Max/Blabberwock

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:47 pm

isn't this exactly the same as what happens in Avani Avittam?

-----------

Jandhyam Poornima

Jandhyam is Sanskrit for sacred thread, and Poornima denotes the full moon in Sanskrit.^[32]^[33]^[34]

The people of the Kumaon region of Uttarakhand, celebrate Raksha Bandhan and Janopunyu(जन्यो पुन्यु) on the Shravani Purnima, it is a day on which people change their janeu जनेयु or जन्यो (sacred thread). On this day, the famous Bagwal fair is held at Devidhura in district Champawat. Punyu in Kumauni means Purnima or full moon it is the purnima in which the sacred thread Janeu or Janyo
is ceremonially changed. The Raksha Bandhan celebrations are similar
all across North India. The thread changing ceremony is done all over
India.^[35]^[36]^[37]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raksha_Bandhan

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:57 pm

Janopunyu (JP) sounds similar to Avani Avittam (AA) but the above merely states that BOTH Raksha Bandhan (RB) and Janopunyu are celebrated on the same day.

How does that imply that JP or AA = RB?

JP in the Kumaon region and AA happens on the same day as RB. Nothing more, nothing less. Thread changing ceremony is not the same as RB - RB is doing something to protect one's brother. Chalk and cheese.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:00 pm

blabberwock wrote:Janopunyu (JP) sounds similar to Avani Avittam (AA) but the above merely states that BOTH Raksha Bandhan (RB) and Janopunyu are celebrated on the same day.

How does that imply that JP or AA = RB?

JP in the Kumaon region and AA happens on the same day as RB. Nothing more, nothing less. Thread changing ceremony is not the same as RB - RB is doing something to protect one's brother. Chalk and cheese.

Both have calcium and both are white. So, by Rashmun method of induction, they are one and the same just as Avani Avittam and RB.

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:08 pm

blabberwock wrote:Janopunyu (JP) sounds similar to Avani Avittam (AA) but the above merely states that BOTH Raksha Bandhan (RB) and Janopunyu are celebrated on the same day.

How does that imply that JP or AA = RB?

JP in the Kumaon region and AA happens on the same day as RB. Nothing more, nothing less. Thread changing ceremony is not the same as RB - RB is doing something to protect one's brother. Chalk and cheese.

--> i want you to focus on the fact that Avani Avittam is being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu on the same day as Raksha Bandhan. From the wikipedia article which i gave earlier:

The people of the Kumaon region of Uttarakhand, celebrate Raksha Bandhan and Janopunyu(जन्यो पुन्यु) on the Shravani Purnima, it is a day on which people change their janeu जनेयु or जन्यो (sacred thread).

-------

Avani Avittam (Tamil: ஆவணி அவிட்டம்) refers to the day corresponding to the Śravishthā nakshatra ("Avittam" in Tamil) of the Śrāvana month ("Avani" in Tamil) of the Hindu calendar when Brahmins ritually change their YajñopavītamSrauta "upakarma" rituals. ("Poonool" in Tamil/Malayalam) every year accompanied by relevant The day, also called Śrāvana Pūrnima^[1] (full moon day of the Śrāvana month) in other parts of India, usually occurs the day after the Śravana nakshatra (which marks the Onam festival of Kerala). The next day, usually coinciding with the raksha bandhan festival in northern and central India, the Gayatri Mantra is recited 1008 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaakarma

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:

--> i want you to focus on the fact that Avani Avittam is being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu on the same day as Raksha Bandhan.

this is what is called changing the goal post.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:19 pm

[quote="Rashmun"]

--> i want you to focus on the fact that Avani Avittam is being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu on the same day as Raksha Bandhan. From the wikipedia article which i gave earlier:

You just repeated what MAX, BW, and I have been saying all this time - except you don't even realize that (there lies the tragedy).

YES..they are totally different and JUST CELEBRATED IN THE SAME DAY.

