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The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee)

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The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee) Empty The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee)

Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:42 pm

The "fee" (Dronacharya getting Eklavya's archer's thumb removed) in reality probably was the punishment given to Eklavya for using Dronacharya's image and name in learning archery without permission from Dronacharya, even after having been refused once before by Dronacharya, and thus also interfere in the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and the Hastinapur's Royals which required that Dronacharya would be responsible for the education and welfare of Hastinapur's princes (Kauravas and Pandavas) only; Eklavya was not one of the Pandava or Kaurava princes and therefore did not qualify for the education and welfare consideration on the part of Dronacharya as per Dronacharya's exclusive contractual obligations with his employer (Hastinapur's Royals), as indicated earlier.

Needless to say, by having Eklavya's thumb removed, the exclusive nature of Dronacharya's contract with his employer (Hastinapur's Royals) was restored, because any advantage acquired by Eklavya in "learning" archery from Dronacharya (even by using Dronacharya's name / image without permission) would be lost with the removal of Eklavya's archer's thumb.

In a way, Eklavya turned out be lucky that he lost only his thumb, and not his life, for interfering and violating the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur's Royals. Moreover, Dronacharya could have lost his own hard-earned job, and perhaps even worse (e.g. face exile, imprisonment or death), at the hands of his employer (Hastinapur's Royals) if he had not this way (by having gotten rid of Eklavya's thumb) neutralized Eklavya's training / advantage acquired using him (his name / image). (Section 'B' --http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-through-the-sands-of-time_465740_blog)
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:45 pm

this is a terrible analysis by Seva. anyone can keep an image of someone else for inspiration without having to cut off their thumb for any reason. besides being a terrible analysis this kind of thinking also infuriates the dalits and deepens the caste divide.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:04 pm

Rashmun wrote:this is a terrible analysis by Seva. anyone can keep an image of someone else for inspiration without having to cut off their thumb for any reason. besides being a terrible analysis this kind of thinking also infuriates the dalits and deepens the caste divide.
Why terrible, and it's not a caste issue. 

Look at Dronacharya's dilemma and anxiety after finding out that people (Eklavya for example) were able to learn archery just by using his name / image and nobody therefore needed to hire him as a teacher and pay him for tutoring. Would that have made him proud and financially secure? Of course, not. 

Moreover, wouldn't the Hastinapur Royals (his then employer) take a clue from Eklavya (mastering archery by just using Dronacharya's image / name), get rid of Dronacharya as a teacher for the princes  and just use a Dronacharya's picture to have princes (Pandavas and Kauravas) learn and master archery, if Dronacharya had not discouraged the abuse / misuse / freeloading of his name / image  as he did by having cut off Eklavya's archer's thumb?
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:28 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:this is a terrible analysis by Seva. anyone can keep an image of someone else for inspiration without having to cut off their thumb for any reason. besides being a terrible analysis this kind of thinking also infuriates the dalits and deepens the caste divide.
Why terrible, and it's not a caste issue. 

Look at Dronacharya's dilemma and anxiety after finding out that people (Eklavya for example) were able to learn archery just by using his name / image and nobody therefore needed to hire him as a teacher and pay him for tutoring. Would that have made him proud and financially secure? Of course, not. 

Moreover, wouldn't the Hastinapur Royals (his then employer) take a clue from Eklavya (mastering archery by just using Dronacharya's image / name), get rid of Dronacharya as a teacher for the princes  and just use a Dronacharya's picture to have princes (Pandavas and Kauravas) learn and master archery, if Dronacharya had not discouraged the abuse / misuse / freeloading of his name / image  as he did by having cut off Eklavya's archer's thumb?
CONgress is full of Ekalavyas. They put the picture of Soonya in their bedrooms and worship her. That is how they learn how to rob people in broad daylight and deposit black money in Panama, Switzerland, etc. Leaders like Abhishek Manu Singhvi, ND Tiwari and Doggy do their "tantric" private rituals while looking at Soonya's picture and in their excitement, shout, "Garibi Hatao"!

