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Shiva and Kaali

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:46 am

Shiva and Kaali Tumblr_n6sd67V4gf1rayo6oo1_1280


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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:56 am

Shiva and Kaali Kaali

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:57 am

Can someone tell me why Kaali's tongue is protruding from her mouth in the pictures above?

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:28 pm

Kali represents the power behind the dissolution of the universe, end of a kalpa, in which everything ends and a new cycle begins. In the picture above, she tramples on Shiva. There are stories about this but my own thinking is that it is a representation of everything including the custodian of "sookshmasareeras" dissolving at the time of "pralaya". Even Shiva depends on her "kripa" for ending his role! In Sankara's Annapoornaashtakam, he begs her to grant him a release from bondage; only she can lift the screen of Maya for anyone to attain mukti.

In Devi mahaatmyam, the reason given for her tongue protruding out is - she drinks the blood of a demon (forgot his name) whose blood creates other demons; hence, she wipes out all blood coming out of him with her tongue. This story is for bhaiyyas who can't go beyond legends and stories.

Not all Kalis have their tongues protruding out. Bhadrakali has her tongue in her mouth.

There is no mention of Kali in proper Veda (except in Atharva - associated with some tantric rituals). One of the tongues of Agni is called Kali. But, I don't think that refers to the Kali aspect of Parvati.

It is interesting that Kali is worshiped in Bengal. In ancient Indian stories, Bengal was not a prominent place (like AP wasn't).

In modern India, Kali will demolish sikularism, corrupt DKheads, CONmen and the like.
BJP fellows must be keeping Bhadrakali in their homes (in that mode, she protects the family but eliminates enemies).

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:37 pm

Thanks Vakavaka. This is a fascinating story about Kaali:

http://polymer.bu.edu/~scala/franci.html

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:47 pm

In Warangal (Telangana), Kakatiyas built a temple for Bhadrakali. It is a beautiful temple and she looks so benevolent. She was their family deity. If you get a chance, visit Warangal. Kakatiyas were a great empire in their days. You will also see how monomaniacs destroyed their magnificent buildings (quite similar to what they did in Hampi). Perhaps, that will put you in a realistic mode when it comes to your farcical H-M synthesis.

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:51 pm

Thanks VP. I will try to visit the Bhadrakali temple in Warangal but isn't Warangal in Naxalite area? I have no desire to get abducted by Naxalites. Or, is that why you are urging me to go to Warangal?

Meanwhile I tried googling for Bhadrakali and found this:

Shiva and Kaali Bhadrakali


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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:54 pm

I bet no other "religion" has such interesting stories.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:17 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:I bet no other "religion" has such interesting stories.
Nothing beats Hinduism when it comes to metaphoric expressions. It is a sign of a sophisticated culture.

Joseph Campbell, an expert on metaphors, suggests that societies successfully use metaphors when they become mature. Quite complex ideas can be expressed metaphorically in such cultures and the common man living those cultures can decipher them much better than those in primitive cultures. Active societies can create and live with diverse metaphors. When societies are unable to create metaphors, they are either dying or stagnant.

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Post by smArtha Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:59 pm

Rashmun wrote:Thanks Vakavaka. This is a fascinating story about Kaali:

http://polymer.bu.edu/~scala/franci.html

This story is an exaggeration/distortion of the actual one in Devi Mahatmyam aka Durga Saptasati aka Chandi Path. Saptashati is not merely an account of the exploits of Durgaa and her slaying of demons Mahisha, Chanda, Munda, Raktabeeja, Shumbha, Nishumbha etc. Devi Mahatmyam looks like standard God-Evil stories but the deeper we go the more we can understand and appreciate the lessons in the stories. 

Take Raktabeeja's slaying above. Raktabeeja is a demon with a special ability. If a drop of blood falls from 
his body on the ground, another demon will be born from it and will be of the same size, age and strength 
as the original Raktabeeja even at birth. As Vaishnavi, Maaheswari, Aindri etc were hurting Raktabeeja in 
the fight, more and more demons were being born and all the gods were scared. Then Chandikaa told 
Kaali to expand her face and eat all the demons as they are born. Chandika goes around the war ground 
eating all the demons as they are born and eventually Raktabeeja runs out of blood. This looks like a nice story. But, is there is a deeper meaning in it that helps you in self-realization? Why was Kaali the chosen one and not Vaishnavi or Naarasimhi or Aindri? 

The word rakta means blood. Another meaning is "desire/passion". The word comes from the root ranj/rang, which means "to color". Desire/passion/attachment colors and conditions the mind. Beeja means seed. 
Raktabeeja means "the seed of desire". Raktabeeja fighting with gods symbolizes desires taking the better 
of our good judgment and good qualities. Each human being is a microcosm of the macrocosm that the 
universe is. When we are overcome by desires and do bad deeds, the Raktabeeja within us is 
defeating the gods within us. The thing is that desires are difficult to get rid of. You get rid of one desire and another desire is born. That is what Raktabeeja's special ability means. The "seed of desires" (i.e. basic attachment that is the nature of mind) within us will keep producing more and more desires. It is very resourceful. 