Now go about claiming that this was your interpretation right from the beginning.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:24 pm

your old claim: A (in the north) and C (in TN) are celebrated
on the same day; therefore A=C

then it was pointed out to you that they just
happen on the same day.

your intermediate claim: A and B (in the north) and C (in TN)
happen on the same day. it seems to be that B=C;
thus A=B=C

then it was pointed out to you that A=B was not yet established.

your reaction to that: focus on B=C.

but excuse me, that's not what we objected to in the first place!

get back to googling boy. now.

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:26 pm

Rashmun wrote:

--> i want you to focus on the fact that Avani Avittam is being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu on the same day as Raksha Bandhan. From the wikipedia article which i gave earlier:

I focused on that - all I see is that wearing a sacred thread and having a ceremony to change it is a Brahminical practice and likely exists across India among the Brahmins. What's new or revealing about this?

How is this in any way connected to RB or TN celebrating RB?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:31 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your old claim: A (in the north) and C (in TN) are celebrated
on the same day; therefore A=C

then it was pointed out to you that they just
happen on the same day.

your intermediate claim: A and B (in the north) and C (in TN)
happen on the same day. it seems to be that B=C;
thus A=B=C

then it was pointed out to you that A=B was not yet established.

your reaction to that: focus on B=C.

but excuse me, that's not what we objected to in the first place!

get back to googling boy. now.

Are you trying to prove him a point or teaching him 5th grade logic ?

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your old claim: A (in the north) and C (in TN) are celebrated
on the same day; therefore A=C

then it was pointed out to you that they just
happen on the same day.

your intermediate claim: A and B (in the north) and C (in TN)
happen on the same day. it seems to be that B=C;
thus A=B=C

then it was pointed out to you that A=B was not yet established.

your reaction to that: focus on B=C.

but excuse me, that's not what we objected to in the first place!

get back to googling boy. now.

--> Max, stop behaving like an idiot. this is a new thread and i am only pointing out that Avani Avittam is evidently being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu. I am not making any other claim in this thread.

--> Furthermore, i had made the earlier claim of Raksha Bandhan being celebrated in Tamil Nadu under the name Avani Avittam based on what i read in some internet articles. These included an article by the famous Swami Sivananda, who was himself a tamilian. I am prepared to accept your argument about why Sivananda stated Avani Avittam is the same as Raksha Bandhan.

--> Avani Avittam is evidently also celebrated in Nepal (under a different name of course):

In Nepal, Raksha Bandhan is celebrated on shravan purnima. It is also
called Janai Purnima (Janai is sacred thread and purnima means full
moon). Janai is changed in this day, in Brahmins and kshetry's family. A
sacred thread is tied on hand by senior family members and relatives.
Nepalese people enjoy this festival eating its special food "Kwati", a
soup of sprout of seven different grains.^[24]^[25]^[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raksha_Bandhan

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:46 pm

blabberwock wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> i want you to focus on the fact that Avani Avittam is being celebrated in Kumaon under the name of Janopunyu on the same day as Raksha Bandhan. From the wikipedia article which i gave earlier:

I focused on that - all I see is that wearing a sacred thread and having a ceremony to change it is a Brahminical practice and likely exists across India among the Brahmins. What's new or revealing about this?

How is this in any way connected to RB or TN celebrating RB?

--> because changing the sacred thread on that particular day does not seem to be taking place all across India.

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:47 pm

Rashmun wrote:

--> because changing the sacred thread on that particular day does not seem to be taking place all across India.

When do the rest of India change their threads?

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:49 pm

blabberwock wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> because changing the sacred thread on that particular day does not seem to be taking place all across India.

When do the rest of India change their threads?