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Post by seven Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:The "fee" (Dronacharya getting Eklavya's archer's thumb removed) in reality probably was the punishment given to Eklavya for using Dronacharya's image and name in learning archery without permission from Dronacharya, even after having been refused once before by Dronacharya, and thus also interfere in the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and the Hastinapur's Royals which required that Dronacharya would be responsible for the education and welfare of Hastinapur's princes (Kauravas and Pandavas) only; Eklavya was not one of the Pandava or Kaurava princes and therefore did not qualify for the education and welfare consideration on the part of Dronacharya as per Dronacharya's exclusive contractual obligations with his employer (Hastinapur's Royals), as indicated earlier.

Needless to say, by having Eklavya's thumb removed, the exclusive nature of Dronacharya's contract with his employer (Hastinapur's Royals) was restored, because any advantage acquired by Eklavya in "learning" archery from Dronacharya (even by using Dronacharya's name / image without permission) would be lost with the removal of Eklavya's archer's thumb.

In a way, Eklavya turned out be lucky that he lost only his thumb, and not his life, for interfering and violating the exclusive contract between Dronacharya and Hastinapur's Royals. Moreover, Dronacharya could have lost his own hard-earned job, and perhaps even worse (e.g. face exile, imprisonment or death), at the hands of his employer (Hastinapur's Royals) if he had not this way (by having gotten rid of Eklavya's thumb) neutralized Eklavya's training / advantage acquired using him (his name / image). (Section 'B' --http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-through-the-sands-of-time_465740_blog)
If anyone can break the contract, it's the people who are bound by it meaning the people who signed up for it. In this case it would be dronaC or the royals. They were in a contract. Not eklavya. He's not even a related party. He's irrelevant to the contract. Therefore cannot be punished for breaking of it. 
DronaC was a brand and eklavya violated the copyrights by using his name. That's why he can be asked for compensation. 
I don't buy the dronaC was afraid people will stop hiring him Bcz of what eklavya did is like Louis Vuitton worrying all the duplicates out in the world will stop getting on wait list to buy LV.

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Post by Kris Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:25 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:this is a terrible analysis by Seva. anyone can keep an image of someone else for inspiration without having to cut off their thumb for any reason. besides being a terrible analysis this kind of thinking also infuriates the dalits and deepens the caste divide.
Why terrible, and it's not a caste issue. 

Look at Dronacharya's dilemma and anxiety after finding out that people (Eklavya for example) were able to learn archery just by using his name / image and nobody therefore needed to hire him as a teacher and pay him for tutoring. Would that have made him proud and financially secure? Of course, not. 

Moreover, wouldn't the Hastinapur Royals (his then employer) take a clue from Eklavya (mastering archery by just using Dronacharya's image / name), get rid of Dronacharya as a teacher for the princes  and just use a Dronacharya's picture to have princes (Pandavas and Kauravas) learn and master archery, if Dronacharya had not discouraged the abuse / misuse / freeloading of his name / image  as he did by having cut off Eklavya's archer's thumb?
>>>Seva,

I have to agree with Seven on this. Ekalavya was not a party to any contract. In essence, it can be argued that he used the power of auto-suggestion to motivate himself and excel. The only case that can be made here is that he used an image of Drona without his permission. The collecting of the thumb was in essence a ploy to maintain the princes' privilege. Honestly, it really seems like a slap in the face of the likes of Arjuna by eliminating the competition from this able archer through trickery.

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Post by Appalamma Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:17 am

I heard some one make an argument that Ekalavya was a cruel person, so he does not deserve to be great. Which seems somewhat justifiable, no?

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Post by Kris Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:06 am

Appalamma wrote:I heard some one make an argument that Ekalavya was a cruel person, so he does not deserve to be great. Which seems somewhat justifiable, no?
>>> I think that is still problematic. The 'cruelty' aspect may itself may be a matter of opinion. Also, the same logic could have been applied to the Kauravas and yet they were not asked for their thumbs. Even the "good guys", the Pandavas, were not without flaws. There are a lot of gray areas.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:38 am

Kris wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:this is a terrible analysis by Seva. anyone can keep an image of someone else for inspiration without having to cut off their thumb for any reason. besides being a terrible analysis this kind of thinking also infuriates the dalits and deepens the caste divide.
Why terrible, and it's not a caste issue. 

Look at Dronacharya's dilemma and anxiety after finding out that people (Eklavya for example) were able to learn archery just by using his name / image and nobody therefore needed to hire him as a teacher and pay him for tutoring. Would that have made him proud and financially secure? Of course, not. 

Moreover, wouldn't the Hastinapur Royals (his then employer) take a clue from Eklavya (mastering archery by just using Dronacharya's image / name), get rid of Dronacharya as a teacher for the princes  and just use a Dronacharya's picture to have princes (Pandavas and Kauravas) learn and master archery, if Dronacharya had not discouraged the abuse / misuse / freeloading of his name / image  as he did by having cut off Eklavya's archer's thumb?
>>>Seva,

I have to agree with Seven on this. Ekalavya was not a party to any contract. In essence, it can be argued that he used the power of auto-suggestion to motivate himself and excel. The only case that can be made here is that he used an image of Drona without his permission. The collecting of the thumb was in essence a ploy to maintain the princes' privilege. Honestly, it really seems like a slap in the face of the likes of Arjuna by eliminating the competition from this able archer through trickery.
It looks like you both (Seven & you) never had to struggle to find a job and hold on to it. Dronacharya certainly did not want to put his own job and well-being in jeopardy as the teacher and mentor exclusively for Hastinapur princes (Pandavas and Kauravas only), especially after having faced earlier tremendous economic hardship and employment difficulty prior to finally landing a job with Hastinapur's Royals as the teacher / mentor for Kaurava and Pandava princes only (Section 'B' --http://creative.sulekha.com/caste-through-the-sands-of-time_465740_blog).
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Post by seven Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:28 am

If dronaC was as brilliant as he was thought to be, it shouldn't have been so hard to find jobs. Royals won't just hire anybody. Only best of the best. So Dronacharya didn't have a job insecurity problem. 
The only believable, most human thing is he looked out for *his* pupils. He got rid of competition either because he was unsure about his product (Arjun) or the copyright violation equivalent of those days.

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:48 am

Looks like everyone is looking at the issue through Sikular lenses. Remember that it was a different era.

In Ramayana, if Rama played CONgames, his subjects would have lynched him and in Sick-ayana, if Soonya and her mantries don't swindle money and start talking about Rama raajya, they will be sent to mental institutions.

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Post by seven Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:51 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Looks like everyone is looking at the issue through Sikular lenses. Remember that it was a different era.

In Ramayana, if Rama played CONgames, his subjects would have lynched him and in Sick-ayana, if Soonya and her mantries don't swindle money and start talking about Rama raajya, they will be sent to mental institutions.
I don't follow. I'm not a sickular. I'm progressive n a Modi fan.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:51 pm

seven wrote:If dronaC was as brilliant as he was thought to be, it shouldn't have been so hard to find jobs. Royals won't just hire anybody. Only best of the best. So Dronacharya didn't have a job insecurity problem. 
The only believable, most human thing is he looked out for *his* pupils. He got rid of competition either because he was unsure about his product (Arjun) or the copyright violation equivalent of those days.
You don't really seem to know much about copyright infringements and intellectual property protections even during the present times.  If you work for a company these days, whatever you discover as new in your job belongs to the company and not you. Moreover, when you switch jobs you can't start producing in your new job the item discovered by you in the previous place, lest you and your new employer are charged legally for copyright infringement and piracy etc.  The exclusive clause in Dronacharya's contract with Hastinapur Royals was in their own interest and not for the sake of Dronacharya, so he needed to respect and uphold it if he wanted to keep his job and ensure his well-being, financially and otherwise.
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Post by seven Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:05 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
seven wrote:If dronaC was as brilliant as he was thought to be, it shouldn't have been so hard to find jobs. Royals won't just hire anybody. Only best of the best. So Dronacharya didn't have a job insecurity problem. 
The only believable, most human thing is he looked out for *his* pupils. He got rid of competition either because he was unsure about his product (Arjun) or the copyright violation equivalent of those days.
You don't really seem to know much about copyright infringements and intellectual property protections even during the present times.  If you work for a company these days, whatever you discover as new in your job belongs to the company and not you. Moreover, when you switch jobs you can't start producing in your new job the item discovered by you in the previous place, lest you and your new employer are charged legally for copyright infringement and piracy etc.  The exclusive clause in Dronacharya's contract with Hastinapur Royals was in their own interest and not for the sake of Dronacharya, so he needed to respect and uphold it if he wanted to keep his job and ensure his well-being financially and otherwise.
The exclusivity contract is not what I'm calling the brand. I said Dronacharya was the brand. So using his name is copyright infringement. 
Exclusivity contract is another point I made. We cannot say eklavya broke the contract therefore punished. The contract was between teacher n royals. Only they are responsible for it. 
I understand how IP works in today's world. What I am calling a brand is guru Dronacharya himself. Not the royal employers. Breaking the contract with employers equals teaching other kids...this is on DronaC. IP infringement equals using DronaC's brand to your benefit...this is on Eklavya. Two different possibilities of why the thumb was taken.

