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Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
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goodcitizn
bw
Marathadi-Saamiyaar
Vakavaka Pakapaka
Idéfix
MaxEntropy_Man
Kayalvizhi
11 posters
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i do not believe this theory because it is speculative. a band of tamilians speak a quaint gujarati in TN. does it mean gujaratis were pushed out of TN?Rashmun wrote:the only way you can explain the existence of the dravidian language Brahui in Pakistan is we agree that the dravidians were pushed to SI by the aryans because the aryans were militarily stronger. Otherwise what is your explanation for Brahui ?
No, in this case the Gujaratis immigrated to TN. The question is: do you then believe that South Indians migrated (in fairly large numbers) to present day Pakistan?
The most respected online source of information about the IVC, to the best of my knowledge, is this one:
http://www.harappa.com/
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:
good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).
does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?
the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.
a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.
bw- Posts : 2922
Join date : 2012-11-15
Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Your instinct was in the right place in 2003.Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
i am disinclined to forward any theory of mass migration based on language markers. it is not a question of being PC. this is a trap old scholars fell for. any theory of mas migration must have archaeological or genetic support and not just language alone. dravidian language itself might not be native to india. it shares affinity with old languages of iran like elamite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languagesRashmun wrote:No, in this case the Gujaratis immigrated to TN. The question is: do you then believe that South Indians migrated (in fairly large numbers) to present day Pakistan?
in the above link, brahui speakers describe themselves as immigrants from south india.
Last edited by Huzefa Kapasi on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Correct. Southern India was colonized by our species around 60,000 years ago.Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i really do not know much about this subject but i do see that current findings suggest that the IVC or post IVC was a pan indian phenomena, stretching to bangladesh and port cities in the south. there has to be continuity between this civilization and vedic (a post IVC) civilization. to say south india was uninhabited is a stretch.Rashmun wrote:Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!
Even the renowned sulekha scholar sandilya had claimed that SI was for the most part uninhabited at the time the Vedas and Upanisads were composed. Let us not sacrifice Truth at the altar of political correctness.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
There is a specific theory about the Brahui people that traces their origins to a migration from central / southern India around 1,000 years ago.Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i do not believe this theory because it is speculative. a band of tamilians speak a quaint gujarati in TN. does it mean gujaratis were pushed out of TN?Rashmun wrote:the only way you can explain the existence of the dravidian language Brahui in Pakistan is we agree that the dravidians were pushed to SI by the aryans because the aryans were militarily stronger. Otherwise what is your explanation for Brahui ?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
panini press wrote:Correct. Southern India was colonized by our species around 60,000 years ago.Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i really do not know much about this subject but i do see that current findings suggest that the IVC or post IVC was a pan indian phenomena, stretching to bangladesh and port cities in the south. there has to be continuity between this civilization and vedic (a post IVC) civilization. to say south india was uninhabited is a stretch.Rashmun wrote:Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!
Even the renowned sulekha scholar sandilya had claimed that SI was for the most part uninhabited at the time the Vedas and Upanisads were composed. Let us not sacrifice Truth at the altar of political correctness.
there were very few tribals in SI at the time Rig Veda was composed in NI. How many times am i supposed to repeat this?
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:
good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).
does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?
the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.
a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.
PS: Apart from exercise and food, it also gave them ammunition to fling at wallmart-shoppers. Where is JBF these days anyway?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i am disinclined to forward any theory of mass migration based on language markers. it is not a question of being PC. this is a trap old scholars fell for. any theory of mas migration must have archaeological or genetic support and not just language alone. dravidian language itself might not be native to india. it shares affinity with old languages of iran like elamite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languagesRashmun wrote:No, in this case the Gujaratis immigrated to TN. The question is: do you then believe that South Indians migrated (in fairly large numbers) to present day Pakistan?
in the above link, brahui speakers describe themselves as immigrants from south india.
interesting. thanks for the link.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
There is a BIG contradiction in claiming that the Rig Veda was composed in NI and saying that SI was empty at the time. The theory by which SI was empty at the time the Rig Veda was composed, and got populated by Dravidians who went south, also has the Rig Veda and many of the other vedas composed outside India. By that theory, the Aryan people who already had their vedas (composed outside India) displaced the Dravidians in the Sindhu-Saraswati region and pushed them south. By that theory, even much of the post-vedic literature was composed outside of the Gangetic plain, in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Punjab.