--> it can be changed any time one wishes to, of course. but the specific ritual changing of the sacred thread on that particular day does not seem to be taking place all over India.

by Guest Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:52 pm

Never mind - I found this wiki article on the Upakarma elaborating the date chosen by various brahmins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upakarma

Different sects of people have different dates on which upakarma is performed. Traditional learners of Yajurveda observe the Yajur upakarma in the month of Shraavana (August–September), on the full moon day [2]; more particularly, Yajur upakarma is held on the full-moon day that comes before the new-moon day of the month of Sravana (Avani). Rig Vedic
Upakarma is observed on the day in/on sukla paksha Shravan month which
has Shravana nakshatra.Rig Vedic brahmins change the sacred thread on
the day,whether purnima is there or not.Shukla Yajurvedic bramhins of North India&Orissa do upaakarma in the preveous day if Purnima spans two days(shukla chaturdashi yukta Purnima). Sama Vedic Upakarma is observed on the day after Shravan Amavasyai,Hastha nakshatra such that they do the Gayatri japam on Ganesh Chaturt

It seems to me that this Raksha Bandhan is something that was declared to be done on the same day as the Upakarma day for some sects. What came first - Upakarma or RB?

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:02 am

blabberwock wrote:Never mind - I found this wiki article on the Upakarma elaborating the date chosen by various brahmins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upakarma

Different sects of people have different dates on which upakarma is performed. Traditional learners of Yajurveda observe the Yajur upakarma in the month of Shraavana (August–September), on the full moon day [2]; more particularly, Yajur upakarma is held on the full-moon day that comes before the new-moon day of the month of Sravana (Avani). Rig Vedic
Upakarma is observed on the day in/on sukla paksha Shravan month which
has Shravana nakshatra.Rig Vedic brahmins change the sacred thread on
the day,whether purnima is there or not.Shukla Yajurvedic bramhins of North India&Orissa do upaakarma in the preveous day if Purnima spans two days(shukla chaturdashi yukta Purnima). Sama Vedic Upakarma is observed on the day after Shravan Amavasyai,Hastha nakshatra such that they do the Gayatri japam on Ganesh Chaturt

It seems to me that this Raksha Bandhan is something that was declared to be done on the same day as the Upakarma day for some sects. What came first - Upakarma or RB?

--> it still seems to be more of a south indian thing. for instance:

Upakarma is a ritual associated with Hindu Brahmin community especially
in South India and it is the day the sacred thread worn by Brahmins
known as ‘Yagnopavitam’ is changed.

http://www.hindu-blog.com/2011/08/upakarma-august-2011.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:09 am

Rashmun wrote:

--> it still seems to be more of a south indian thing. for instance:

Upakarma is a ritual associated with Hindu Brahmin community especially
in South India and it is the day the sacred thread worn by Brahmins
known as ‘Yagnopavitam’ is changed.

http://www.hindu-blog.com/2011/08/upakarma-august-2011.html

what do you think we have been saying all along ? You are now hijacking the whole thing and slowly making it sound as though you "discovered" this fact just now and that we were all saying the opposite.

It is getting too tired. Stop playing this switcharoo game and start playing some other game.

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:15 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> it still seems to be more of a south indian thing. for instance:

Upakarma is a ritual associated with Hindu Brahmin community especially
in South India and it is the day the sacred thread worn by Brahmins
known as ‘Yagnopavitam’ is changed.

http://www.hindu-blog.com/2011/08/upakarma-august-2011.html

what do you think we have been saying all along ? You are now hijacking the whole thing and slowly making it sound as though you "discovered" this fact just now and that we were all saying the opposite.

It is getting too tired. Stop playing this switcharoo game and start playing some other game.

--> even though it is more of a south indian thing, Avani Avittam is still celebrated in at least Kumaon and also in Nepal (perhaps also in other places).

by charvaka Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:26 am

I am disappointed Korea does not figure in this thread.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:23 am

Rashmun wrote:

It is getting too tired. Stop playing this switcharoo game and start playing some other game.

--> even though it is more of a south indian thing, Avani Avittam is still celebrated in at least Kumaon and also in Nepal (perhaps also in other places).[/quote]

Since you are executing your established rashmun method of diverting form the original issue, let me remind everyone that:

Rashmun's original claim was that Raksha Bandhan and Avani Avittam are celebrated on the same day and hence they are both one and the same.

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:02 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

It is getting too tired. Stop playing this switcharoo game and start playing some other game.

--> even though it is more of a south indian thing, Avani Avittam is still celebrated in at least Kumaon and also in Nepal (perhaps also in other places).