Then, why Kaali to destroy Him? 
In astrology, we associate Mahaakaala and Mahaakaali with Saturn. Kaali shows detachment and 
vairaagya. She wears a garland of skulls, symbolizing that there is an endless cycle (garland) of births a 
material form (skull) goes thru. The way Kaali shows to overcome the cycle is vairaagya and 
detachment. She shows meaningful and highest level of vairaagya that comes with a deep understanding 
of the cycle of material forms.

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:12 pm

Thanks Smartha. I have another interpretation of the story to offer. This is with respect to why Kali's tongue is protruding. After killing Raktabija Kaali became wild and started dancing in an exhilarated and crazy manner much like the Tandava dance of Shiva. The gods approached shiva since the whole earth ( universe?) was shaking but he laughed them away since he was admiring Kali's dance. It was only when he himself felt the full impact of her dance that he realized there was indeed serious trouble afoot.

So as to calm Kaali down he threw himself before her feet and when she stomped on his prostate body her tongue came out out of embarrassment and shame and she immediately calmed down.

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:21 pm

Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.
Aren't you lucky that this freedom is allowed for kafirs?  Just imagine you shooting your mouth and expressing views on the 7th century book, Aurangazeb doing a pooja to a lingam and H-M synthesis, etc., in the land of the pure - S Arabia. Even Naxalites would look like angels in front of those pieceful guys!

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:22 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.
Aren't you lucky that this freedom is allowed for kafirs?  Just imagine you shooting your mouth and expressing views on the 7th century book, Aurangazeb doing a pooja to a lingam and H-M synthesis, etc., in the land of the pure - S Arabia. Even Naxalites would look like angels in front of those pieceful guys!

Similar freedom is also allowed in Turkey which is also a Muslim country. This shows that it is possible to be a Muslim and also be liberal at the same time.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.
Aren't you lucky that this freedom is allowed for kafirs?  Just imagine you shooting your mouth and expressing views on the 7th century book, Aurangazeb doing a pooja to a lingam and H-M synthesis, etc., in the land of the pure - S Arabia. Even Naxalites would look like angels in front of those pieceful guys!

Similar freedom is also allowed in Turkey which is also a Muslim country. This shows that it is possible to be a Muslim and also be liberal at the same time.
That is because a dilution of the Semitic hold is taking place there. Read the history of the New England area and see how Christianity used to be just 100 years ago. Just as Christianity has become more tolerant and mild, iSlam will do the same with enlightenment. Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims in the world are still affiliated to the 7th century thinking. Actually, when Semitic faiths become mild, their core religion is dying!  That is the power of Pagan culture, logic and science. Take a look at modern Jews - they are becoming quite un-Semitic.

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Post by smArtha Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:Thanks Smartha. I have another interpretation of the story to offer. This is with respect to why Kali's tongue is protruding. After killing Raktabija Kaali became wild and started dancing in an exhilarated and crazy manner much like the Tandava dance of Shiva. The gods approached shiva since the whole earth ( universe?) was shaking but he laughed them away since he was admiring Kali's dance. It was only when he himself felt the full impact of her dance that he realized there was indeed serious trouble afoot.

So as to calm Kaali down he threw himself before her feet and when she stomped on his prostate body her tongue came out out of embarrassment and shame and she immediately calmed down.

Yeah something similar is what was given in that url you had quoted. And this is how the story as a story kind reading/understanding goes.

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Post by smArtha Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.

Actually the interpretation I had given of 'rakta' as desire and 'beeja' as seed and 'seed of desire' causing endless desires to manifest even if one is addressed is more realistic than the story which talks about a mythical fierce divine form gobbling up another mythical self multiplying demon. I'm not claiming which is closer to the Truth but just that the interpretation I mentioned is both realistic and suitable towards self-inquiry and transformation.

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Post by Guest Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:49 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Personally I prefer realistic interpretations of hindu mythological stories. Once you start giving philosophical interpretations to hindu mythological stories then the fun element disappears and they start becoming weary.

If I want to study Vedanta philosophy I will study Vedanta directly and not seek Vedantic knowledge in Hindu mythology.

I read hindu mythological stories for aesthetic pleasure and entertainment and even education but such education has to be realistic ( for instance stories depicting resourcefulness) and not Vedantic.

However it is true that hindu mythological stories can be interpreted in different ways and to each his or her own.

Actually the interpretation I had given of 'rakta' as desire and 'beeja' as seed and 'seed of desire' causing endless desires to manifest even if one is addressed is more realistic than the story which talks about a mythical fierce divine form gobbling up another mythical self multiplying demon. I'm not claiming which is closer to the Truth but just that the interpretation I mentioned is both realistic and suitable towards self-inquiry and transformation.

There is a genre of fiction called sword and sorcery. One of the great writers of this field was this man:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Howard

I interpret all the Puranic stories as belonging to this genre of fiction. In this kind of fiction the action is taking place not in this world but in an imaginary world which is more colorful than the present world. In this imaginary world there exist people with magical powers which they have acquired through various ways and there exist demonic people and "good" people. One should use the word "good" with care because even the heroes in these stories may do thinks which may not be noble from the conventional standpoint. This is similar to how Lord Krishna tricks and fools various people in the Mahabharata through which he manages to ensure their death. Consider this story for instance:

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"Siva once teased Parvati about her dark skin, and Parvati resolved to perform tapas to obtain a golden skin....Meanwhile, Adi, the son of the demon Andhaka, learned that Parvati had gone to do tapas, and he resolved to conquer all the gods, for he remembered his father's death. Adi did tapas and won from Brahma the boon that he would only die when he had transformed himself twice. Then he came to Siva's door and saw Viraka there, and to delude him he changed himself into a serpent, forgetting the prediction about the manner of his death. Once inside, he took the form of Parvati in order to deceive Siva, and he placed teeth as sharp as thunderbolts inside her vagina, for he was determined to kill Siva. When Siva saw him he embraced him, thinking him to be Parvati, and Adi said, 'I went to do tapas in order to be dear to you and lovely, but I found no pleasure there and so I have returned to you.' When Siva heard this he was suspicious, for he knew that Parvati would not have returned without completing her vow, and he looked closely for signs by which to recognize her. When he saw that the illusory Parvati did not have the mark of the lotus on the left side of her body, as the true Parvati did, he recognized the magic form of the demon, and he placed a thunderbolt in his own phallus and wounded the demon with it, killing him. ..." -- Matsya Purana 155:1-34, 156:1-40, 157:1-24, 158:1-27; Padma Purana 5:41:1-118; Skanda Purana 1:2:27:58-84; 1:2:28:1-14; 1:2:29:1-81.

Another version:

"Siva embraced his 'wife' [Adi in disguise] joyously, for he was full of longing. He made love to her at first artificially and externally, and then he entered her. Then he discovered a marvellous golden linga inside her, with a trident in the middle. Although he was a little worried, Siva was so tortured by desire that he continued to make love to her. But then the womb of the demon turned to adamantine, and the demon in the form of a woman made a staff and a cudgel in order to cut off Siva's linga. Siva perceived this magic and created tridents and other weapons and emitted them from the tip of his linga, and when Siva had finished making love to the demon, the demon gave up his female form and died." -- Siva Purana, Dharmasamhita 10:49-55.


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How would you interpret the above story from a Vedantic standpoint? Even if u manage to do so I would submit that you would end up squeezing all the fun out of the story.


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Post by harharmahadev Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:45 pm

O Maha Kali!! She is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted God of all.  Look at the picture - she is holding a severed head and collecting the blood in a cup.  Obviously, her tongue is red because she is drinking it and loving it.  I've seen images of Kali drinking semen from a severed penis; and cum was dribbling down the chin.

Kali embodies a very powerful philosophy.

Truth is a duality.  Everything in nature exists as duality.  There is a positive AND a negative.  There is life AND death, night AND day, light AND darkness.  Religion claims to be the pursuit of truth, but it seldom is.  Religion exists as a singularity.  It takes a subset of the truth and conveniently categorizes it as "good" and the rest of it becomes "evil".  "Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya!"  (I will lead you from darkness to light) they say.  Why?  Why is darkness evil?  Why does one need to be led out of darkness and into light? In order to comprehend the truth, one needs to cherish darkness with the same degree of passion as light. 

Kali is the manifestation of Tantra.  Tantra is not some evil practice or ritual.  Tantra means technique; a technique to pursue truth.  In order to pursue truth, one needs to comprehend truth as a pair of opposites without shrouding the mind with preset religious mores.  Tantra is an individual pursuit.  There are no priest or mullah dictating what the truth is and the path to attain the truth.

A blind man goes to a brahmin or mullah and asks, "what does a flower looks like?".  They will explain in excruciating detail the flower's beauty.  They will sing praises of everything that is pretty and deride everything they find filthy. 

If the man went to a tantric and asked him, "what does a flower look like?" the tantric will think this - why he is asking me this question?  He must be blind! So he will examine his eyes, experiment with techniques to restore eyesight and will operate on his eyes.  He will not answer his question, but will work to give him back his eyesight.  The tantric knows that once he has his vision, he will have his answer.   

If you cringe at the sight of Kali's "evil" form, it shows your inability to comprehend truth as a duality.  If you feel a compelling urge to interpret the images as some mystical but benign metaphors, they you are completely missing the point.  Kali's images are meant to be gory and loathsome.

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Post by Hellsangel Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:15 pm

O Fox of Wall St., which Kali do you worship?
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Post by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:03 pm

bhadrakali depiction is a little anatomically inaccurate. she has puffy nipple on the right side where as to the left is your standard issue semi hard one.

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