Last edited by panini press on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Oh you posted this already. Yeah, I remember reading about the Brahui people's self identification as immigrants from central India a while ago.Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in the above link, brahui speakers describe themselves as immigrants from south india.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
bw wrote:deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?
Of course. These days, it's called Delhi. The most powerful of the deities resides at 10 Janpath Road.
Merlot Daruwala- Posts : 5005
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Merlot Daruwala wrote:bw wrote:deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?
Of course. These days, it's called Delhi. The most powerful of the deities resides at 10 Janpath Road.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
panini press wrote:There is a BIG contradiction in claiming that the Rig Veda was composed in NI and saying that SI was empty at the time. The theory by which SI was empty at the time the Rig Veda was composed, and got populated by Dravidians who went south, also has the Rig Veda and many of the other vedas composed outside India. By that theory, the Aryan people who already had their vedas (composed outside India) displaced the Dravidians in the Sindhu-Saraswati region and pushed them south. By that theory, even much of the post-vedic literature was composed outside of the Gangetic plain, in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Punjab.
The Upanisads are believed to have been composed in the region in and around UP.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:
good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).
does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?
the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.
a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.
there are some very interesting things mentioned in the Rig Veda. very interesting lessons in morality, philosophy, and life in general. let me know if you would care to take a look at some of my blogs on the Rig Veda.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:
good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).
does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?
the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.
a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.
there are some very interesting things mentioned in the Rig Veda. very interesting lessons in morality, philosophy, and life in general. let me know if you would care to take a look at some of my blogs on the Rig Veda.
sure. though i must confess that i find most indian works on philosophy rather hard to comprehend and way too complicated.
something simple like The Prophet is far more accessible.
bw- Posts : 2922
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:Rashmun wrote:bw wrote:
does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?
the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.
a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.
there are some very interesting things mentioned in the Rig Veda. very interesting lessons in morality, philosophy, and life in general. let me know if you would care to take a look at some of my blogs on the Rig Veda.
sure. though i must confess that i find most indian works on philosophy rather hard to comprehend and way too complicated.
something simple like The Prophet is far more accessible.
Give it a shot. (I've written tons of posts and blogs on Indian philosophy on sulekha.com.)
http://creative.sulekha.com/rig-veda-indra-and-varuna_325400_blog
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
Good joke! on a serious note, one other thing to note is that the sanskrit language originates in NI.
There is no evidence for that! UP was also most likely a tribal area during early Sanskrit era.
If Sanskrit originated in the subcontinent, it might have come from the North-west (punjab, POK, J&K?, Gandhar, Uzbek, Indo-Iranian border area.....).
Vakavaka Pakapaka- Posts : 7611
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun wrote:Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
Good joke! on a serious note, one other thing to note is that the sanskrit language originates in NI.
There is no evidence for that! UP was also most likely a tribal area during early Sanskrit era.
If Sanskrit originated in the subcontinent, it might have come from the North-west (punjab, POK, J&K?, Gandhar, Uzbek, Indo-Iranian border area.....).
the point is that it went to SI via NI. you can think of it as a gift of NI to SI.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Rashmun wrote:
at the time the Vedas were composed the population of SI was minimal. So all of these deities, i think, are actually NI.
You Naarthies do need that many deities to save you. Please take as many of them as possible. Or, did all these deities got fed up with the Naarthie studpidities and migrated to south?
Hope they are all anti-hindi by now.
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
goodcitizn wrote:Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
unlike Shiva (who is associated with Mount Kailasa), Krishna (who is associated with Mathura/Vrindavan) and Rama (associated with Ayodhya) UP is not associated with Yama.
Here, unkil, the obligatory
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
I have the answer. Yama lives in Yamrajpur village, Mahasi taluk, Bahraich district, Devipatan division, Gorakhpur region, Uttar Pradesh state. His PIN code is 271824.goodcitizn wrote:Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_parts-of-bahraich-district-in-up-facing-flood-like-situation_1279045
http://pincode.indiaonline.in/BO/Mahasi-BO-79454
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
panini press wrote:I have the answer. Yama lives in Yamrajpur village, Mahasi taluk, Bahraich district, Devipatan division, Gorakhpur region, Uttar Pradesh state. His PIN code is 271824.goodcitizn wrote:Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"
Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_parts-of-bahraich-district-in-up-facing-flood-like-situation_1279045
http://pincode.indiaonline.in/BO/Mahasi-BO-79454
only an atheist who has no respect for hindu beliefs (probably hates hinduism deep down) would talk like this.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
this is by far the most entertaining thread of 2013.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this is by far the most entertaining thread of 2013.
+1
goodcitizn- Posts : 3263
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality
Propagandhi711- Posts : 6941
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Insanity is a reason for annulment. He is overqualified in that.
Hellsangel- Posts : 14721
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality
Propa the numerous kicks you have received from me seem to have taken a toll on your mental balance.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
And he has illusions of grandeur.
Hellsangel- Posts : 14721
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Not too long ago one of his close Internet friends broke communication with HA on the ground that HA is completely mean, malicious, vicious and vindictive. HA has been a shadow of himself since then.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
And delusional to boot. He just bought the Brooklyn bridge.
Hellsangel- Posts : 14721
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
this thread gave me a headache.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Not tonight darling. I just read this thread.
Hellsangel- Posts : 14721
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.
I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:Not too long ago one of his close Internet friends broke communication with HA on the ground that HA is completely mean, malicious, vicious and vindictive. HA has been a shadow of himself since then.
When I said on this forum that HA is completely mean, malicious, vicious and vindictive the former friend of HA responded saying he agrees with me completely and that he had broken off communication with HA after he saw HA mining and revealing private information of posters here.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality
Propa the numerous kicks you have received from me seem to have taken a toll on your mental balance.
no it was the kukri wounds that did me in. I was mortally wounded in the battle under the sun in the plains of gangotri. here HA, take my shield and sword. I'm dying what one hopes is a hero's death at the hands of the great internet warrior douchemunullah gangotrivedi.
Propagandhi711- Posts : 6941
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
kinnera wrote:Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.
I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.
At the time the Rig Veda was written there were only a few coconut tree climbing tribals in SI. Of course later on a galaxy of thinkers emerged from SI who contributed to the development of Hindu philosophy and religion. Synthesis does not mean telling lies. Any symthesis must be on the basis of truth.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Propagandhi711 wrote:Rashmun wrote:Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality
Propa the numerous kicks you have received from me seem to have taken a toll on your mental balance.
no it was the kukri wounds that did me in. I was mortally wounded in the battle under the sun in the plains of gangotri. here HA, take my shield and sword. I'm dying what one hopes is a hero's death at the hands of the great internet warrior douchemunullah gangotrivedi.
One aspect of Propa's nervous breakdown shown in his recent post.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:kinnera wrote:Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.
I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.
At the time the Rig Veda was written there were only a few coconut tree climbing tribals in SI. Of course later on a galaxy of thinkers emerged from SI who contributed to the development of Hindu philosophy and religion. Synthesis does not mean telling lies. Any symthesis must be on the basis of truth.
If you understood the Upanishads, you won't be talking abt north india and south india. Petty minds can only think pettily and talk pettily.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Munmun, sab tere maje le rahe hain. maybe you know that already.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun, sab tere maje le rahe hain. maybe you know that already.
Bollywood Aunty
Main bhi sabke saath Mazaa le raha hoon so not to worry.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
@ rashmun. here is one discovery that indicates harrapan and post harrapan civ. extended to the south. in the last few years there have been many such discoveries. if post harrapan civ. extended to the southernmost tip of gujarat, there is no logical reason to believe why it would not stretch even further south. lothal also serves to remind us that the civilization was not confined to the indo-gangetic plains and ports were preferred, of which many were available in the south. the lack of a serious excavation effort is the problem (and this problem will not go away for whatever excavation was done was done largely by motivated colonials and we lack the motivation). that the south was uninhabited in vedic times is nonsense.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/symbols-akin-to-indus-valley-culture-discovered-in-kerala/article26324.ece
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/symbols-akin-to-indus-valley-culture-discovered-in-kerala/article26324.ece
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
kinnera wrote:Rashmun wrote:kinnera wrote:Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.