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Post by seven Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:12 pm

Understand it like this. If maybelline hires Taylor swift to do a job (sell mascara), they're using her name to sell something. But her name doesn't belong to them. She's a brand. They don't own her. 

this example should help you understand my copyright conspiracy theory.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:20 pm

seven wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
seven wrote:If dronaC was as brilliant as he was thought to be, it shouldn't have been so hard to find jobs. Royals won't just hire anybody. Only best of the best. So Dronacharya didn't have a job insecurity problem. 
The only believable, most human thing is he looked out for *his* pupils. He got rid of competition either because he was unsure about his product (Arjun) or the copyright violation equivalent of those days.
You don't really seem to know much about copyright infringements and intellectual property protections even during the present times.  If you work for a company these days, whatever you discover as new in your job belongs to the company and not you. Moreover, when you switch jobs you can't start producing in your new job the item discovered by you in the previous place, lest you and your new employer are charged legally for copyright infringement and piracy etc.  The exclusive clause in Dronacharya's contract with Hastinapur Royals was in their own interest and not for the sake of Dronacharya, so he needed to respect and uphold it if he wanted to keep his job and ensure his well-being financially and otherwise.
The exclusivity contract is not what I'm calling the brand. I said Dronacharya was the brand. So using his name is copyright infringement. 
Exclusivity contract is another point I made. We cannot say eklavya broke the contract therefore punished. The contract was between teacher n royals. Only they are responsible for it. 
I understand how IP works in today's world. What I am calling a brand is guru Dronacharya himself. Not the royal employers. Breaking the contract with employers equals teaching other kids...this is on DronaC. IP infringement equals using DronaC's brand to your benefit...this is on Eklavya. Two different possibilities of why the thumb was taken.
Read the earlier write-ups by me carefully to find out as to how Eklavya interfered with and violated the contract (including the exclusive clause) between Dronacharya and H. Royals, and whether, or not, he needed to face the punishment / action (surrendering the archer's thumb at least) to neutralize the undue advantage acquired by him against the Royals (Pandava and Kaurava princes) so that the contract between Dronacharya and the Royals remained true.
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:32 pm

seven wrote:Understand it like this. If maybelline hires Taylor swift to do a job (sell mascara), they're using her name to sell something. But her name doesn't belong to them. She's a brand. They don't own her. 

this example should help you understand my copyright conspiracy theory.
Your copyright theory (famous people / persons hired to sell mascara to everyone on the street and in stores) does not apply in this case (Dronacharya hired to teach / train only Kaurava and Pandava princes). Read my earlier posts carefully.
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Post by seven Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:42 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
seven wrote:Understand it like this. If maybelline hires Taylor swift to do a job (sell mascara), they're using her name to sell something. But her name doesn't belong to them. She's a brand. They don't own her. 

