swapna wrote:this is unusual because most western magazines avoid publishing photos of people defecating, and of mangled corpses. see the picture and the well-written article, including statistics, here:

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21607837-fixing-dreadful-sanitation-india-requires-not-just-building-lavatories-also-changing

the boys appear to be shitting curbside, close to houses and shops, in some northindian town. I wonder if the hindi poster is urging southern indians to learn and speak hindi, even as northpeepals shit on mother india.

note the pigs, the trash strewn about, and the stagnant pools of water, which will form a deadly combination with the feces, near the boys' open toilet. 

hundreds of millions of indians perform this deed every day, especially across the vast and dusty indo-gangetic plains, with increasing density of open defecation (see the map in the article).

congratulations to narenbhai and his government for confronting this horrible problem and taking steps.to solve.it.

silvermani wrote:The problem is people's attitude, not poverty. My uncle has been on a social service binge for the past 10 years or so, constructing a school, hospital, drinking water filtration facility, dredging the local lake, etc in his village. He wanted to root out open defecation in the village so he offered a commode and other needed materials to every household that didn't have a toilet and wanted to build one. People would take these materials and then sell them instead of actually using them. You cannot "develop"people that don't want development.

goodcitizn wrote:

silvermani wrote:The problem is people's attitude, not poverty. My uncle has been on a social service binge for the past 10 years or so, constructing a school, hospital, drinking water filtration facility, dredging the local lake, etc in his village. He wanted to root out open defecation in the village so he offered a commode and other needed materials to every household that didn't have a toilet and wanted to build one. People would take these materials and then sell them instead of actually using them. You cannot "develop"people that don't want development.

This is not an easy problem to solve. Teaching these uneducated, poor villagers the value of hygiene won't work. Some kind of scare tactic is required like catching AIDS or leprosy if one defecates in public places. Or, a trained SWAT team of bandicoot rats to bite them in the ass when they take a dump. Saamiyar might have better ideas.

silvermani wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

silvermani wrote:The problem is people's attitude, not poverty. My uncle has been on a social service binge for the past 10 years or so, constructing a school, hospital, drinking water filtration facility, dredging the local lake, etc in his village. He wanted to root out open defecation in the village so he offered a commode and other needed materials to every household that didn't have a toilet and wanted to build one. People would take these materials and then sell them instead of actually using them. You cannot "develop"people that don't want development.

This is not an easy problem to solve. Teaching these uneducated, poor villagers the value of hygiene won't work. Some kind of scare tactic is required like catching AIDS or leprosy if one defecates in public places. Or, a trained SWAT team of bandicoot rats to bite them in the ass when they take a dump. Saamiyar might have better ideas.

haha, that sounds like a good plan!

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:this is unusual because most western magazines avoid publishing photos of people defecating, and of mangled corpses. see the picture and the well-written article, including statistics, here:

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21607837-fixing-dreadful-sanitation-india-requires-not-just-building-lavatories-also-changing

the boys appear to be shitting curbside, close to houses and shops, in some northindian town. I wonder if the hindi poster is urging southern indians to learn and speak hindi, even as northpeepals shit on mother india.

note the pigs, the trash strewn about, and the stagnant pools of water, which will form a deadly combination with the feces, near the boys' open toilet. 

hundreds of millions of indians perform this deed every day, especially across the vast and dusty indo-gangetic plains, with increasing density of open defecation (see the map in the article).

congratulations to narenbhai and his government for confronting this horrible problem and taking steps.to solve.it.

Wht did ur Krishtian Sonia Mata did for 10 years and her family in the previous 60 years ? She was slitting mother India and treating everyone like shit.

Here is a wise words you might not have heard. Irrespetive of whether a person is white, brown, black, shit is always brown.

swapna wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:this is unusual because most western magazines avoid publishing photos of people defecating, and of mangled corpses. see the picture and the well-written article, including statistics, here:

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21607837-fixing-dreadful-sanitation-india-requires-not-just-building-lavatories-also-changing

the boys appear to be shitting curbside, close to houses and shops, in some northindian town. I wonder if the hindi poster is urging southern indians to learn and speak hindi, even as northpeepals shit on mother india.

note the pigs, the trash strewn about, and the stagnant pools of water, which will form a deadly combination with the feces, near the boys' open toilet. 

hundreds of millions of indians perform this deed every day, especially across the vast and dusty indo-gangetic plains, with increasing density of open defecation (see the map in the article).

congratulations to narenbhai and his government for confronting this horrible problem and taking steps.to solve.it.

Wht did ur Krishtian Sonia Mata did for 10 years and her family in the previous 60 years ? She was slitting mother India and treating everyone like shit.

