india vs italy

by truthbetold Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:28 am

no. it is not tennis match. Italy 's refusal to send back the marines forced supreme court to restrain envoy from leaving the country. difficult case and really bad diplomatic jam.

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:00 am

Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

by southindian Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:24 am

truthbetold wrote:no. it is not tennis match. Italy 's refusal to send back the marines forced supreme court to restrain envoy from leaving the country. difficult case and really bad diplomatic jam.

India is a wuss country and I guess now everyone knows this. They have also discovered that laws don't work in India and can be easily twisted.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:18 am

Maria S wrote:Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

The problem is - our super-secular bleeding-heart politicians won't allow the Seals to do their job. Instead, the Seals will become guards for VVVVVIPs and their families. The Italian govt. obviously knows this and they are quietly chuckling at how excessively generous our ministers and judges are. I'm sure, our own extremely brilliant SU-CH scholars commend the judge and the law minister for understanding the pain of the Italian Naval officers. Very Happy

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:52 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Maria S wrote:Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

The problem is - our super-secular bleeding-heart politicians won't allow the Seals to do their job. Instead, the Seals will become guards for VVVVVIPs and their families. The Italian govt. obviously knows this and they are quietly chuckling at how excessively generous our ministers and judges are. I'm sure, our own extremely brilliant SU-CH scholars commend the judge and the law minister for understanding the pain of the Italian Naval officers.

Mr. S,

Seriously, with the violation of the Court Order, it would be quite appropriate and amazing if the Indian Special Forces (?) can pull this off.

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:08 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:I'm sure, our own extremely brilliant SU-CH scholars commend the judge and the law minister for understanding the pain of the Italian Naval officers.

Guruvu-gaaru, if you are sure, then it must be true.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Maria S wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Maria S wrote:Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

The problem is - our super-secular bleeding-heart politicians won't allow the Seals to do their job. Instead, the Seals will become guards for VVVVVIPs and their families. The Italian govt. obviously knows this and they are quietly chuckling at how excessively generous our ministers and judges are. I'm sure, our own extremely brilliant SU-CH scholars commend the judge and the law minister for understanding the pain of the Italian Naval officers.

Mr. S,

Seriously, with the violation of the Court Order, it would be quite appropriate and amazing if the Indian Special Forces (?) can pull this off.

The SC court order is, in reality, a difficult one to swallow for the Indian govt. According to the Geneva convention, apparently, diplomatic immunity supersedes any court orders of the host country (unless the country of the diplomat waives immunity). So, if the ambassador decided to catch a flight and flee, India on one hand has the obligation to follow the SC order and restrain him and on the other, needs to honor the Geneva convention (in the interest of its own diplomats working across the globe). The whole issue could have been avoided if the SC refused to accept the "undertaking" (unenforceable) by the Ambassador and if the Indian law ministry did its home work before becoming so generous in supporting the Italian undertaking. Vadra knew what he was saying when he spoke about the banana republic!

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:10 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:The whole issue could have been avoided if the SC refused to accept the "undertaking" (unenforceable) by the Ambassador and if the Indian law ministry did its home work before becoming so generous in supporting the Italian undertaking.

That is the heart of the matter. But now that the SC has issued another order restraining the ambassador from leaving, MEA will probably declare him persona non grata, which automatically relieves him of his duties as ambassador, therefore letting the person leave the country without violating the SC order. Or the government acquires some balls, orders all Indian embassy and consulate staff in Italy to catch the next train to Switzerland, and actually restrains the ambassador in violation of all diplomatic standards. I don't think Germany, France, and the UK will support the stupid Italians against India if India decides make a fight of it. But I don't think this government will engage in such a fight; if they were inclined to fight, they wouldn't have let the Italians leave in the first place!

by Rishi Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:11 pm

Sajan and Idicula also note that the issue in Italy is not the deaths of the fishermen, but “why should two fishermen matter so much in a country where thousands of children are dying of starvation?”

The duo believe that this is a case of “sophisticated” racism. We agree.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/behind-the-italian-betrayal-a-case-of-sophisticated-racism-660560.html

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:18 pm

Rishi wrote:Sajan and Idicula also note that the issue in Italy is not the deaths of the fishermen, but “why should two fishermen matter so much in a country where thousands of children are dying of starvation?”