this example should help you understand my copyright conspiracy theory.
Your copyright theory (famous people / persons hired to sell mascara to everyone on the street and in stores) does not apply in this case (Dronacharya hired to teach / train only Kaurava and Pandava princes). Read my earlier posts carefully.
Ok so he was hired. He signed the contract to teach only royal kids. If he indirectly taught another kid, the kid didn't break the contract. Teacher did. No copyright element in this equation.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:49 pm

seven wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
seven wrote:Understand it like this. If maybelline hires Taylor swift to do a job (sell mascara), they're using her name to sell something. But her name doesn't belong to them. She's a brand. They don't own her. 

this example should help you understand my copyright conspiracy theory.
Your copyright theory (famous people / persons hired to sell mascara to everyone on the street and in stores) does not apply in this case (Dronacharya hired to teach / train only Kaurava and Pandava princes). Read my earlier posts carefully.
Ok so he was hired. He signed the contract to teach only royal kids. If he indirectly taught another kid, the kid didn't break the contract. Teacher did. No copyright element in this equation.
Let's agree to disagree.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

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The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee) Empty Re: The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee)

Post by garam_kuta Mon May 02, 2016 10:06 pm

post facto justification:
but for the forced disability, Ekalavyan would have been inducted in the war and died -- like all warriors of Hastinapuram. his disability spared his life and he survived the war to end Krishna, as the story goes.

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The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee) Empty Re: The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee)

Post by Seva Lamberdar Tue May 03, 2016 9:02 am

garam_kuta wrote:post facto justification:
but for the forced disability, Ekalavyan would have been inducted in the war and died -- like all warriors of Hastinapuram. his disability spared his life and he survived the war to end Krishna, as the story goes.

Besides, as for the unusual punishment to Eklavya in the form of getting his archer's thumb removed to nullify the advantage acquired by him illegally and improperly, that certainly was brutal. Perhaps it was meant not only to punish him, but also teach a lesson to others (to not do something similar in future). Btw, consider the copyright and patent laws today which also discourage replicating and marketing others' ideas and products without prior proper consent and compensation.

Moreover, if we happen to be sitting / staying in a village or a town, learning the things / subjects on our own and locally, we can't go and claim later that we are the students / graduates from a famous university (e.g. Harvard University) even if we did keep a picture of the famous / remote university (or a professor from there) for inspiration in front of us while learning the subjects / things on our own or locally; and if we do that (make such false / exaggerated claims, as the graduates from a famous university or having actually studied under a famous professor), then there will be consequences, usually quite unexpected and unpleasant and very likely leaving us not able to benefit professionally from such false claim (as a Harvard university graduate ...). Eklavya's situation / claim (as Dronacharya's student, by having kept Dronacharya's picture / bust in front of him) was something similar.
Seva Lamberdar
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The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee) Empty Re: The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of "guru-dakshina" (teaching fee)

Post by TruthSeeker Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:59 pm

Hi Seva,

I never could feel a sense of justice for Eklavya.

The way I see it - 

Who is bigger?

The teacher, student, or education itself?

The he-lover, she-lover, or the love itself?

The God, the devotee, or the devotion itself?

People or that quality in these people?

Drona never taught anything to Eklavya, as the person.

Eklavya never anything from Drona, the person.

Eklavya learnt from his "devotion" to Drona.

Drona cannot and should not claim, as a person.

Eklavya Daksina was to "teaching", not to the "teacher".

Its important to distinguish humans-over-quality.

We worship qualities as Hindus, be it in Mother Durga, Sarswati, Ganesha, Hanuman, or Kali - the reason we have gazillion Gods. They represent qualities. 

They are not mere statues or human forms.

Sometimes a Bhakt (a Devotee Eklavya) is what it takes to make a Teacher (human, Drona) greater!

Regards,
TS.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:21 am

TS,
Do you find the police as right or wrong in arresting and questioning the guy in the following story recently for simply claiming that he had landed a job with NASA? and if you think that police is right in arresting this guy for faking his achievement (news of job with NASA), then the same must be said about Eklavya's treatment for going around and claiming falsely to be Dronacharya's student.

"Youth arrested for faking Rs 1.8 crore NASA job ...." -- http://localpress.co.in/2016/09/youth-arrested-faking-rs-1-8-crore-nasa-job-forging-us-president-obamas-signature/
Seva Lamberdar
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