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Girl Punished for Sporting a Tilak for her birthday

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MaxEntropy_Man
Seva Lamberdar
truthbetold
Merlot Daruwala
Hellsangel
seven
southindian
Propagandhi711
Marathadi-Saamiyaar
rawemotions
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Post by rawemotions Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:13 pm

http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=19455&SKIN=C

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Post by confuzzled dude Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:38 pm

What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

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Post by rawemotions Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:08 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.
http://www.ndtv.com/telangana-news/11-year-old-girl-punished-in-school-for-wearing-tilak-on-her-birthday-743069

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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:51 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Your statement is like "What a load of bull. There are hundreds of huns who teach in convents, and they were never raped."

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Post by Merlot Daruwala Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:05 am

confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Shush man. Don't deny the chaddis their victimhood. Without their daily dose of limpwristed breastbeating, these ladies won't get any sleep and will then become all cranky.
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Post by Propagandhi711 Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:00 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Shush man. Don't deny the chaddis their victimhood. Without their daily dose of limpwristed breastbeating, these ladies won't get any sleep and will then become all cranky.

did you go to the NDTV link posted before your standard catchphrasey rant?

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Post by Propagandhi711 Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:04 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Your statement is like "What a load of bull. There are hundreds of huns who teach in convents, and they were never raped."

are you saying comrade is a convert?

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:23 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.
Ask your relatives, who attended these and similar other schools, whether they were taught in the moral class in the school by the teacher(s) that brahmins in the past had been exploiting other castes people.
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Post by southindian Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:15 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Shush man. Don't deny the chaddis their victimhood. Without their daily dose of limpwristed breastbeating, these ladies won't get any sleep and will then become all cranky.
Dude, What a chaddiless naked idiot you are. Read the story below before telling everyone you are a moron.


Secunderabad:  An 11-year-old girl in Telangana was allegedly made to stand for two hours outside her school principal's room as punishment for wearing a "tilak" on her birthday.

The child, a student of St Ann School in Tarnaka area of Secunderabad was so badly affected by the incident that she refused to go to school for a few days, her parents have complained to the state human rights commission.
 
The girl was allegedly ordered to stand outside principal Sally Joseph's room on Tuesday and her mother was summoned. The principal allegedly berated the child for wearing a "tilak" on her forehead and hairpins to school. Ms Joseph allegedly refused to listen to the mother's explanation that the child had gone to a temple for her birthday and that is why a holy mark was smeared on her forehead.
 
"The headmistress did not listen to my wife and daughter and tried to issue a transfer certificate to my daughter," the father said in his letter to the rights body. He alleged that the principal said, "She must remember this on every birthday."
 
The state education department has been asked by the rights body for a report by April 9.
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Post by truthbetold Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:26 am

Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.

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Post by southindian Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:11 pm

Here's what someone could do in that school to send a message.

Send kids to school wearing a cross in necklace and ask kids to stand outside class with a sign saying "Sorry, I'll never wear a cross when coming to school".
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:46 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.
Ask your relatives, who attended these and similar other schools, whether they were taught in the moral class in the school by the teacher(s) that brahmins in the past had been exploiting other castes people.
My experience with the "moral" class was not positive. The "father" was inappropriately quoting verses from Hindu scriptures, twisting and giving a negative meaning. I gave the proper meaning and questioned his explanations. I was fined and a letter was sent to my father about my "disruptive behavior" in the class.

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Post by swapna Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:52 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Your statement is like "What a load of bull. There are hundreds of huns who teach in convents, and they were never raped."

sam, yaar, huns don't teach in convents, certainly not in india. here's some information for you on the huns:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

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Post by confuzzled dude Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:36 pm

truthbetold wrote:Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.
They do expect their students to adhere to their dress code policies. Hindu girls form majority of their student populations, besides these are reputed institutions with 100+ years of history and would not have survived this long if they were not treating them fairly.