The duo believe that this is a case of “sophisticated” racism. We agree.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/behind-the-italian-betrayal-a-case-of-sophisticated-racism-660560.html

That is a stupid argument. Murder is a crime, regardless of how many people die of other causes. If this is the argument that the Italian public is buying, that would explain to me why that country elects jokers like Berlusconi.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:29 pm

yeah totally agree. they fully deserve berlusconi. enrico fermi was probably the last admirable guy to emerge from that country. it has been downhill since then.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:30 pm

wonder why they don't just expel the ambassador and call it quits for diplomatic relations until they play ball. i mean what does india have to lose? how much trade do they do with italy anyway? is it really going to hurt?

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:32 pm

trofimov wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:The whole issue could have been avoided if the SC refused to accept the "undertaking" (unenforceable) by the Ambassador and if the Indian law ministry did its home work before becoming so generous in supporting the Italian undertaking.
That is the heart of the matter. But now that the SC has issued another order restraining the ambassador from leaving, MEA will probably declare him persona non grata, which automatically relieves him of his duties as ambassador, therefore letting the person leave the country without violating the SC order. Or the government acquires some balls, orders all Indian embassy and consulate staff in Italy to catch the next train to Switzerland, and actually restrains the ambassador in violation of all diplomatic standards. I don't think Germany, France, and the UK will support the stupid Italians against India if India decides make a fight of it. But I don't think this government will engage in such a fight; if they were inclined to fight, they wouldn't have let the Italians leave in the first place!

Yeah. Apparently, the PMO is thinking along the "persona non grata" line. I'm not sure they will follow through.

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:48 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:wonder why they don't just expel the ambassador and call it quits for diplomatic relations until they play ball. i mean what does india have to lose? how much trade do they do with italy anyway? is it really going to hurt?

Yeah, that may be the route the government actually takes. Their own neighbors don't take the Italians seriously, and for very good reasons. So I don't see any reason India ought to be worried about snapping all diplomatic ties, and asking Italy to close its embassies and consulates until they return the marines for due process in an Indian court. When we visited Rome, at least a quarter of the tourists at the popular attractions were Indian. Some Indian companies that do business in Italy will howl and scream, but their Italian counterparts can take the matter up with Rome and get the marines back on a plane to India.

If India let's this go without contest, we will be treated just as seriously by our neighbors as Italy is treated by its.

by Rishi Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:02 pm

On 18 January, the Supreme Court ruled the Kerala government, which had originally arrested the marines, had no jurisdiction given the nature of the alleged crime. As such, it directed the Union government to set up a special court in consultation with the Chief Justice of India and push for an expeditious trial. This was only fair. Indians are used to long-drawn court battles, but given the profile of the case, the Italians and the world community could not be expected to wait forever. A special court and a fast-track trial were deemed necessary.

However, the government did not move. It did not protest, raise an objection or suggest hard counter-guarantees from the Italian Embassy when the Supreme Court heard a petition by the marines asking they be allowed to go home and vote. In the virtual absence of an argument from the prosecution — representing the UPA government, as the Kerala government had been told it had no jurisdiction — the Supreme Court allowed the marines to go home on very easy terms.

As such, those who now say the Italian government has betrayed the Supreme Court have a point. Nevertheless, by acts of omission at least, the UPA government facilitated that betrayal. This is a key point and will continue to haunt the Congress.

http://tehelka.com/by-acts-of-omission-the-upa-has-facilitated-italys-betrayal-of-our-supreme-court/

by Uppili Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:06 am

Maria S wrote:Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

I think this must be the joke of the year.

I did not know that you had this much sense of humor....

by Kris Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:31 am

truthbetold wrote:no. it is not tennis match. Italy 's refusal to send back the marines forced supreme court to restrain envoy from leaving the country. difficult case and really bad diplomatic jam.

>>> It is extreme naivete or behind-the-scenes shenanigans that got the italians off the hook. If India wants to be respected at this pint, it has to pretty much tell italy that it will sever diplomatic relations if those guys are not sent to stand trial. If it doesn't, it will be seen as a lightweight that can be easily pushed around. I hope india surprises us by showing us it has huevos.

by Kris Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:04 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
trofimov wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:The whole issue could have been avoided if the SC refused to accept the "undertaking" (unenforceable) by the Ambassador and if the Indian law ministry did its home work before becoming so generous in supporting the Italian undertaking.
That is the heart of the matter. But now that the SC has issued another order restraining the ambassador from leaving, MEA will probably declare him persona non grata, which automatically relieves him of his duties as ambassador, therefore letting the person leave the country without violating the SC order. Or the government acquires some balls, orders all Indian embassy and consulate staff in Italy to catch the next train to Switzerland, and actually restrains the ambassador in violation of all diplomatic standards. I don't think Germany, France, and the UK will support the stupid Italians against India if India decides make a fight of it. But I don't think this government will engage in such a fight; if they were inclined to fight, they wouldn't have let the Italians leave in the first place!

