Coffeehouse for desis
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

2 posters

Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

No, as illustrated below:

"May they, our Fathers who in their skill belong to the lowest order, attain higher one, those of midmost may attain the highest. May they who have attained a life of spirit, the knower of sacrifice, the guileless, help us when called upon...." (Rig Veda: Book 10, Hymn 15.1-2);

"O Agni (God), may all mortals seek your friendship, the guide of all. May all solicit you for glory, riches and fame. May all of us prosper as you do." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 1, Prapathaka 3, Hymn i.4.46.a-c);

"O Agni (God), grant glory to our Brahmins, set luster in our Kshatriyas, luster in our Vaishyas, luster in our Shudras.." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 5, Prapathaka 7, Hymn v.7.6.d);

"O Agni (God) ...each fault done in a village or in forest, in society or mind, each sinful act that we have committed to Shudra or Vaishya or by preventing a religious act, even of that sin, you are the expiation..." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d);

"God is one in all, but it seems as if he were many; He (as Vishnu / preserver) supports all beings, from Him (as Rudra / destroyer) ensues end, and from Him (as Brahma / creator) ensues beginning." (Bhagavad Gita: Ch. 13 - V. 16).

http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/_caste.html
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:12 pm

Another link: http://creative.sulekha.com/was-there-any-religious-discrimination-or-mistreatment-on-the-basis-of-vocation-caste-according-to-the-vedas_637446_blog

Incidentally, as explained in the following blogs, any secondary ancient text, story or interpretation (related especially to a Smriti including the Epics) should not be considered as credible and should be ignored if it is seen as violating and contradicting the Shruti (Veda): 

(1) Subhash C. Sharma, "Manu, smriti and the medical paradox", May 29, 2004, http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/manu_smriti.html

(2) Subhash C. Sharma, "The myth about Manusmriti", Jan. 31, 2007, http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/manusmriti_myth.html

(3) Subhash C. Sharma, "Manusmriti -- the book that contradicts the Vedas and itself", April 23, 2010, http://creative.sulekha.com/manusmriti-the-book-that-contradicts-the-vedas-and-itself_469715_blog

(4) Subhash C. Sharma, "The legend of Eklavya in the Mahabharata, who had to surrender his archer's thumb to Dronacharya in lieu of 'guru-dakshina'", April 30, 2016,  http://creative.sulekha.com/the-legend-of-eklavya-in-the-mahabharata-who-had-to-surrender-his-archer-s-thumb-to-dronacharya-in-lieu-of-guru-dakshina_628600_blog
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:15 am

Seva Ji,

How many castes are mentioned in the Vedas? And how many religions? 

I want to know this before considering if they practiced discrimination among castes or religions.

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:06 pm

Seva Ji,

What is the meaning of this verse? Why does it seem to me that caste discrimination was practiced then and this verse is teaching us how get forgiven for doing caste discrimination:

"O Agni (God) ...each fault done in a village or in forest, in society or mind, each sinful act that we have committed to Shudra or Vaishya or by preventing a religious act, even of that sin, you are the expiation..." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d);

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:24 pm

Huzefa ji,

Thanks for both comments / posts,.

In response to the question in your first post ('how many castes or religions mentioned in the Vedas?'), the Veda groups people in society under four general categories (as brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra) taking care of all the tasks, without any restrictions based on heredity or birth, as indicated by the Rig Veda hymn (Book 9, Hymn 112.3): "I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn......".

Moreover, the Rig Veda hymn (Book 10, Hymn 15.1-2) listed above ("May they, our Fathers who in their skill belong to the lowest order, attain higher one, those of midmost may attain the highest. May they who have attained a life of spirit, the knower of sacrifice, the guileless, help us when called upon....") implies that people's place in society, high or low, was the result of their skill, not birth, and the prayer also implies that people could improve their skill and attain a higher place in society. Furthermore, the learned people (basically brahmins),whenever called upon (according to the prayer), would help the lower status persons in attaining higher status. The brahmin Narada helping chandal Valmiki to improve his life and place in society (even become a great sage) is one of the important examples.

Coming to your other comment in the above that Yajur Veda prayer (Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d) implies the practice of caste discrimination based on vocation and skill of people long ago, that is not necessarily so. This prayer is a strong religious injunction against discriminating and mistreating people because of their lowly skills and poor place in society, and not that there was a the practice of widespread discrimination and mistreatment of people with low skills etc.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:16 am

Your Yajur Veda verse sounds a lot like what Gandhiji used to say about Harijans. Ambedkar Ji disliked Gandhi for this reason -- glorifying the work of Harijans and then being a hypocrite. Then Gandhiji's son married out of caste and Gandhiji got majorly upset. 

