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the craziness of our dravidian tongues
by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:44 am
someone theorizing on how pa <-> ha mapping occurred:
http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=2469592601635473489
http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=2469592601635473489
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: the craziness of our dravidian tongues
by indophile Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:21 am
The change had nothing to do with writing
But many Telugu people tend to pronounce tha as dha, and that's probably because [] neither sound is COMPLETELY native to them, [] they look VERY similar in writing.
The "tha" - "dha" interchange may occur in street level slangy Telugu, but I've yet to come across a Telugu person saying "teerdham" for the correct "teertham" (the holy tulasi water the temple priest gives you to sip), "kadha" for the correct "katha" (story), or "radhamu" for the correct "rathamu" (charriot).
On the other I must admit I've heard many singers mess up Tyagaraja's "nidhi chaalaa sukhama" song. The correct diction is - nidhi chaalaa sukhamaa? raamuni sannidhi seva sukhamaa? nijamuga palku manasaa. dadhi navaneeta ksheeramulu ruchiyo, daaSarathi dhyaana sudhaarasamu ruchiyo ......
But many Telugu people tend to pronounce tha as dha, and that's probably because [] neither sound is COMPLETELY native to them, [] they look VERY similar in writing.
The "tha" - "dha" interchange may occur in street level slangy Telugu, but I've yet to come across a Telugu person saying "teerdham" for the correct "teertham" (the holy tulasi water the temple priest gives you to sip), "kadha" for the correct "katha" (story), or "radhamu" for the correct "rathamu" (charriot).
On the other I must admit I've heard many singers mess up Tyagaraja's "nidhi chaalaa sukhama" song. The correct diction is - nidhi chaalaa sukhamaa? raamuni sannidhi seva sukhamaa? nijamuga palku manasaa. dadhi navaneeta ksheeramulu ruchiyo, daaSarathi dhyaana sudhaarasamu ruchiyo ......
indophile- Posts : 4338
Join date : 2011-04-29
Location : Glenn Dale, MD
Re: the craziness of our dravidian tongues
by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:34 pm
taking mini breaks between constant and stressed out writing for a deadline. i love this song. i'd love it if indo can post translations of the lines he posted. from my very limited knowledge of the meaning of the sahityam, it means:
is nidhi (wealth) chAla (very) sukhamA (beneficial)? or is rAmA's sannidhi (feet is a poor translation; don't think there is an appropriate translation for sannidhi) seva (worship) sukhamA (beneficial)?
nijamuga palku manasA (tell me the truth my heart?)
navanIta kshIramulu ruchiyO? (is something new something tasty?) OR
dAsarathi (dasarathA's son, i.e. rAmA) dhyAna sudhA (thoughts of) rasamu (emotions from?) ruchiyO (tasty)?
i can of course look it up but what's the fun in that? but thyAgarAjA wrote other such krithis posing such questions as if they are conflicts to be resolved.
another favorite krithi of mine with a similar tenor is the one in rIthigowLA, "dwaithamu sukhamA, advaithamu sukhamA?". and the joke used to be that semmangudi being the staunch advaitin he is used to sing it as, "(long and muted aaaaaaa)dwaithamu sukhamA, advaithamu sukhamA?
is nidhi (wealth) chAla (very) sukhamA (beneficial)? or is rAmA's sannidhi (feet is a poor translation; don't think there is an appropriate translation for sannidhi) seva (worship) sukhamA (beneficial)?
nijamuga palku manasA (tell me the truth my heart?)
navanIta kshIramulu ruchiyO? (is something new something tasty?) OR
dAsarathi (dasarathA's son, i.e. rAmA) dhyAna sudhA (thoughts of) rasamu (emotions from?) ruchiyO (tasty)?
i can of course look it up but what's the fun in that? but thyAgarAjA wrote other such krithis posing such questions as if they are conflicts to be resolved.
another favorite krithi of mine with a similar tenor is the one in rIthigowLA, "dwaithamu sukhamA, advaithamu sukhamA?". and the joke used to be that semmangudi being the staunch advaitin he is used to sing it as, "(long and muted aaaaaaa)dwaithamu sukhamA, advaithamu sukhamA?
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: the craziness of our dravidian tongues
by indophile Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:58 pm
Here is a translation of "nidhi chaalaa sukhamaa." Of course, more knowledgeable people may have done a better job.
nidhi chaalaa sukhamaa?
raamuni sannidhi seva sukhamaa?
nijamuga palku manasaa
Is possession of wealth more comforting? Or
Is service attending to Rama more comforting?
Give me the truthful answer, O mind!
dadhi navaneeta ksheeramulu ruchiyo?
daaSarathi dhyaana bhajana sudha rasamu ruchiyo?
Are yogurt, butter, and milk more desirable? Or
Is the “cream of amritam”-like meditation and bhajana of Dasaratha's son more desirable?
dama Samamanu gangaa snaanamu sukhamaa?
kardama durviṣhaya koopa snaanamu sukhamaa?
This is a difficult one. Here Tyagaraja is referring to two of the six behavioral traits of great souls sama (control on mind), dama (control on body) being two of them (In another song, “raminchu-vaar-evarura,” he refers to the same six virtue set when he says – samaadi (sama etc.) shadguna (six virtues) gana sakala bhuvana janulalo) –
As for the meaning of the verse –
Is the sama-dama-like (virtuous, sin-washing) bath in the sacred ganga more comfortable? Or is a bath (dip) in the evil sense object filled smelly well more comforting?
mamataa bandhana-yuta nara-stuti sukhamaa?
sumati tyaagaraaja nutuni keertana sukhamaa?
Is attachment-fetters-driven praising of humans really comforting? Or
Is pure-minded Tyagaraja singing praises of the Lord more comforting?
Tell me the truth, o mind!
nidhi chaalaa sukhamaa?
raamuni sannidhi seva sukhamaa?
nijamuga palku manasaa
Is possession of wealth more comforting? Or
Is service attending to Rama more comforting?
Give me the truthful answer, O mind!
dadhi navaneeta ksheeramulu ruchiyo?
daaSarathi dhyaana bhajana sudha rasamu ruchiyo?
Are yogurt, butter, and milk more desirable? Or
Is the “cream of amritam”-like meditation and bhajana of Dasaratha's son more desirable?
dama Samamanu gangaa snaanamu sukhamaa?
kardama durviṣhaya koopa snaanamu sukhamaa?
This is a difficult one. Here Tyagaraja is referring to two of the six behavioral traits of great souls sama (control on mind), dama (control on body) being two of them (In another song, “raminchu-vaar-evarura,” he refers to the same six virtue set when he says – samaadi (sama etc.) shadguna (six virtues) gana sakala bhuvana janulalo) –
As for the meaning of the verse –
Is the sama-dama-like (virtuous, sin-washing) bath in the sacred ganga more comfortable? Or is a bath (dip) in the evil sense object filled smelly well more comforting?
mamataa bandhana-yuta nara-stuti sukhamaa?
sumati tyaagaraaja nutuni keertana sukhamaa?
Is attachment-fetters-driven praising of humans really comforting? Or
Is pure-minded Tyagaraja singing praises of the Lord more comforting?
Tell me the truth, o mind!
indophile- Posts : 4338
Join date : 2011-04-29
Location : Glenn Dale, MD
Re: the craziness of our dravidian tongues
by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:14 pm
thanks indo. these two existential crises krithis of thyAgarAjA, the one in kalyAni and the one in rIthigowLA are two of my favorites.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
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