Yeah. Apparently, the PMO is thinking along the "persona non grata" line. I'm not sure they will follow through.

>>>They would pretty much have to at this point. Not allowing the envoy to go back is a serious breach of diplomatc conventions. At the same time, not doing anything would make the country look like a toothless tiger. India needs to raise a stink and Italy wil come around. India is a big market. It needs to start behaving like a powerful economy.

by truthbetold Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:13 am

once marines were out of India , it lost the battle. Italian behaviour, while not exemplary, should have been expected. in fact supreme court did. that is why they asked for envoy's commitment. Italy put India down as another Libya and decided to thumb its nose . India cannot stop the diplomat if he pushes his diplomatic immunity. going forward in that direction is utter stupidity. India will be isolated in western opinion.
Indian govt's inept handling was compounded by supreme court over expansive view of its own influence.
this incident reinforces the following:
manmohan singh govt is incapable of seeing beyond its nose.
India is not in the same league as China and Japan in European view.
a bird in hand .... you know the rest.
shameful incident that will hurt India like the hijacker release in early 2000s.

by Maria S Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:44 am

Uppili wrote:
Maria S wrote:Assume India also has Special operation forces like the SEAL teams. May be they can nab them and bring them back:)

I think this must be the joke of the year.

I did not know that you had this much sense of humor....

Saringa U..delighted to know you are finally beginning to get my sense of humor just after 10 years? 20 years? I think that is excellent progress, we are making excellent progress:-)

Seriously, in the meantime..looks like Srilanka, Pakistan, you name it..seem to be "nabbing" our Indian fishermen whenever they can..and no one cares..you may have seen this theme in social media "for 10 kilos of fish".. (it sounds better in tamil!)

இங்கே இத்தாலியைதிட்டும் ஒவ்வொரு இந்தியனும் கொஞ்சம் யோசிங்க! தன் பிரஜைக்கு (இத்தனைக்கும் அவர்கள் ஒன்றும் எம்பியோ மந்திரிகளோ இல்லை.. சாதாரண மாலுமிகள்) வெளிநாட்டில் ஒரு க்‌ஷ்டம் என்றால் அது அமெரிக்காவோ, இத்தாலியோ எம்புட்டு ரிஸ்க் எடுத்து தில்லாலடிங்கடி வேலை மூலமாகவது அவர்களை தங்கள் நாட்டுக்கு வரவைத்து அரவணைக்க முயற்சிக்கிறார்களே . . . நம் நாடு மாதிரி அடுத்தவன் பத்து கிலோ மீனுக்காக சுட்டாக்கூட ... மூடிக்கிட்டு இருக்காம... யோசிங்க மக்கா!

(Every Indian who is upset with Italy..has to think about how the US and Italy take care of their citizens..whatever risks and "thillalangadi" (mischief?) it takes to embrace them..our nation will look the other way even if someone shoots our people for 10 kilos of fish..think about that).

by southindian Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:56 am

truthbetold wrote:once marines were out of India , it lost the battle. Italian behaviour, while not exemplary, should have been expected. in fact supreme court did. that is why they asked for envoy's commitment. Italy put India down as another Libya and decided to thumb its nose . India cannot stop the diplomat if he pushes his diplomatic immunity. going forward in that direction is utter stupidity. India will be isolated in western opinion.
Indian govt's inept handling was compounded by supreme court over expansive view of its own influence.
this incident reinforces the following:
manmohan singh govt is incapable of seeing beyond its nose.
India is not in the same league as China and Japan in European view.
a bird in hand .... you know the rest.
shameful incident that will hurt India like the hijacker release in early 2000s.

Good observation TBT. This is a great political point for BJP in 2014 against UPA if marines don't come back. If Congress realizes this, it may prompt Sonia to speak more Italian on phone in bringing them back. Congress may even take this as hint and not bring up hijack issue for political benefit in 2014.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:59 pm

NEW DELHI: In what appears to be a softening of stance, the government is considering a proposal submitted by Italy that seeks a "consensual solution" to the issue of the two Italian marines facing murder charges in India. Senior government officials have told ET that the country's top security establishment and the home ministry are studying the Italian government's proposal.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/pm-narendra-modi-government-goes-soft-in-italian-marines-case/articleshow/44807782.cms

But the BJP government has strangely chosen not to oppose this decision this time. The contrast is jarring especially since they had kicked up a major storm lambasting the Congress government and questionning Sonia Gandhi's background and intentions when the previous government had sent the marines home during their tenure.

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/italian-marine-allowed-go-home-why-modi-silent-now-609019

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