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Post by Hellsangel Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:10 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.
They do expect their students to adhere to their dress code policies. Hindu girls form majority of their student populations, besides these are reputed institutions with 100+ years of history and would not have survived this long if they were not treating them fairly.
This is just a conspiracy to tarnish the reputed institutions with 100+ years of history, isn't it, Comrade?
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Post by truthbetold Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:27 pm

Cd
These institutions have superior educational reputation. So they can push the envelope little further. Most of the leaders of these institutions are smart and sensible people. But occasionally you get a wingnut who wants to push religious agenda. That is what happened at Stanley in 1990. The issue was in newspapers for few months before better sense prevailed and policy was withdrawn.

The moral of the story is that wingnuts exist in all religions.

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Post by seven Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:29 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.
They do expect their students to adhere to their dress code policies. Hindu girls form majority of their student populations, besides these are reputed institutions with 100+ years of history and would not have survived this long if they were not treating them fairly.

Why do you feel the need to defend them? It may not have happened in 100 years n when your cousins were studying there. But it happen with this little girl.
By your logic, India must be treating minority (Muslims) fairly because they not only survived but also grew in number. But you are convinced India is partial n unfair to them.

Not that I have not seen a hypocrit before. No offense.

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Post by confuzzled dude Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:51 pm

seven wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.
They do expect their students to adhere to their dress code policies. Hindu girls form majority of their student populations, besides these are reputed institutions with 100+ years of history and would not have survived this long if they were not treating them fairly.

Why do you feel the need to defend them? It may not have happened in 100 years n when your cousins were studying there. But it happen with this little girl.
By your logic, India must be treating minority (Muslims) fairly because they not only survived but also grew in number. But you are convinced India is partial n unfair to them.  

Not that I have not seen a hypocrit before. No offense.
So, one-off incident makes it a rule, now? I was defending them because I don't trust these wing-nut propagandist media outlets like haindavakeralam.

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Post by confuzzled dude Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:53 pm

truthbetold wrote:Cd
These institutions have superior educational reputation. So they can push the envelope little further. Most of the leaders of these institutions are smart and sensible people. But occasionally you get a wingnut who wants to push religious agenda. That is what happened at Stanley in 1990. The issue was in newspapers for few months before better sense prevailed and policy was withdrawn.

The moral of the story is that wingnuts exist in all religions.
There never was any doubt, was there?

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Post by Hellsangel Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:40 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
seven wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Cd
There was a big incident at Stanley girls high school in Hyderabad in 90s about bottu(tilak).  It is not an uncommon occurrence. In fact it is a deliberate act of pushing culture vs gift of education.
They do expect their students to adhere to their dress code policies. Hindu girls form majority of their student populations, besides these are reputed institutions with 100+ years of history and would not have survived this long if they were not treating them fairly.

Why do you feel the need to defend them? It may not have happened in 100 years n when your cousins were studying there. But it happen with this little girl.
By your logic, India must be treating minority (Muslims) fairly because they not only survived but also grew in number. But you are convinced India is partial n unfair to them.  

Not that I have not seen a hypocrit before. No offense.
So, one-off incident makes it a rule, now? I was defending them because I don't trust these wing-nut propagandist media outlets like haindavakeralam.
You only trust the left-wing-nut publications, Comrade?
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Post by Guest Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:54 pm

truthbetold wrote:Cd
These institutions have superior educational reputation. So they can push the envelope little further. Most of the leaders of these institutions are smart and sensible people. But occasionally you get a wingnut who wants to push religious agenda. That is what happened at Stanley in 1990. The issue was in newspapers for few months before better sense prevailed and policy was withdrawn.

The moral of the story is that wingnuts exist in all religions.
What's the story?

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:57 pm

i am familiar with st.anns in maredpally. in the years that i knew st.anns, i don't remember such controversies. this must be something new.
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Post by Guest Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:09 pm

Meanwhile in the other St. Ann's in Hyderabad:







and:



http://ezhila.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog-post_1991.html

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:13 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.
Ask your relatives, who attended these and similar other schools, whether they were taught in the moral class in the school by the teacher(s) that brahmins in the past had been exploiting other castes people.
My experience with the "moral" class was not positive. The "father" was inappropriately quoting verses from Hindu scriptures, twisting and giving a negative meaning. I gave the proper meaning and questioned his explanations. I was fined and a letter was sent to my father about my "disruptive behavior" in the class.
Even though I did not attend the English or Convent school myself, I heard about the similar things taught to students in Convent schools in H.P., i.e. "Brahmins exploited other castes people in the past," (taught in the 'moral' education class in the Convent school) 
Perhaps this was a deliberate and concerted effort by the Convent schools all over the country  to pollute young minds with anti-brahminism and raise doubts about Hinduism, thus setting the stage probably for evangelical conversions later (after these students became adults). 
Such dubious early education in schools also could have resulted in tremendous anti-brahmin feelings and political campaigns later, such as by the DK / DMK parties etc., perhaps because their leaders and guides (including probably Periyar et al.) might have gone to such schools in childhood and learnt all this anti-brahmin propaganda. 
In addition, some Brahmin kids, who attended these schools and heard all the nonsense about their caste being taught in class ("Brahmin exploiting others..."), probably went on to harbor a bitter feeling about their caste (brahmin) and religion (Hinduism)  and thought that it would be better for them to “become” and call themselves atheists.
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Post by Merlot Daruwala Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:51 pm

southindian wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.

Shush man. Don't deny the chaddis their victimhood. Without their daily dose of limpwristed breastbeating, these ladies won't get any sleep and will then become all cranky.
Dude, What a chaddiless naked idiot you are. Read the story below before telling everyone you are a moron.


Secunderabad:  An 11-year-old girl in Telangana was allegedly made to stand for two hours outside her school principal's room as punishment for wearing a "tilak" on her birthday.

The child, a student of St Ann School in Tarnaka area of Secunderabad was so badly affected by the incident that she refused to go to school for a few days, her parents have complained to the state human rights commission.
 
The girl was allegedly ordered to stand outside principal Sally Joseph's room on Tuesday and her mother was summoned. The principal allegedly berated the child for wearing a "tilak" on her forehead and hairpins to school. Ms Joseph allegedly refused to listen to the mother's explanation that the child had gone to a temple for her birthday and that is why a holy mark was smeared on her forehead.
 
"The headmistress did not listen to my wife and daughter and tried to issue a transfer certificate to my daughter," the father said in his letter to the rights body. He alleged that the principal said, "She must remember this on every birthday."
 
The state education department has been asked by the rights body for a report by April 9.

Avivek, only cretin like you would take an angry mother's words at face value. It's logical for her to play the religion card. But your convction that it was only the tilak and not some other transgression of the school's dress code leads me to conclude that chaddis just want an excuse, no matter how flimsy, to limpwristedly breastbeat and lament their victimhood.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:33 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:What a load of bull. Several of my relatives have attended both St. Ann Schools and the college, they never faced such restrictions.
Ask your relatives, who attended these and similar other schools, whether they were taught in the moral class in the school by the teacher(s) that brahmins in the past had been exploiting other castes people.
My experience with the "moral" class was not positive. The "father" was inappropriately quoting verses from Hindu scriptures, twisting and giving a negative meaning. I gave the proper meaning and questioned his explanations. I was fined and a letter was sent to my father about my "disruptive behavior" in the class.
Even though I did not attend the English or Convent school myself, I heard about the similar things taught to students in Convent schools in H.P., i.e. "Brahmins exploited other castes people in the past," (taught in the 'moral' education class in the Convent school) 
Perhaps this was a deliberate and concerted effort by the Convent schools all over the country  to pollute young minds with anti-brahminism and raise doubts about Hinduism, thus setting the stage probably for evangelical conversions later (after these students became adults). 
Such dubious early education in schools also could have resulted in tremendous anti-brahmin feelings and political campaigns later, such as by the DK / DMK parties etc., perhaps because their leaders and guides (including probably Periyar et al.) might have gone to such schools in childhood and learnt all this anti-brahmin propaganda. 
In addition, some Brahmin kids, who attended these schools and heard all the nonsense about their caste being taught in class ("Brahmin exploiting others..."), probably went on to harbor a bitter feeling about their caste (brahmin) and religion (Hinduism)  and thought that it would be better for them to “become” and call themselves atheists.

i love your speculative musings. muse away. ramasamy periyar's life history is easily accessible. i don't remember any christian schools featuring in it. for the most part catholic schools in TN provided a low-cost, reasonable quality education to middle-class hindu boys and girls whose parents couldn't afford expensive private schools. and for the most part, they never indulged in religion pushing. i attended three different catholic schools. i can't remember any explicitly christian activity other than saying the lord's prayer during morning assembly. all my hindu friends left high school without being converted and left with whatever belief system we entered with.
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Ask your relatives, who attended these and similar other schools, whether they were taught in the moral class in the school by the teacher(s) that brahmins in the past had been exploiting other castes people.
My experience with the "moral" class was not positive. The "father" was inappropriately quoting verses from Hindu scriptures, twisting and giving a negative meaning. I gave the proper meaning and questioned his explanations. I was fined and a letter was sent to my father about my "disruptive behavior" in the class.
Even though I did not attend the English or Convent school myself, I heard about the similar things taught to students in Convent schools in H.P., i.e. "Brahmins exploited other castes people in the past," (taught in the 'moral' education class in the Convent school) 
Perhaps this was a deliberate and concerted effort by the Convent schools all over the country  to pollute young minds with anti-brahminism and raise doubts about Hinduism, thus setting the stage probably for evangelical conversions later (after these students became adults). 
Such dubious early education in schools also could have resulted in tremendous anti-brahmin feelings and political campaigns later, such as by the DK / DMK parties etc., perhaps because their leaders and guides (including probably Periyar et al.) might have gone to such schools in childhood and learnt all this anti-brahmin propaganda. 
In addition, some Brahmin kids, who attended these schools and heard all the nonsense about their caste being taught in class ("Brahmin exploiting others..."), probably went on to harbor a bitter feeling about their caste (brahmin) and religion (Hinduism)  and thought that it would be better for them to “become” and call themselves atheists.

i love your speculative musings. muse away. ramasamy periyar's life history is easily accessible. i don't remember any christian schools featuring in it. for the most part catholic schools in TN provided a low-cost, reasonable quality education to middle-class hindu boys and girls whose parents couldn't afford expensive private schools. and for the most part, they never indulged in religion pushing. i attended three different catholic schools. i can't remember any explicitly christian activity other than saying the lord's prayer during morning assembly. all my hindu friends left high school without being converted and left with whatever belief system we entered with.
Why did the DK/DMK (people and leaders) spew so much anti-branmin venom then, in and out of political campaigns?  Btw, are you sure none of the leaders (Periyar, Karunandhi, Annadurai et al.) attended such schools when young? Incidentally, this type of nonsense ("brahmins exploiting others in the past") taught exclusively in a local Convent school (in H.P.) in lower grade (e.g. 5th or 6th) as a part of the "moral" education (?) was by a Keralite nun (teacher), so it very likely had its origins in South India (Kerala and TN etc.). I had never heard my teachers in Govt. schools talking about this type of B.S. in and out of the class.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:23 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Why did the DK/DMK (people and leaders) spew so much anti-branmin venom then, in and out of political campaigns?  Btw, are you sure none of the leaders (Periyar, Karunandhi, Annadurai et al.) attended such schools when young? Incidentally, this type of nonsense ("brahmins exploiting others in the past") taught exclusively in a local Convent school (in H.P.) in lower grade (e.g. 5th or 6th) as a part of the "moral" education (?) was by a Keralite nun (teacher), so it very likely had its origins in South India (Kerala and TN etc.). I had never heard my teachers in Govt. schools talking about this type of B.S. in and out of the class.

i never sat in a class in school, christian or non-denominational, where the teacher spewed anti-brahmin venom. not sure where you are getting this from. to my knowledge none of the three gentlemen you've named attended  christian schools. the anti-brahmin political movement began in TN as a result of historic suppression of "lower" caste hindus by brahmins and other "upper" caste hindus, and christian schools have nothing to do with it. not sure why you are conflating christian schools with the DK movement.  while what you are doing is weird, it is not surprising because you have this habit of spinning theories from nothing, writing about it over and over again until it becomes a fact in your mind. why don't you write a geocities blog about it and post links here.