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Since you are executing your established rashmun method of diverting form the original issue, let me remind everyone that:

Rashmun's original claim was that Raksha Bandhan and Avani Avittam are celebrated on the same day and hence they are both one and the same.

--> The words in orange font are Uppili's, not mine. Dishonest Uppili sees it fit to represent his words as my words and then respond to his own words written earlier.

--> I had given links to internet articles which said that Raksha Bandhan and Avani Avittam are the same. These included the link to an article by the great Swami Sivananda, himself a tamilian.

--> This is now a new thread. In this thread i am saying that Avani Avittam is celebrated in some parts of North India under a different name.

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:40 am

Rashmun:

1. The calendars followed across india are different and therefore sravana poornima does not fall on the same day for all the various states. Upakarma is done on Sravana pournami in Andhra. I believe this is a common practice for all brahmins across the country but it is done on different days based on their calendars. Sravana pournami (acc to the chaandramaana which is observed in Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra) coincides with raksha bandhan. Nothing more to it.

2. Your claim that the sacred thread can be changed on any day is completely wrong. There are rules around when you can change the yajnopavitam, when you necessarily have to change it etc. Not sure where you are getting your information from.

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:46 am

nutmeg wrote:Rashmun:

1. The calendars followed across india are different and therefore sravana poornima does not fall on the same day for all the various states. Upakarma is done on Sravana pournami in Andhra. I believe this is a common practice for all brahmins across the country but it is done on different days based on their calendars. Sravana pournami (acc to the chaandramaana which is observed in Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra) coincides with raksha bandhan. Nothing more to it.

2. Your claim that the sacred thread can be changed on any day is completely wrong. There are rules around when you can change the yajnopavitam, when you necessarily have to change it etc. Not sure where you are getting your information from.

--> what if the sacred thread breaks or gets lost somehow or becomes dirty. can it not be replaced immediately without the need for performing any ritual?

by Guest Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:50 am

even then you have to perform a ritual. you can j/ throw it away and don a new one.

by indophile Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:02 am

nutmeg wrote:even then to perform a ritual. you can j/ throw it away and don a new one.

Sacred thread can be replaced with a new one changed on any day during the year (it's broken or otherwise damaged). However, you just don't throw away the old one and don a new one. However, there is a ritual (a few mantras are recited) associated with both visarjana (discarding) and dhaarana (wearing the new one).
Also, even if you changed and have a brand new one on the day before the sraavana poornima, you must still discard it and change to new one on that day.

by Guest Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:06 am

indophile wrote:
nutmeg wrote:even then to perform a ritual. you can j/ throw it away and don a new one.

Sacred thread can be replaced with a new one changed on any day during the year (it's broken or otherwise damaged). However, you just don't throw away the old one and don a new one. However, there is a ritual (a few mantras are recited) associated with both visarjana (discarding) and dhaarana (wearing the new one).
Also, even if you changed and have a brand new one on the day before the sraavana poornima, you must still discard it and change to new one on that day.

I meant you "cant" just throw away. Embarassed

by Propagandhi711 Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:35 am

charvaka wrote:I am disappointed Korea does not figure in this thread.

why? did they give up on eating dog and start importing rajnikantam movies?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:05 am

Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

It is getting too tired. Stop playing this switcharoo game and start playing some other game.

--> even though it is more of a south indian thing, Avani Avittam is still celebrated in at least Kumaon and also in Nepal (perhaps also in other places).

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Since you are executing your established rashmun method of diverting form the original issue, let me remind everyone that:

Rashmun's original claim was that Raksha Bandhan and Avani Avittam are celebrated on the same day and hence they are both one and the same.

--> The words in orange font are Uppili's, not mine. Dishonest Uppili sees it fit to represent his words as my words and then respond to his own words written earlier.

--> I had given links to internet articles which said that Raksha Bandhan and Avani Avittam are the same. These included the link to an article by the great Swami Sivananda, himself a tamilian.

--> This is now a new thread. In this thread i am saying that Avani Avittam is celebrated in some parts of North India under a different name.

We always knew you were very consistent. O' Brahmin, as the superiorest caste, you are entitled to adapt any website view as your view of the day.

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