I don't think much about castes so I don't know whether Gandhiji or Ambedkar Ji was right. For me it does not matter and both were great, great souls.

My interest was only from the point of religions around when Vedas were composed (maybe Zorastrianism? Possibly not) but thanks for your replies.

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:44 am

"O Agni (God) ...each fault done in a village or in forest, in society or mind, each sinful act that we have committed to Shudra or Vaishya or by preventing a religious act, even of that sin, you are the expiation..." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d);

>>> This hymn (injunction) from the Yajur Veda has nothing to do in terms of glorification of Shudra or Vaishya, but it basically is a way to atonement for any infraction / fault done in a village or a forest (including preventing a religious act), as well as a strong deterrent against any sinful discrimination and mistreatment of Vaishya and Shudra, mentally or in society.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:48 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:"O Agni (God) ...each fault done in a village or in forest, in society or mind, each sinful act that we have committed to Shudra or Vaishya or by preventing a religious act, even of that sin, you are the expiation..." (Yajur Veda: Kanda 1, Prapathaka 8, Hymn i.8.3.d);

>>> This hymn (injunction) from the Yajur Veda has nothing to do in terms of glorification of Shudra or Vaishya, but it basically is a way to atonement for any infraction / fault done in a village or a forest (including preventing a religious act), as well as a strong deterrent against any sinful discrimination and mistreatment of Vaishya and Shudra, mentally or in society.

Seva Ji,

You are trying to tell me that their were villages when the Vedas were composed? 

I suppose it is only in a village that you can have carpenter and blacksmith. Is that why you added the word "village" in your reply?

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:10 pm

A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:42 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.

You might be a self proclaimed pedant, but try not to reinvent the meaning of "village."

I trust you have some familiarity with the lives who composed the Vedas led?

You can add to the conversation if you have something new to add to your original claim except lies.

I'm very disappointed with your dis-ingenuity. I also have nowhere else to go.

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:16 pm

Huzefa wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.

You might be a self proclaimed pedant, but try not to reinvent the meaning of "village."

I trust you have some familiarity with the lives who composed the Vedas led?

You can add to the conversation if you have something new to add to your original claim except lies.

I'm very disappointed with your dis-ingenuity. I also have nowhere else to go.
Your concern about "village" is unnecessary and purely on semantics, and not on substance.  

Here "each fault done in a village or in forest" implies in the sense of the fault done anywhere or everywhere, and not that whether the prayer relates specifically to a village or a hamlet or a town or a city. 

The use of "in a village or a forest" in the prayer indicates that it in essence is true for all places, and not bound by the semantics.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:37 am

I just goggleed. Yajurveda was composed in the time of Mahabharata in punjab/haryana. Certainly there were "villages" then, and big ones at that. Somehow my brain is stuck in the Rig Vedic period of Harrapans when the Vedic People lived in the mountains of Helmland (no villages then).

Profuse apologies Seva Ji.

Please carry on with your periodic exegeses of the Vedas. Sorry again. Smile

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:03 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.
No it cannot be called a village Seva Ji.

A "village" is strictly a phenomena of an agrarian society (Harrapans).

A village is a complex equation. Hard to generalize easily. Think about hunter gatherers and tribal societies still extant in India -- they don't have villages.

Agreed Seva Ji?

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:25 pm

Huzefa wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.
No it cannot be called a village Seva Ji.

A "village" is strictly a phenomena of an agrarian society (Harrapans).

A village is a complex equation. Hard to generalize easily. Think about hunter gatherers and tribal societies still extant in India -- they don't have villages.

Agreed Seva Ji?
Your definition of tribe is very narrow and probably the result of criterion used by Govt. these days on Scheduled Tribe quotas / reservations. During Vedic times, tribe was the word used for society at large, having people engaged in all activities (including brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya,...), and not restricted for hunter gatherers as tribals.
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:11 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Huzefa wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.
No it cannot be called a village Seva Ji.

A "village" is strictly a phenomena of an agrarian society (Harrapans).

A village is a complex equation. Hard to generalize easily. Think about hunter gatherers and tribal societies still extant in India -- they don't have villages.

Agreed Seva Ji?
Your definition of tribe is very narrow and probably the result of criterion used by Govt. these days on Scheduled Tribe quotas / reservations. During Vedic times, tribe was the word used for society at large, having people engaged in all activities (including brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya,...), and not restricted for hunter gatherers as tribals.

Arre baba, I am not disagreeing with you. 

A collection of huts in times of Yajurveda was a village. I agree. There is no argument here.

But that does not mean that any collection of huts constitutes a village. For a village to spring into existence, there are complex structures that must emerge -- a village idiot, village barber, village temple, village kitchen, village town planning etc. Normally, in anthropology, it has been observed that for this level of complexity to self-emerge, the village must by agrarian. Therefore villages, as a phenomena, are associated with post-hunter-gatherer societies. The social inter-relations in non agrarian societies are too feeble to permit villages from self-emerging.

Therefore, a collection of huts in the time of Rig Vedic society cannot be called a village (there was no caste system or blacksmith, sweeper, priest herarchies then either).

Are we on the same page now Pandit Ji?

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:44 pm

Huzefa wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Huzefa wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:A collection of huts, basically a hamlet, can be called a village.
No it cannot be called a village Seva Ji.

A "village" is strictly a phenomena of an agrarian society (Harrapans).

A village is a complex equation. Hard to generalize easily. Think about hunter gatherers and tribal societies still extant in India -- they don't have villages.

Agreed Seva Ji?
Your definition of tribe is very narrow and probably the result of criterion used by Govt. these days on Scheduled Tribe quotas / reservations. During Vedic times, tribe was the word used for society at large, having people engaged in all activities (including brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya,...), and not restricted for hunter gatherers as tribals.

Arre baba, I am not disagreeing with you. 

A collection of huts in times of Yajurveda was a village. I agree. There is no argument here.

But that does not mean that any collection of huts constitutes a village. For a village to spring into existence, there are complex structures that must emerge -- a village idiot, village barber, village temple, village kitchen, village town planning etc. Normally, in anthropology, it has been observed that for this level of complexity to self-emerge, the village must by agrarian. Therefore villages, as a phenomena, are associated with post-hunter-gatherer societies. The social inter-relations in non agrarian societies are too feeble to permit villages from self-emerging.

Therefore, a collection of huts in the time of Rig Vedic society cannot be called a village (there was no caste system or blacksmith, sweeper, priest herarchies then either).

Are we on the same page now Pandit Ji?
Let's look at the following three hymns from the Rig Veda, which are not on the hunter-gatherers and  nomads as you seem to be thinking of people during Rig Veda times. Instead, the following speak of many occupations in society, unlike in the case of hunter-gathers alone or living only as nomads. Moreover, people even seem to go from one vocation to other then (@ Rig Veda) by changing their skill, which would not have happened if people were just hunter-gathers and nomads. Naturally, their habitat was much more complex and on a broader scale than a few huts together.  

"We all possess various thoughts and plans and diverse are the callings of men. The carpenter seeks out that which is cracked, the physician the ailing, the priest the worshipper......." (Rig Veda: Book 9, Hymn 112.1);

"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn......" (Rig Veda: Book 9, Hymn 112.3).

"May they, our Fathers who in their skill belong to the lowest order, attain higher one, those of midmost may attain the highest. May they who have attained a life of spirit, the knower of sacrifice, the guileless, help us when called upon...." (Rig Veda: Book 10, Hymn 15.1-2)
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Huzefa Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:26 pm

You are right. Rig Veda was also composed in 
Punjab in time of Kuru kingdom. Evidently I was thinking of proto vedic people who were contemporaneous with Harrapans. Sorry again. Smile

Huzefa

Posts : 42
Join date : 2019-06-08

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:47 am

"Rig Veda was also composed in Punjab in time of Kuru kingdom."  Huzefa

>>>> The following might be of interest to you,

"How old are the Vedas and who can read them":
https://such.forumotion.com/t13620-how-old-are-the-vedas-and-who-can-read-them-an-old-post-aug-23-2006
Seva Lamberdar
Seva Lamberdar

Posts : 6580
Join date : 2012-11-29

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bYp0igbxHcmg1G1J-qw0VUBSn7Fu

Back to top Go down

Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas? Empty Re: Was there any religious discrimination or mistreatment on the basis of vocation (caste) according to the Vedas?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum