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why students leave the engineering track
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:51 pm
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/why-students-leave-the-engineering-track/
interesting, but i am not sure i believe the findings of the article.
interesting, but i am not sure i believe the findings of the article.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:23 am
any thoughts on why relatively few caucasians seem to opt for science and engineering, at least in the U.S.?
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:33 am
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/why-students-leave-the-engineering-track/
interesting, but i am not sure i believe the findings of the article.
It is quite believable. Don't you agree with the drop out rate ?
Except for the top 25 eng schools, students are admitted as long as they meet min stads - many governed by state laws and some due to enrollment compulsions. the result is many of these students are math deficient. That deficiency frustrates them very early in their program and many drop out after repeating courses 2 or 3 times. Besides, many students are turned off by math, physics,chem in their first 2 years bcz they expect "engineering" courses and hands on "fun things" right from start.
so, most schools have found a way to raise the graduation rates - by dumbing down/trimming the curriculum and by grade inflation. That is what that graph implies.
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Kris Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:37 am
Rashmun wrote:any thoughts on why relatively few caucasians seem to opt for science and engineering, at least in the U.S.?
>>>>The public schools have been in a dumbed- down mode for awhile now. Result= inadequate preparation for tough undergrad majors, unless there is extra push at home. This push is more common among asian/indian families.
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:49 pm
i think homeworks being harder etc. are only part of the story. i do see lots of motivated caucasian kids in engineering classes; no dearth of them. the explanation that public schools dumb down the curriculum is also a bit simplistic. you can come out of a good american public school with a solid science and math background if you want to. the key being the student's and the family's individual desire to do so. you can also come through a high school program doing mickey mouse courses. i think the key is the value that the american economy places on engineers. they get good starts, but soon finance and business majors get ahead in pure money terms at a much faster clip (i know this plays right into uppili's playbook) but it's the truth. so the really smart kids gravitate to those disciplines.
engineering is simply viewed as a discipline where the financial rewards to effort ratio is just too low. having said that, the equation has changed in the last three or four years a bit after the blowing up of wall street.
engineering is simply viewed as a discipline where the financial rewards to effort ratio is just too low. having said that, the equation has changed in the last three or four years a bit after the blowing up of wall street.
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:22 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i think homeworks being harder etc. are only part of the story. i do see lots of motivated caucasian kids in engineering classes; no dearth of them. the explanation that public schools dumb down the curriculum is also a bit simplistic. you can come out of a good american public school with a solid science and math background if you want to. the key being the student's and the family's individual desire to do so. you can also come through a high school program doing mickey mouse courses. i think the key is the value that the american economy places on engineers. they get good starts, but soon finance and business majors get ahead in pure money terms at a much faster clip (i know this plays right into uppili's playbook) but it's the truth. so the really smart kids gravitate to those disciplines.
engineering is simply viewed as a discipline where the financial rewards to effort ratio is just too low. having said that, the equation has changed in the last three or four years a bit after the blowing up of wall street.
Yes everything IS possible. Those who believe in that and work harder with realistic expectations end up in the top 25 schools. Yes, you do find such motivated students but that ratio is dwindling, and the rest of the crowd prefers to drop out/change out.
K-12 has dumbed down - to unbelievable levels. parents (often forming broken families) object their wards being given homework. I have heard this from many K-12 teachers. Also look at the hours spent in class in various fields in 1961 and 2001. That should indicate the rot that has crept in.
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Kris Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:35 pm
-------------------. i do see lots of motivated caucasian kids in engineering classes; no dearth of them.
>>>But where are they percentage-wise in any given class, as opposed to say 30 years ago? In the UC's, this is pretty much down to the low 2 digits, if I were to hazard a guess.
the explanation that public schools dumb down the curriculum is also a bit simplistic. you can come out of a good american public school with a solid science and math background if you want to.
>>>'if you want to' is of course true, but the minimal requirement to enter a college is a rather low bar. The UC's (which is what I am most familiar with) require up to algebra 2 as the minimum, with the next class pre-calc/ trig as a preference. This is a rather low bar for any major. Add to that, counselors who are a little quick to point johnny in the direction of the path of least resistance i.e the mickey mouse route.
----- i think the key is the value that the american economy places on engineers. they get good starts, but soon finance and business majors get ahead in pure money terms at a much faster clip (i know this plays right into uppili's playbook) but it's the truth. so the really smart kids gravitate to those disciplines.
>>>True and add to that the media does not glamorize these professions. It doesn't help the effort/result economics are out of whack.
>>>But where are they percentage-wise in any given class, as opposed to say 30 years ago? In the UC's, this is pretty much down to the low 2 digits, if I were to hazard a guess.
the explanation that public schools dumb down the curriculum is also a bit simplistic. you can come out of a good american public school with a solid science and math background if you want to.
>>>'if you want to' is of course true, but the minimal requirement to enter a college is a rather low bar. The UC's (which is what I am most familiar with) require up to algebra 2 as the minimum, with the next class pre-calc/ trig as a preference. This is a rather low bar for any major. Add to that, counselors who are a little quick to point johnny in the direction of the path of least resistance i.e the mickey mouse route.
----- i think the key is the value that the american economy places on engineers. they get good starts, but soon finance and business majors get ahead in pure money terms at a much faster clip (i know this plays right into uppili's playbook) but it's the truth. so the really smart kids gravitate to those disciplines.
>>>True and add to that the media does not glamorize these professions. It doesn't help the effort/result economics are out of whack.
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Re: why students leave the engineering track
by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:18 pm
If Yem Bee AAs are imported from outside as they do with engineers, the Looters' wages will drop and kids in Amrikaa will focus again on engineering.
BTW, the same thing is happening in India - slightly different manner. The Big 5 hire engineers who pass with 60% and convert them into code coolies. The good ones go into management.
The IITs are so diluted now, many many first years are unable to stand the rigor and flunk - yes flunk. So...since it is unacceptable to fail the quota puppies, the curriculum is being dumbed down and grace marks increased. (Straight from a couple of Head of dept from the IITs).
Of course, medical students passing with 35 marks in 3rd attempt with 27 gracemarks is well publicized, and yesterday I read that a MD - radiology seat costs 2 crores in BANGALORE (3rd rate school).
Jai hind.
BTW, the same thing is happening in India - slightly different manner. The Big 5 hire engineers who pass with 60% and convert them into code coolies. The good ones go into management.
The IITs are so diluted now, many many first years are unable to stand the rigor and flunk - yes flunk. So...since it is unacceptable to fail the quota puppies, the curriculum is being dumbed down and grace marks increased. (Straight from a couple of Head of dept from the IITs).
Of course, medical students passing with 35 marks in 3rd attempt with 27 gracemarks is well publicized, and yesterday I read that a MD - radiology seat costs 2 crores in BANGALORE (3rd rate school).
Jai hind.
Marathadi-Saamiyaar- Posts : 17675
Join date : 2011-04-30
Age : 110
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