that brahmins have suppressed others is historical fact and not nonsense. the anti-brahmin movement has no place in contemporary TN, and contemporary brahmins are just political scapegoats for the kazhagams. however, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be clear-eyed about history.
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Post by truthbetold Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:30 pm

Max

+1.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Why did the DK/DMK (people and leaders) spew so much anti-branmin venom then, in and out of political campaigns?  Btw, are you sure none of the leaders (Periyar, Karunandhi, Annadurai et al.) attended such schools when young? Incidentally, this type of nonsense ("brahmins exploiting others in the past") taught exclusively in a local Convent school (in H.P.) in lower grade (e.g. 5th or 6th) as a part of the "moral" education (?) was by a Keralite nun (teacher), so it very likely had its origins in South India (Kerala and TN etc.). I had never heard my teachers in Govt. schools talking about this type of B.S. in and out of the class.

i never sat in a class in school, christian or non-denominational, where the teacher spewed anti-brahmin venom. not sure where you are getting this from. to my knowledge none of the three gentlemen you've named attended  christian schools. the anti-brahmin political movement began in TN as a result of historic suppression of "lower" caste hindus by brahmins and other "upper" caste hindus, and christian schools have nothing to do with it. not sure why you are conflating christian schools with the DK movement.  while what you are doing is weird, it is not surprising because you have this habit of spinning theories from nothing, writing about it over and over again until it becomes a fact in your mind. why don't you write a geocities blog about it and post links here.

that brahmins have suppressed others is historical fact and not nonsense. the anti-brahmin movement has no place in contemporary TN, and contemporary brahmins are just political scapegoats for the kazhagams. however, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be clear-eyed about history.
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:16 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact?

i'll take your question to mean "what evidence do i have of brahmins suppressing non-brahmins?"

i can only speak for TN, a place whose social milieu i am very familiar with. my evidence is based mostly on personal narratives from ancestors who have passed on, personal observations of the practices of tamil brahmins from my grandparents' generation, and reading literary works by reformist poets like subrahmanya bharathi and others from the era immediately preceding independence.

TN was one of the first states where brahminical dominance over state affairs was loosened. i generally dislike the DK movement for all the damage they have wrought in TN, but i list losing the clutches of brahminical dominance and shaking off state-sponsored hindi pushing as two huge wins for the DK movement.  on the downside, they turned a positive social movement into one of brahmin hatred over the years, and systematically denied opportunities to brahmins and other "upper" castes and succeeded in driving them away from the state.

it would be a mistake for you to extrapolate from himachal pradesh to TN.
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:16 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:59 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

I am not extrapolating about the rest of India on this issue on the basis of my experience in H.P.  

Even in the southern states (T.N., Kerala etc.), this type of attitude and misinformation on  brahmins  (“brahmins had suppressed / exploited other castes in the past”) prevailing currently among people (including your family members and elders probably) and politicians (e.g. in DMK / DK) is very likely the result of a long term (more than a century now) misleading education (“moral” education, more precisely) imparted in English / Convent schools. In addition, the media (newspapers etc.) keep on recycling this type of misinformation about Brahmins with the help of Convent / English school educated writers / journalists / reporters. I even heard Rushdie once talking on TV and blaming Brahmins for the ills in society, considering especially that he is not even a Hindu or a south Indian to have himself (or his elders) encountered any bad experiences at the hands of Brahmins. So, guess where he might have picked up that type of nonsense about brahmins? Most likely in his English / Convent school in north India which he probably attended as a young boy long ago.

Note Brahmins as a class never held power, especially the political power as rulers etc. to enable them to suppress / exploit others, over a significant time anywhere in India. So, any generalization about them as Brahmins exploiting / suppressing others in the past (as taught in the Convent school) is incorrect and is not a historical fact.  Moreover, having one or two members from the Brahmin community at the top of power, near the non-brahmin (Kshatriya) ruler, as usually might have been the case long ago, is not sufficient to categorize the entire community of Brahmins as suppressers / exploiters of others, even when things turned out badly in society because the basic ruler (Kshatriya) was bad and he had a few Brahmin advisers and teachers next to him but they ultimately were unable to restrain and keep him in check (from behaving / acting badly).  

Don’t forget the example of Dronacharya (a Brahmin) in the Mahabharata.  He was the teacher / trainer of Kauravas and Pandavas. People mistakenly think that he had all the power to stop Kaurava princes from behaving badly, especially when Duryodhana and his brothers tried to strip Draupadi naked in public.  Unfortunately, people don’t realize that Dronacharya had no such power, to stop the Kaurava princes from acting badly and harassing others. Dronacharya was just lucky to have found a job / employment as a teacher for Kaurava / Pandava princes after much struggle and he could not risk losing it by interfering in Kauravas’ private conduct and affairs. (You can read more on this in Section B in http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-through-the-sands-of-time_465740_blog.)
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:03 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

But any scrutiny by your friend's mother while you ate food in her house, whether you were doing it rightly / correctly, can't be categorized as your suppression / exploitation by her  (a brahmin), or can it?
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:10 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

But any scrutiny my your friend's mother while you ate food in her house, whether you were doing it rightly / correctly, can't be categorized as your suppression / exploitation by her  (a brahmin), or can it?  

I wasn't thinking along those lines. It was good that she followed her tradition. To presume that I didn't know my tradition was wrong on her part. I could have explained the bases for the tradition to her but I didn't. I was just amused by her presumption. I followed my tradition and quietly said in my head, "annadaata sukheebhav", thinking of her as a nourishing mother.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:16 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

I am not extrapolating about the rest of India on this issue on the basis of my experience in H.P.  

Even in the southern states (T.N., Kerala etc.), this type of attitude and misinformation on  brahmins  (“brahmins had suppressed / exploited other castes in the past”) prevailing currently among people (including your family members and elders probably) and politicians (e.g. in DMK / DK) is very likely the result of a long term (more than a century now) misleading education (“moral” education, more precisely) imparted in English / Convent schools. In addition, the media (newspapers etc.) keep on recycling this type of misinformation about Brahmins with the help of Convent / English school educated writers / journalists / reporters. I even heard Rushdie once talking on TV and blaming Brahmins for the ills in society, considering especially that he is not even a Hindu or a south Indian to have himself (or his elders) encountered any bad experiences at the hands of Brahmins. So, guess where he might have picked up that type of nonsense about brahmins? Most likely in his English / Convent school in north India which he probably attended as a young boy long ago.

Note Brahmins as a class never held power, especially the political power as rulers etc. to enable them to suppress / exploit others, over a significant time anywhere in India. So, any generalization about them as Brahmins exploiting / suppressing others in the past (as taught in the Convent school) is incorrect and is not a historical fact.  Moreover, having one or two members from the Brahmin community at the top of power, near the non-brahmin (Kshatriya) ruler, as usually might have been the case long ago, is not sufficient to categorize the entire community of Brahmins as suppressers / exploiters of others, even when things turned out badly in society because the basic ruler (Kshatriya) was bad and he had a few Brahmin advisers and teachers next to him but they ultimately were unable to restrain and keep him in check (from behaving / acting badly).  

Don’t forget the example of Dronacharya (a Brahmin) in the Mahabharata.  He was the teacher / trainer of Kauravas and Pandavas. People mistakenly think that he had all the power to stop Kaurava princes from behaving badly, especially when Duryodhana and his brothers tried to strip Draupadi naked in public.  Unfortunately, people don’t realize that Dronacharya had no such power, to stop the Kaurava princes from acting badly and harassing others. Dronacharya was just lucky to have found a job / employment as a teacher for Kaurava / Pandava princes after much struggle and he could not risk losing it by interfering in Kauravas’ private conduct and affairs. (You can read more on this in Section B in http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-through-the-sands-of-time_465740_blog.)
The above was intended as a response to Max's earlier comment (<<<< i'll take your question to mean "what evidence do i have of brahmins suppressing non-brahmins?"  --- i can only speak for TN, a place whose social milieu i am very familiar with. my evidence is based mostly on personal narratives from ancestors who have passed on, personal observations of the practices of tamil brahmins from my grandparents' generation, and reading literary works by reformist poets like subrahmanya bharathi and others from the era immediately preceding independence. ---TN was one of the first states where brahminical dominance over state affairs was loosened. i generally dislike the DK movement for all the damage they have wrought in TN, but i list losing the clutches of brahminical dominance and shaking off state-sponsored hindi pushing as two huge wins for the DK movement.  on the downside, they turned a positive social movement into one of brahmin hatred over the years, and systematically denied opportunities to brahmins and other "upper" castes and succeeded in driving them away from the state. --- it would be a mistake for you to extrapolate from himachal pradesh to TN. >>>> ) 
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Post by confuzzled dude Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:15 am

Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:00 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
So, is KCR ("dora") punishing them and pulling the average Telanganite out of bondage?  When is he creating jobs for all those suckers who helped him in splitting the state?

Speaking of karanams, unlike in TN, social reformers in AP exposed them. In Kanyasulkam, Ramappapantulu was portrayed appropriately. In Telangana, however, the feudal system was (is?) more prevalent (as in Bengal a long time ago).

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Post by swapna Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:22 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

what is "the traditional way of eating," other than using one's fingers?

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:26 pm

swapna wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

what is "the traditional way of eating," other than using one's fingers?
There is no point in explaining it to you. Consider yourself lucky that your fingers and mouth do all the thinking. :-)

(They have rituals to prepare themselves for the meal; recite some verses that suggest that the food is God and the one eating is God, etc., they don't talk when they eat, they have another ritual after completing the meal and they don't get up until the elderly complete their meal......).


Last edited by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:32 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
swapna wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

what is "the traditional way of eating," other than using one's fingers?
There is no point in explaining it to you. Consider yourself lucky that your fingers and mouth do all the thinking. :-)

Being an Advaitin, it is likely that Vakavaka worships (offers prayers to) food before he consumes it. After all everything is Brahman(God) according to Advaita, including food.

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Post by swapna Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:45 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
swapna wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

what is "the traditional way of eating," other than using one's fingers?
There is no point in explaining it to you. Consider yourself lucky that your fingers and mouth do all the thinking. :-)

Being an Advaitin, it is likely that Vakavaka worships (offers prayers to) food before he consumes it. After all everything is Brahman(God) according to Advaita, including food.

thanks for the information, rashmun.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:32 pm

swapna wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
What history and Brahmins suppressing non-Brahmins as a historical fact? More than 90% of my teachers in Govt. schools in H.P. were non-Brahmins (form farming castes etc.). If there was a history of Brahmins exploiting / suppressing non-Brahmins in the past, I am sure some of them (at least one or two) would have talked about it in and out of class, but that never happened.  The first time I learnt / heard about it in our area, i.e. "Brahmins had exploited other castes people in the past", was when a young girl (in grade 6 or so) returned home from her Convent school and talked about the lesson on "moral" education that day by a Keralite nun (teacher).

Remember that in TN, you have Iyers, Iyengars and DKheads who entertain everyone..........

When I lived in India, I went on a SI tour with an Iyengar friend of mine. His grand-father was the main priest of a very famous Vaishnavite temple. His father and mother lived in Madras. When my friend and I visited his parents' house, his mother and father were keeping an eye on me. When his mother served food, she was checking to see if I knew the traditional way of eating. I ended up following all the rituals there are in my family (we are not Vaishnavites). They didn't say anything to me and I didn't let them know that I detected their scrutiny. The food was good! :-)

what is "the traditional way of eating," other than using one's fingers?

there are elaborate rituals involving water and rice. one of my grandfathers was a stickler about this sort of thing.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/rituals-ceremonies-pujas/3642-before-after-food-mantram.html
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:27 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
Until recently, the Patwaris came from one sect of  Brahmins in Telangana (and AP). I am sure, the situation was similar in states like Karnataka and Maharashtra. Traditionally, they were given a small share of the crop on an annual basis by families living in the village. Then, the British created a salary system for them. However, the Patwaris invented clever ways (corruption) to build personal wealth. I bet, a lot of them became CONartists. There was no DK-like movement in AP because the Brahmin community led the reform movement.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:00 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
Until recently, the Patwaris came from one sect of  Brahmins in Telangana (and AP). I am sure, the situation was similar in states like Karnataka and Maharashtra. Traditionally, they were given a small share of the crop on an annual basis by families living in the village. Then, the British created a salary system for them. However, the Patwaris invented clever ways (corruption) to build personal wealth. I bet, a lot of them became CONartists. There was no DK-like movement in AP because the Brahmin community led the reform movement.
Just goes on to show that a few Telengana brahmins working as Patwaris and getting a small share of the crop in return for their work (record keeping etc. on land and revenue in the village) could not be in a position to scam the entire land ownership system in the state / area, leading to the accusations for the entire Telengana brahmin community as guilty of stealing non-brahmins' lands by colluding with Muslim Tehsildars.
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Post by confuzzled dude Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:24 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
This was not an attempt to single out Karanams (TBT, > 90% of karanams are Brahmins); Brahmins (Niyogis in this case) are not an exception, upper caste land lords (patelu) are subjected similar criticism. But this doesn't mean one will or should start hating them, this is just a discussion/dialogue about historical events and facts.

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Post by Propagandhi711 Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:26 pm

tl;dr. what's the conclusion. is it established if brahmins are evil or not...if so, which sects and how do you recognise them. need the cliffs

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Post by confuzzled dude Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:54 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
Until recently, the Patwaris came from one sect of  Brahmins in Telangana (and AP). I am sure, the situation was similar in states like Karnataka and Maharashtra. Traditionally, they were given a small share of the crop on an annual basis by families living in the village. Then, the British created a salary system for them. However, the Patwaris invented clever ways (corruption) to build personal wealth. I bet, a lot of them became CONartists. There was no DK-like movement in AP because the Brahmin community led the reform movement.
Just goes on to show that a few Telengana brahmins working as Patwaris and getting a small share of the crop in return for their work (record keeping etc. on land and revenue in the village) could not be in a position to scam the entire land ownership system in the state / area, leading to the accusations for the entire Telengana brahmin community as guilty of stealing non-brahmins' lands by colluding with Muslim Tehsildars.
Sevaji, no one is blaming Brahmin community, the point is to prove your assertion that convent schools corrupting young minds accusation is incorrect.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:57 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sevaji, Are you suggesting that Indians are dumb to figure out this stuff and need foreigners to educate or brainwash them? In Telangana, general complaint is that Brahmins (patwari/karanam/village accountant) sided with Muslim Tehasildars and stole their lands.
CD, will it be reasonable on the part of any school system, especially a non-Hindu religious school system, to teach in its "moral" or any other class to young students that Telangana brahmins, while siding with the Muslim revenue officials (Tehsildars), stole non-brahmins' lands? 
Of course not. 
Moreover, this type of generalization about Telengana brahmins as a whole community is totally wrong, because not all the Telengana brahmins could have been working as patawari/karanam/village-accountant to be in a position  to side with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others' lands.
In addition, if any brahmins in Telengana sided with Muslim Tehsildars while working as Patawari etc. and stole others lands, the same thing must have been going on in Telegana with others (non-brahmins working as Patawaris etc.) siding with Muslim Tehsildars and steal others lands (including brahmins' lands). Why single out brammins as the culprits?
This was not an attempt to single out Karanams (TBT, > 90% of karanams are Brahmins); Brahmins (Niyogis in this case) are not an exception, upper caste land lords (patelu) are subjected similar criticism. But this doesn't mean one will or should start hating them, this is just a discussion/dialogue about historical events and facts.
It might be a historical fact that a small percentage of Telengana brahmins at one time worked as karnams and might have been colluding with Muslim Tehsildars to scam people's lands, but that shouldn't be generalized about all the Telangana brahmins as karanams and land scammers (as your statement implied initially) or taught in any school system for the young that Telengana brahmins were scamming others' lands (as seems to be the case for the Convent school class,"brahmins were exploiting / suppressing others in the past").
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