have sensed this from so many people the same age. Me too, whenever I find myself single again. 

Yes. We probably can't stop being this way. Old people do not look as old as they used to when I was a kid. In fact, they look young.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:56 am

TW, are we going to die ultimately?

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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:05 am

OnePlus5t wrote:TW, are we going to die ultimately?
 I am scared to answer this question now lol. Coz I will think about death as it happens on earth and say yes. While you have most likely thought of parallel universe or time travel or souls and spirits and will confuse the heck out of me in your next post lol.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:20 am

rofl

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:52 am

Holi with the missus. Apologies for the lungi and nudity.


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Re: TW

Post by rasāsvāda on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:21 am

happy holi to both of you and family... i see you have also started sporting a mustache (or did you always keep one? Forgetting... )

what was the FOODS!

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:40 am

I started sporting a mooch last year. The more I resist, the more I turn into what my father used to be. 

We did not cook any fancy stuff this year. Ganpath is away (but he is still with us). Siddharth was out with his friends and cousins and we were alone. I don't think it is a coincidence that  I lost interest in food after leaving this place. 

Gautam should be wrapping up college next year. He will be going to New Hampshire this summer to participate in a formula car competition on behalf of his college. Sid flies in Bhubaneswar now -- he got his ppl transferred to dgca. I am pretty much redundant in the business now -- thanks to Sid -- and spend most of my time thinking about philosophy and in the school I mentioned earlier.

Gautam and the car they designed:



Gautam won't join business yet. He wants to spend a couple of years in auto industry.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:50 am

I used to feel proud of my kids. But now I can't bring myself to take credit for being their father. Because...

...things are true for no reason. They are true by accident. And that is why we can never prove what is going on and we can never know what is going on.

Welcome to the Wonderland of Alice. 

This universe makes me sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad. I don't even want to write anything. I only want to cry.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:15 pm

I never loved the universe. I am sure I am not the only one. One can only hope that our kids love it as much as we probably should have. There is always a reason for doing exactly what evolution wants us to do, even if it is something we do not want to do. 

There is always a reason. 
There is always a platonic form. 
You just have to look for it. If you don't find it, look the other way. It will be there.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:08 pm

rasāsvāda wrote:lol the way you write about physics is very different from how i quote it. 

The other day I was vacuuming in son's room while he was playing on his computer. I was done with the floor and had taken the handle out to do the corners. At one point while moving the machine, i sat on his bed and my hand moved. And suddenly there was a big sucking noise from the machine, and a big gasp from son. I turned off the vacuum cleaner and was like - what did i suck in? He's like - 'you took my whole arm sleeve!!!!' Arm sleeve is something usually basketball players wear. And I was like - oops, and he was like - take it OUT! And i was like - there is no way I am going to open the dust container with my allergies, it will put me out for days. 

But soon i realized the sleeve never made it to the container. It was too big to go all the way through the nearly-3-feet handle, and at one point was stuck. Son and I took turns looking into the black handle trying to spot the black sleeve, and realized it's closer to one end. From his desk, I picked out a pencil and began trying to get to it. Soon we were taking turns to use two pencils together to grip it and pull it out, but it was stuck badly. So now in one of those desperate idiotic moments, i pushed it down with the pencil, hoping it will loosen it a bit and make it drop out the other end. All it did was make it go further in, and now we couldn't even try getting it out with pencils. Son was still like - 'get it OUT! I don't care how ripped it is but get it out'. I could have ignored him, but I also wanted to get it out. Besides, i was in vacuum cleaning mode, and this thing had made it useless, so i had nothing else to do anyway. 

At this point i felt a little bit of claustrophobic panic attack. Anything stuck in narrow spaces does that to me. But I was able to take deep breaths out of that feeling. I went to XH's room and took one of his metal hangers out (He's the only one who gets laundry done - and he was later pissed at how i had carelessly "thrown" his pants on his bed Rolling Eyes - i had laid them neatly there, coz i know how anal he is about his ironed clothes). 

I stretched open the hanger and began pushing the sleeve down the pipe. After a couple of minutes, the hanger was completely in the pipe, but no sign of the sleeve at the other end. Son has longer fingers than mine, and it was within his reach. he was able to touch the sleeve but not well enough to grip it. So now, at the other end, I bent the hanger's end to make it blunt, then I took the pencil again and rested its end on the hanger, then found another bigger object to hit on the pencil, to create that final force in a straight line. All the while i was doing this, i was imagining that somehow my hand will slip and the pencil will poke my eye. So I kept looking away. Eventually the sleeve slipped down enough to have son reach it and pull it out. 

WHEW. THIS IS PHYSICS, I exclaimed. Son nodded. Then he went back to his game, and I went back to vacuuming.

I totally missed this post! Don't know how. 

Your writing has improved for I quite enjoyed the story and the style. Funny how American kids can get so demanding and domineering. I think you have been put in place.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:07 pm

It was six months ago that i was trying to apologize for announcing my arrival in a forum, in the net, on literature about and from South Asia. In response to my introductory post, I  received the most humbling welcome from the most unexpected of quarters... a fossilized scholar. An academic, who, I imagined in my mind, had never stepped out of her armchair. She said -


Life in half way decent health is a gift, RK; don't underestimate its worth. And its fiction (and poetry) that remind(s) one that not a single problem one has is unique - which is bad for the ego but good for loneliness. And then laughing aloud at 'All About Hatterr' takes care of the knock to the ego.

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:52 pm

[Hawking] said that a lot of what we believe is derived from a human-centric perspective, which might limit the scope of human knowledge of the world.


http://indianexpress.com/article/technology/science/nothing-existed-before-big-bang-stephen-hawking-5088358/

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Re: TW

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:41 am

The disappointing thing I discovered, in this journey, was that no human experience was any less enriching than mine. This was a startling discovery that brought great humility in me. But not for long for I realized that if I got rid of hubris then I also got rid of a clear vision to perceive the world with.

Almost all the discoveries that I made came with disappointment. That itself was a discovery for I learnt that my essential nature was dark and full of despair, and that my nature converted even bright things, or even things that had no hue, into dark things (though not always, of course, for I *have* lived a productive life). 

I'll write more in a while.

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