Here is a wise words you might not have heard. Irrespetive of whether a person is white, brown, black, shit is always brown.

there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

garam_kuta wrote:

silvermani wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

silvermani wrote:The problem is people's attitude, not poverty. My uncle has been on a social service binge for the past 10 years or so, constructing a school, hospital, drinking water filtration facility, dredging the local lake, etc in his village. He wanted to root out open defecation in the village so he offered a commode and other needed materials to every household that didn't have a toilet and wanted to build one. People would take these materials and then sell them instead of actually using them. You cannot "develop"people that don't want development.

This is not an easy problem to solve. Teaching these uneducated, poor villagers the value of hygiene won't work. Some kind of scare tactic is required like catching AIDS or leprosy if one defecates in public places. Or, a trained SWAT team of bandicoot rats to bite them in the ass when they take a dump. Saamiyar might have better ideas.

haha, that sounds like a good plan!

'haha' you say, because you and your ilk got lucky in your lives sorry.. this one is not funny/sarky/dark humor particularly about young children. do you really think they can stand the stench..there are many things that one can never get adapted to, no matter how long your conditioning was, you will hate it.
frustration/exasperation is one thing and one should know how to deal with it and continue the mission. but to become insensitive, callous and much worst, become undeservingly authoritative.. jeez it's almost like taking revenge ; tells more about you than about those children, i should think.

swapna wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:this is unusual because most western magazines avoid publishing photos of people defecating, and of mangled corpses. see the picture and the well-written article, including statistics, here:

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21607837-fixing-dreadful-sanitation-india-requires-not-just-building-lavatories-also-changing

the boys appear to be shitting curbside, close to houses and shops, in some northindian town. I wonder if the hindi poster is urging southern indians to learn and speak hindi, even as northpeepals shit on mother india.

note the pigs, the trash strewn about, and the stagnant pools of water, which will form a deadly combination with the feces, near the boys' open toilet. 

hundreds of millions of indians perform this deed every day, especially across the vast and dusty indo-gangetic plains, with increasing density of open defecation (see the map in the article).

congratulations to narenbhai and his government for confronting this horrible problem and taking steps.to solve.it.

Wht did ur Krishtian Sonia Mata did for 10 years and her family in the previous 60 years ? She was slitting mother India and treating everyone like shit.

Here is a wise words you might not have heard. Irrespetive of whether a person is white, brown, black, shit is always brown.

there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

Kayalvizhi wrote:Not only in economic progress but also in the delivery of public services, such as food, health care and school education, Tamil Nadu would be better off as an independent country.

"A number of Indian American states--Kerala and Tamil Nadu New York and California, for example--would be at the top of the South Asian comparisons if they were treated as separate countries, and others--Alabama and Louisiana, for example--would do enormously worse." - Professors Jean Drèze and Amartya Sen in their 2013 book “An Uncertain Glory: India and its Contradictions” (both authors are economists and Amartya Sen received the Nobel prize in economics in 1998).

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes?

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes? 

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes? 

an excerpt from the article:

"A 2005 government survey, the most recent national one, found that 67% of all Hindu households, rural and urban, practised open defecation, compared with just 42% of Muslim ones.
A new household survey of nearly 23,000 north Indians offers more evidence, especially from Hindu households. Led by Diane Coffey, an economist at Princeton, it found that even among households with a working latrine, more than 40% reported that at least one family member preferred to defecate in the open."

apparently, the researchers asked the question that you had difficulty imagining: "what is your religion?"

moreover, if the responder's name is ganesan he is hindu, and if it's mohammed ali, he is muslim. they were probably interviewed in person, in the presence of others who knew them, or they were asked for some evidence of their veracity. surveyors know the tricks.

swapna wrote:

... moreover, if the responder's name is ganesan he is hindu, and if ....

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:
there is no mention of sonia gandhi or christians in the article published in the economist. however, hindu traditions and cultural practices are mentioned clearly as a.major factor, perhaps the overwhelming causal factor in open defecation. muslims are mentioned, but in a favourable light in relation to hindus.

an excerpt from the article:

"...need to confront the cultural reasons for bad sanitation. Hindu tradition... encourages defecation in the open, far from home, to avoid ritual impurity. Caste division is another factor, as by tradition it was only the lowliest in society, “untouchables” (nowDalits), who cleared human waste. Many people, notably in the Hindu-dominated Gangetic plains, today still show a preference for going in the open—even if they have latrines at home."