I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.
At the time the Rig Veda was written there were only a few coconut tree climbing tribals in SI. Of course later on a galaxy of thinkers emerged from SI who contributed to the development of Hindu philosophy and religion. Synthesis does not mean telling lies. Any symthesis must be on the basis of truth.
If you understood the Upanishads, you won't be talking abt north india and south india. Petty minds can only think pettily and talk pettily.
The fact that the Upanisads were composed in the region in and around UP is a well accepted fact. If my stating it pains you then i cannot help it. Next you will say i should not be saying that Adi Sankara was a malayali, Ramanujacharya was a tamil, Madhavacharya was a Kannadiga, Vallabhacharya was a telugu.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:@ rashmun. here is one discovery that indicates harrapan and post harrapan civ. extended to the south. in the last few years there have been many such discoveries. if post harrapan civ. extended to the southernmost tip of gujarat, there is no logical reason to believe why it would not stretch even further south. lothal also serves to remind us that the civilization was not confined to the indo-gangetic plains and ports were preferred, of which many were available in the south. the lack of a serious excavation effort is the problem (and this problem will not go away for whatever excavation was done was done largely by motivated colonials and we lack the motivation). that the south was uninhabited in vedic times is nonsense.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/symbols-akin-to-indus-valley-culture-discovered-in-kerala/article26324.ece
this is very interesting. thanks for sharing the link. All kinds of possibilities are possible though. It could be that minor settlements of IVC extended to SI. Or it could be that these evidences of IVC in SI are indicative of a flight of the IVC people to the deep south after the militarily stronger Aryans forced them to do so.
The IVC people did not know sanskrit though. In fact there is one claim (which i difficult to believe) that the IVC people were illiterate. See here:
http://www.safarmer.com/washstate.pdf
What the article at the link i give is saying is that the IVC script (on the seals, etc.) is not a language and this is acceptable. But i find it difficult to accept the fact that they had no written language at all. Perhaps they were writing on perishable material.
From the evidence i have seen though i believe the IVC people were distinct from the Aryan people.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
they did. IVC covers a long time span. vedic culture developed very late, viz. in the last phase of IVC. as romila thapar opined, the IVC people were bi or multilingual.Rashmun wrote:The IVC people did not know sanskrit though.
yes, there is a theory that the seals denote a mercantile language like landa scripts which is still extant in punjab and other regions.What the article at the link i give is saying is that the IVC script (on the seals, etc.) is not a language and this is acceptable.
no no. i don't know what evidence you have seen. i recall that some genetic study had established that people of IVC were of the same race as that that exists in those parts today. as for them not being aryans, they were indistinguishable from the aryans. i say this because we don't know anything about aryan culture or racial features (a lot of theories abound though). the culture of IVC was distinctly vedic (read aryan): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cemetery_H_cultureFrom the evidence i have seen though i believe the IVC people were distinct from the Aryan people.
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
HK, please take a look at this:
http://safarmer.com/frontline/
Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).
http://safarmer.com/frontline/
Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
i read it -- skipped few parts.Rashmun wrote:HK, please take a look at this:
http://safarmer.com/frontline/
Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).
see, i do not disagree with witzel and farmer. they are absolutely right. here are my points:
- i do not deny there once were aryans and that they came to india from outside. they also introduced the horse to india and also sanskrit (not as we know sanskrit to be though).
- i have taken care to stress on "post harrapa" in my posts. the cemetry H culture is POST harappa. IVC was declining and the inhabitants had started moving inland. the aryans, who were already in contact with the IVC people, followed the IVC people to cemetery H areas and settled with them. vedic culture was born from this mixing. cemetery H's language was multilingual. rajaram ascribes this event (the mixing) to the mature harappan stage -- rajaram is wrong and has a hindutva agenda. actually rajaram ascribes everthing sanskrit and vedic to IVC or mature harrapan and denies the existence of aryans -- he is obviously wrong. the fusion between the aryans and the IVC people happened much later in cemetery H (in full bloom for it was already happening earlier in snatches which bring me to my next point).
- as the authors note, 4% of the rig veda (considered the unadulterated sanskrit of purely foreign origin) has 4% loan words from a punjabi language that has an affinity with munda. so even the rig veda is corrupted by local languages. it goes to show that what followed, sanskrit and the vedas and the upanishads, were a collaborative effort of the post harrapans and aryans. it is wrong to give any one of them sole authorship over it.
- racially too the aryans and IVC people are indistinguishable. as i said earlier, a genetic study confirmed that the IVC people and the people inhabiting the IVC region today are of the same stock (i will have to find the link). if this is true, then please take me to pakistan and punjab and haryana and show me who the aryans are and who the IVC people? if they have intermingled, did not this intermingling take place in harappan times or is it that there was never an intermingling but an exchange of culture, ideas, language and commerce?
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Rashmun wrote:From the evidence i have seen though i believe the IVC people were distinct from the Aryan people.
please tell me what this ^ evidence tells you? that he is aryan or non-aryan? how?
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Re: Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i read it -- skipped few parts.Rashmun wrote:HK, please take a look at this:
http://safarmer.com/frontline/
Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).
see, i do not disagree with witzel and farmer. they are absolutely right. here are my points:
- i do not deny there once were aryans and that they came to india from outside. they also introduced the horse to india and also sanskrit (not as we know sanskrit to be though).
- i have taken care to stress on "post harrapa" in my posts. the cemetry H culture is POST harappa. IVC was declining and the inhabitants had started moving inland. the aryans, who were already in contact with the IVC people, followed the IVC people to cemetery H areas and settled with them. vedic culture was born from this mixing. cemetery H's language was multilingual. rajaram ascribes this event (the mixing) to the mature harappan stage -- rajaram is wrong and has a hindutva agenda. actually rajaram ascribes everthing sanskrit and vedic to IVC or mature harrapan and denies the existence of aryans -- he is obviously wrong. the fusion between the aryans and the IVC people happened much later in cemetery H (in full bloom for it was already happening earlier in snatches which bring me to my next point).
- as the authors note, 4% of the rig veda (considered the unadulterated sanskrit of purely foreign origin) has 4% loan words from a punjabi language that has an affinity with munda. so even the rig veda is corrupted by local languages. it goes to show that what followed, sanskrit and the vedas and the upanishads, were a collaborative effort of the post harrapans and aryans. it is wrong to give any one of them sole authorship over it.
- racially too the aryans and IVC people are indistinguishable. as i said earlier, a genetic study confirmed that the IVC people and the people inhabiting the IVC region today are of the same stock (i will have to find the link). if this is true, then please take me to pakistan and punjab and haryana and show me who the aryans are and who the IVC people? if they have intermingled, did not this intermingling take place in harappan times or is it that there was never an intermingling but an exchange of culture, ideas, language and commerce?
1. i am not denying that intermingling of IVC people with Aryans took place but it was not an intermingling of equals from whatever i have been able to make out. The IVC people were always subservient to the Aryan people. I know i should give evidence for this but i do not have the material at my disposal right now. It has been argued that the mathematical material (related to geometry) in the Sulva Sutras originates in the IVC even though this text is regarded a Vedic text.
2. I am not so sure about race as you. The sanskrit word varna means color and it also means caste. That is to say, the caste based hierarchy came up on the basis of skin color with fair complexioned aryans at the top of the hierarchy and dark complexioned dravidians at the bottom. that is why even today high caste hindus, on average, will be more fair complexioned than low caste hindus. this is not to deny that there are high caste hindus who are dark complexioned or low caste hindus who are fair (because of inter marriages).
3. The genetic studies so far have been very controversial and not widely accepted. Witzel has written a critique of the recent genetic study of Lalji Singh et al.
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