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes? 

an excerpt from the article:

"A 2005 government survey, the most recent national one, found that 67% of all Hindu households, rural and urban, practised open defecation, compared with just 42% of Muslim ones.
A new household survey of nearly 23,000 north Indians offers more evidence, especially from Hindu households. Led by Diane Coffey, an economist at Princeton, it found that even among households with a working latrine, more than 40% reported that at least one family member preferred to defecate in the open."

apparently, the researchers asked the question that you had difficulty imagining: "what is your religion?"

moreover, if the responder's name is ganesan he is hindu, and if it's mohammed ali, he is muslim. they were probably interviewed in person, in the presence of others who knew them, or they were asked for some evidence of their veracity. surveyors know the tricks.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

This is just individual prejudice masquerading as sociological theory. Like in India, nearly a third of the population in Nigeria defecates in the open. They don't follow Hindu tradition, do they?

percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes? 

an excerpt from the article:

"A 2005 government survey, the most recent national one, found that 67% of all Hindu households, rural and urban, practised open defecation, compared with just 42% of Muslim ones.
A new household survey of nearly 23,000 north Indians offers more evidence, especially from Hindu households. Led by Diane Coffey, an economist at Princeton, it found that even among households with a working latrine, more than 40% reported that at least one family member preferred to defecate in the open."

apparently, the researchers asked the question that you had difficulty imagining: "what is your religion?"

moreover, if the responder's name is ganesan he is hindu, and if it's mohammed ali, he is muslim. they were probably interviewed in person, in the presence of others who knew them, or they were asked for some evidence of their veracity. surveyors know the tricks.

Unkil, first of all, given the disparate family sizes, 67% of Hindu households may well equal 42% of Muslim households in terms of numbers of individuals who defecate in the open.

Second, ignoring the Hindu numbers for a second, one has to wonder why 42% of Muslim households practice open defecation. Surely, they are not influenced by Hindu cashtu and ritual purity traditions?

Third, you can't compare proportions of households in India vs percentage of individuals in Nigeria and exclaim "Big difference". It's apples and oranges.

Last, let's look at Nigeria in more detail. While the nationwide figure of people who practise open defecation is estimated around 29%, if you zero in on the state of Ekiti, it is as high as 67%.. Just fyi, the Ekiti people follow the Yoruba religion. Not Hinduism.

Your turn.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

swapna wrote:
percentages of people defecating in the open, among different groups: 

indian hindus: 67%

indian muslims: 42%

nigerians: 29%

significant differences.

I can believe the stat that half the Indian population defecates outside but don't have any credibility to breakdowns by religion. What do the researchers do, ask them what religion and caste they belong to as they emerge from the bushes? 

an excerpt from the article:

"A 2005 government survey, the most recent national one, found that 67% of all Hindu households, rural and urban, practised open defecation, compared with just 42% of Muslim ones.
A new household survey of nearly 23,000 north Indians offers more evidence, especially from Hindu households. Led by Diane Coffey, an economist at Princeton, it found that even among households with a working latrine, more than 40% reported that at least one family member preferred to defecate in the open."

apparently, the researchers asked the question that you had difficulty imagining: "what is your religion?"

moreover, if the responder's name is ganesan he is hindu, and if it's mohammed ali, he is muslim. they were probably interviewed in person, in the presence of others who knew them, or they were asked for some evidence of their veracity. surveyors know the tricks.

Unkil, first of all, given the disparate family sizes, 67% of Hindu households may well equal 42% of Muslim households in terms of numbers of individuals who defecate in the open.

Second, ignoring the Hindu numbers for a second, one has to wonder why 42% of Muslim households practice open defecation. Surely, they are not influenced by Hindu cashtu and ritual purity traditions?

Third, you can't compare proportions of households in India vs percentage of individuals in Nigeria and exclaim "Big difference". It's apples and oranges.

Last, let's look at Nigeria in more detail. While the nationwide figure of people who practise open defecation is estimated around 29%, if you zero in on the state of Ekiti, [url=/open-defecation-old-problem-in-a-new-world]it is as high as 67%.[/url]. Just fyi, the Ekiti people follow the Yoruba religion. Not Hinduism.

Your turn.

I try to resist the temptation to believe in the traditional middle class Indian wisdom that fields like sociology only attract the dregs of the intellectual class, but articles like this make that so difficult.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:a critique:
http://rupasubramanya.blogspot.in/2014/07/is-it-religion-which-makes-hindus.html

i bet it would be very difficult to get a fit like this published in any self-respecting natural science journal:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't know who she is. i found the article interesting.

goodcitizn wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't know who she is. i found the article interesting.

The picture was so disgusting that I couldn't bring myself to read.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:a critique:
http://rupasubramanya.blogspot.in/2014/07/is-it-religion-which-makes-hindus.html

i bet it would be very difficult to get a fit like this published in any self-respecting natural science journal: