The massacre at Madurai

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:44 am

Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

---------

I am shocked, surprised, and even pained to learn that the execution of 8,000 Jains is celebrated annually to this day in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai. This barbaric practice must immediately be brought to an end. The fact that the execution of the Jain monks is also celebrated in the temple carvings is also shocking.Perhaps all such carvings should be removed from the temple.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:59 am

The massacre at Madurai probably never happened. According to a blog ("DID KOON-PANDIYAN REALLY KILL 8000 JAIN MONKS?" ... http://creative.sulekha.com/did-koon-pandiyan-really-kill-8000-jain-monks_597588_blog) by Dr. VS Goplalakrishnan, the information about these killings of 7000 Jain monks in Madurai was not even recorded by the Jains themselves who supposedly were the victims. It was just a cook-up by some Saivites. Here is my response (earlier comment) on this in the following.

>>> Dear VSG-ji,

There probably was no killing of 8000 Jains or Jain priests in Madurai (south India) by Koon-Pandiyan or any other Saivite (king or anyone else) during 7th century AD.

Around that era, and even until 1000 AD, there were frequent intermarriages between Jains and Hindus in north India. Moreover, the Jain women who married Hindu men were usually allowed to keep their religion after marriage. If there had been much animosity between Hindus and Jains during that era, especially the killing of a large number of Jain priests by a Hindu / Saivite king in SI, it would have spilled into north India in terms of tension or violence between Jains and Hindus. Peaceful co-existence between Hindus and Jains in north India, especially the intermarriages between Jains and Hindus, would not take place in such tense atmosphere.

This indicates that the story of massacre of 8000 Jain priests in Madurai, even if existing in some texts, is probably not true and might be a later creation / addition. Personally, I doubt there were that many (8000) Jain priests in Madurai at that time to start with. Moreover, since this story exists in some Hindu / Saivite texts and not the texts of Jains (who supposedly were the victims and would not miss the opportunity to record such a huge loss / massacre of their own) is another indication that this story is not true.

Perhaps this fictional story was created and planted by some Saivite (Hindu) priests in their own texts in an effort to discourage their flock (ordinary Saivites) from getting into close relations with Jains (including inter-marriages) and switching religious allegiances.

Lamberdar

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:05 pm

Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:06 pm

Not just TN, but Karnataka also has an interesting feature : Shiva temples existing today at the precise spot where Jain temples used to exist.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

This probably was just a wishful thinking on the part of some Saivites (priests probably) to impress their own folks in that region by using such fake stories to show their "elusive" political power. I have heard other similar stories.
In one story, when Mohamed Ghazani (1000 yrs. ago) attacked a Himdu temple to destroy it, the wasps appeared from the walls of the temple and attacked M. Gazani's soldiers making them run away.
In another story, Prithvi Raj Chauhan (who supposedly had been blinded and held prisoner by Mohammed Gauri) one day heard the voice of Mohammed Gauri, shot an arrow in the direction of the voice while still in captivity and killed Mohammed Gauri.
Even the proclamation in the Manusmriti that any shudra trying to read the Veda would have molten lead poured in his ears is quite fake. Many shudras (Valmiki and Satyakame for example) had been reading the Veda for a long time. Moreover, most of the people in society (including brahmins and shudras) avoided reading the Veda, because it was a very lengthy and tedious effort without significant advantage later (as also indicated in Macaulay's report -- https://such.forumotion.com/t9108-caste-based-quotas-in-the-light-of-macaulay-s-report).

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:03 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.
This probably was just a wishful thinking on the part of some Saivites (priests probably) to impress their own folks in that region by using such fake stories to show their "elusive" political power. I have heard other similar stories.
In one story, when Mohamed Ghazani (1000 yrs. ago) attacked a Himdu temple to destroy it, the wasps appeared from the walls of the temple and attacked M. Gazani's soldiers making them run away.
In another story, Prithvi Raj Chauhan (who supposedly had been blinded and held prisoner by Mohammed Gauri) one day heard the voice of Mohammed Gauri, shot an arrow in the direction of the voice while still in captivity and killed Mohammed Gauri.
Even the proclamation in the Manusmriti that any shudra trying to read the Veda would have molten lead poured in his ears is quite fake. Many shudras (Valmiki and Satyakame for example) had been reading the Veda for a long time. Moreover, most of the people in society (including brahmins and shudras) avoided reading the Veda, because it was a very lengthy and tedious effort without significant advantage later (as also indicated in Macaulay's report -- https://such.forumotion.com/t9108-caste-based-quotas-in-the-light-of-macaulay-s-report).

What about the fact that there exist Shiva temples in TN and Karnataka which were earlier Jain temples but subsequently re-converted into Shiva temples?

by Kayalvizhi Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:06 pm

rashmun, rishi,

Will you please answewr my query in the Tamil Christian thread

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:09 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:rashmun, rishi,

Will you please answewr my query in the Tamil Christian thread

KV it is there in the readers's comments section. Stop wasting my time.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:11 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:rashmun, rishi,

Will you please answewr my query in the Tamil Christian thread

KV it is there in the readers's comments section. Stop wasting my time.

NO, It is not there. Look for yourself.

by Rishi Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:41 pm

To KV

It is comment #18

18/D-12
Mar 03, 2013
03:48 AM Oh.... now everything make sense!! While reading the article I suspected the writer is a Christian fanatic but then checked the name (S Anand) and thought he is another confused 'left liberal'.... no wonder this cheap convert is calling Hindu idols as pornographic and talked againt gays... this is a standard technique of Christian fanatics in Chennai.... they insult the idols (call it satan, pornographic etc) and conduct mass prayers for the demolition of these idols. I went to a popular church in Saidapet (Chennai ) out of curiosity few years back and the entire hall (around 500 fanatics) stood up and started praying "Oh lord please let the big evil Hanuman statue in Delhi crumble down under the Metro trains"!!!! I was like.... WTF!!! I never knew such things happened in churches!!! They still do that and nobody bothers, not even a whisper of protest!!
I am all for free speech, but atleast someone should file a case against this fanatic writer & Outlook for insulting Hindu idols (he called it pornographic- that surely must have hurt the sentiments of many devotees??).
Prasanth
Melbourne, Australia
PERMALINK | LIKE (16) | DISLIKE (2) | REPORT ABUSE

by Kayalvizhi Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:46 pm

You have to click on another link in your link to read your excerpt.

by goodcitizn Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:15 pm

Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

Where are such pictures? Please post them.

I grew up in Madurai. Attending various upanyasams and religious functions at the Meenakshi temple used to be a family tradition so I was exposed to them as a kid. Never once have I witnessed any such celebration of Jain killings nor was I even aware of such a thing. Was this a highly secretive celebration?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:19 pm

goodcitizn wrote:

I grew up in Madurai.

TVS colony/pazhanganaththam?

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:31 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

Where are such pictures? Please post them.

I grew up in Madurai. Attending various upanyasams and religious functions at the Meenakshi temple used to be a family tradition so I was exposed to them as a kid. Never once have I witnessed any such celebration of Jain killings nor was I even aware of such a thing. Was this a highly secretive celebration?

My source for this information is various online articles that i read.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:33 pm

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

Where are such pictures? Please post them.

I grew up in Madurai. Attending various upanyasams and religious functions at the Meenakshi temple used to be a family tradition so I was exposed to them as a kid. Never once have I witnessed any such celebration of Jain killings nor was I even aware of such a thing. Was this a highly secretive celebration?

My source for this information is various online articles that i read.

For instance:

Killings and aftermath

Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

by goodcitizn Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:

I grew up in Madurai.

TVS colony/pazhanganaththam?

In Ponnagaram Compound [Officers quarters of Madura Coats] till I was 13. Thereafter in Arasaradi, bypass road. SS Colony came much later in that area. Are you familiar with Madurai?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:40 pm

goodcitizn wrote: Are you familiar with Madurai?

three years. we lived in ss colony and i used to attend the tvs school.

by goodcitizn Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:42 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.

Where are such pictures? Please post them.

I grew up in Madurai. Attending various upanyasams and religious functions at the Meenakshi temple used to be a family tradition so I was exposed to them as a kid. Never once have I witnessed any such celebration of Jain killings nor was I even aware of such a thing. Was this a highly secretive celebration?

My source for this information is various online articles that i read.

For instance:

Killings and aftermath

Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre[/quote[/url]]

I don't find anything here highly credible. Being from Madurai and having read a great deal about Madurai history, I should have at least heard of such an annual celebration or seen sculptures by the tank depicting such killings. That's why I was surprised.

by goodcitizn Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:51 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
goodcitizn wrote: Are you familiar with Madurai?

three years. we lived in ss colony and i used to attend the tvs school.

My grandfather built our house in Ponni Nagar in a coconut grove back then. We were the first to bring electricity for that area. And the construction of the bypass road started. SS Colony began to be formed south of us on the bypass road where paddy fields used to be. Peacocks from Thiruparamkundram used to frequent that area. Oh, memories.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:54 pm

Rashmun wrote:Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

---------

I am shocked, surprised, and even pained to learn that the execution of 8,000 Jains is celebrated annually to this day in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai. This barbaric practice must immediately be brought to an end. The fact that the execution of the Jain monks is also celebrated in the temple carvings is also shocking.Perhaps all such carvings should be removed from the temple.

Ok. What is your next agenda - Buddhist massacre in Andhra and Orissa, and Christian massacre in Kerala? After finishing all that, will post the perfect remedy for all these massacres - SIs learning Hindi?

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:30 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.
This probably was just a wishful thinking on the part of some Saivites (priests probably) to impress their own folks in that region by using such fake stories to show their "elusive" political power. I have heard other similar stories.
In one story, when Mohamed Ghazani (1000 yrs. ago) attacked a Himdu temple to destroy it, the wasps appeared from the walls of the temple and attacked M. Gazani's soldiers making them run away.
In another story, Prithvi Raj Chauhan (who supposedly had been blinded and held prisoner by Mohammed Gauri) one day heard the voice of Mohammed Gauri, shot an arrow in the direction of the voice while still in captivity and killed Mohammed Gauri.
Even the proclamation in the Manusmriti that any shudra trying to read the Veda would have molten lead poured in his ears is quite fake. Many shudras (Valmiki and Satyakame for example) had been reading the Veda for a long time. Moreover, most of the people in society (including brahmins and shudras) avoided reading the Veda, because it was a very lengthy and tedious effort without significant advantage later (as also indicated in Macaulay's report -- https://such.forumotion.com/t9108-caste-based-quotas-in-the-light-of-macaulay-s-report).

What about the fact that there exist Shiva temples in TN and Karnataka which were earlier Jain temples but subsequently re-converted into Shiva temples?

That's easy to explain.
Jains, like Hindus, worship the deity in the female form, specifically as "Devi". Many Jain temples include altars for the worship of Devi. Devi also symbolizes Shakthi (the female aspect of Brahman). Shakthi is closely associated with Siva (the male aspect of Brahman). This means that the original Jain temples (having Devi symbols as the deity) might have slowly (without any forcible and sudden take over by the Saivites) transformned over time (perhaps as the Jain population in that area declined) into Sahkthi / Siva temples.
Thus even the temple dedicated to Meenakshi (a form of Devi or Shakthi) would have a symbol in it representing Siva, since Siva and Sakthi always are together. There definitely would be no need to use force if a temple dedicated to Devi and used by Jains morphed over time into a temple dedicated to Sakthi / Siva (used by Saivites).
As far the celebrations in the temples currently, that might just be a reaction / response (while having a good time) by the present worshippers (Meenakshi devotees etc.) to the original questionable writings. These celebrations don't prove that the temples were forcibly taken over and the Jain monks killed long ago.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:52 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Seva, there are frescos and figures in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai where the killings of the Jain monks is depicted. Moreover, the killing of the Jain monks is celebrated annually at the Meenakshi temple.
This probably was just a wishful thinking on the part of some Saivites (priests probably) to impress their own folks in that region by using such fake stories to show their "elusive" political power. I have heard other similar stories.
In one story, when Mohamed Ghazani (1000 yrs. ago) attacked a Himdu temple to destroy it, the wasps appeared from the walls of the temple and attacked M. Gazani's soldiers making them run away.
In another story, Prithvi Raj Chauhan (who supposedly had been blinded and held prisoner by Mohammed Gauri) one day heard the voice of Mohammed Gauri, shot an arrow in the direction of the voice while still in captivity and killed Mohammed Gauri.
Even the proclamation in the Manusmriti that any shudra trying to read the Veda would have molten lead poured in his ears is quite fake. Many shudras (Valmiki and Satyakame for example) had been reading the Veda for a long time. Moreover, most of the people in society (including brahmins and shudras) avoided reading the Veda, because it was a very lengthy and tedious effort without significant advantage later (as also indicated in Macaulay's report -- https://such.forumotion.com/t9108-caste-based-quotas-in-the-light-of-macaulay-s-report).

What about the fact that there exist Shiva temples in TN and Karnataka which were earlier Jain temples but subsequently re-converted into Shiva temples?
That's easy to explain.
Jains, like Hindus, worship the deity in the female form, specifically as "Devi". Many Jain temples include altars for the worship of Devi. Devi also symbolizes Shakthi (the female aspect of Brahman). Shakthi is closely associated with Siva (the male aspect of Brahman). This means that the original Jain temples (having Devi symbols as the deity) might have slowly (without any forcible and sudden take over by the Saivites) transformned over time (perhaps as the Jain population in that area declined) into Sahkthi / Siva temples.
Thus even the temple dedicated to Meenakshi (a form of Devi or Shakthi) would have a symbol in it representing Siva, since Siva and Sakthi always are together. There definitely would be no need to use force if a temple dedicated to Devi and used by Jains morphed over time into a temple dedicated to Sakthi / Siva (used by Saivites).
As far the celebrations in the temples currently, that might just be a reaction / response (while having a good time) by the present worshippers (Meenakshi devotees etc.) to the original questionable writings. These celebrations don't prove that the temples were forcibly taken over and the Jain monks killed long ago.

The only deity i have seen in Jain temples is that of Mahavira (said to be the founder of Jainism) who is a male deity. I do not recall seeing female deities in Jain temples. Even if there is a female deity in the temple, the primary deity would always be Mahavira. It is ridiculous to believe that Jains would happily give over a temple dedicated to Mahavira so that it is converted into a temple dedicated to Shiva.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:03 pm

"The only deity i have seen in Jain temples is that of Mahavira (said to be the founder of Jainism) who is a male deity. I do not recall seeing female deities in Jain temples. Even if there is a female deity in the temple, the primary deity would always be Mahavira. It is ridiculous to believe that Jains would happily give over a temple dedicated to Mahavira so that it is converted into a temple dedicated to Shiva." Rashmun
>>> I have personally seen a place / altar for worship of Devi in Jain temple.
Moreover, if you are right about Jain temple turning into Siva temple, that change probably took place quite slowly, perhaps with the decline of Jain population in the area, as I indicated earlier. The best evidence for this is the fact that there is no mention in the ancient Jain texts about the killings of Jain monks or forcible take over of Jain temples by Saivites.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:46 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

---------

I am shocked, surprised, and even pained to learn that the execution of 8,000 Jains is celebrated annually to this day in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai. This barbaric practice must immediately be brought to an end. The fact that the execution of the Jain monks is also celebrated in the temple carvings is also shocking.Perhaps all such carvings should be removed from the temple.

Ok. What is your next agenda - Buddhist massacre in Andhra and Orissa, and Christian massacre in Kerala? After finishing all that, will post the perfect remedy for all these massacres - SIs learning Hindi?

Since some Advaitans (basically a few followers of Adi Samkara) "brag" about some Buddhists dying (being killed?) after losing debates in philosophy to Adi Samkara about 1300 years ago and also about Samkara transporting his soul into another person's body (corpse) while getting ready for one of the debates, perhaps someone might accuse Samkara of having an unfair advantage against his opponents (the ability to transport his soul into another man's body while preparing for the debate).

by Guest Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:10 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

---------

I am shocked, surprised, and even pained to learn that the execution of 8,000 Jains is celebrated annually to this day in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai. This barbaric practice must immediately be brought to an end. The fact that the execution of the Jain monks is also celebrated in the temple carvings is also shocking.Perhaps all such carvings should be removed from the temple.

Ok. What is your next agenda - Buddhist massacre in Andhra and Orissa, and Christian massacre in Kerala? After finishing all that, will post the perfect remedy for all these massacres - SIs learning Hindi?
Since some Advaitans (basically a few followers of Adi Samkara) "brag" about some Buddhists dying (being killed?) after losing debates in philosophy to Adi Samkara about 1300 years ago and also about Samkara transporting his soul into another person's body (corpse) while getting ready for one of the debates, perhaps someone might accuse Samkara of having an unfair advantage against his opponents (the ability to transport his soul into another man's body while preparing for the debate).

what was the reason that budhism and jainism were at one point of time very popular throughout India and threatening to together overtake the sway of hinduism in India, but then subsequently both these religions got (for the most part) wiped out from India?

by Rishi Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:56 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:"The only deity i have seen in Jain temples is that of Mahavira (said to be the founder of Jainism) who is a male deity. I do not recall seeing female deities in Jain temples. Even if there is a female deity in the temple, the primary deity would always be Mahavira. It is ridiculous to believe that Jains would happily give over a temple dedicated to Mahavira so that it is converted into a temple dedicated to Shiva." Rashmun
>>> I have personally seen a place / altar for worship of Devi in Jain temple.
Moreover, if you are right about Jain temple turning into Siva temple, that change probably took place quite slowly, perhaps with the decline of Jain population in the area, as I indicated earlier. The best evidence for this is the fact that there is no mention in the ancient Jain texts about the killings of Jain monks or forcible take over of Jain temples by Saivites.

Seva,

In order to survive, the Jains had to place the idols of Hindu gods in their temples. At some point in history, the Hindu kings were hostile to them. This is what a Jain guy told me.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:29 pm

This is for the Tamil a here.

When the Sinhala army massacred Tamils, they did not go and ask are you Hindu, Muslim or Christian and selectively murder them. Only criterion was is it a Tamil.

When Kannaiga hooligans murdered raped and pillged Tamils in 1991, they did not go and ask are you Hindu, Muslim or Christian and selectively taeget them. Only criterion was is it a Tamil.

So get off your religious filter and unite as Tamils.

by Guest Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:12 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:This is for the Tamil a here.

When the Sinhala army massacred Tamils, they did not go and ask are you Hindu, Muslim or Christian and selectively murder them. Only criterion was is it a Tamil.

When Kannaiga hooligans murdered raped and pillged Tamils in 1991, they did not go and ask are you Hindu, Muslim or Christian and selectively taeget them. Only criterion was is it a Tamil.

So get off your religious filter and unite as Tamils.

The most sacred site for tamil muslims is the shrine/tomb of the sufi saint Gisu Daraz which is northern Karnataka. Gisu Daraz was a north indian who had immigrated later in life and settled down in what is now Karnataka.
Dalits have a pan Indian identity. A good friend of mine is a Tamil dalit and he said he was very proud that Uttar Pradesh had selected a dalit as the Chief Minister (this conversation took place when Mayawati was in power). I understand that this is a commonly occurring attitude amongst TN dalits.
Brahmins have faced persecution in TN during the dravidian movement.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:20 pm

Rashmun wrote:Dalits have a pan Indian identity. .

Ask Thol Thirumavalavan about it.

by Rishi Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:41 pm

KV,

Why do you think there is not a single Muslim leader in TN who is protesting the imposition of Hindi?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:46 pm

Rishi wrote:KV,

Why do you think there is not a single Muslim leader in TN who is protesting the imposition of Hindi?

because there is no imposition of hindi other than as a desperate desire in the minds of some hindians?

by Kayalvizhi Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
because there is no imposition of hindi other than as a desperate desire in the minds of some hindians?

I sugest you read this

http://www.tamiltribune.com/hindi/index.html#cat06

by Kayalvizhi Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Rishi wrote:KV,

Why do you think there is not a single Muslim leader in TN who is protesting the imposition of Hindi?

Why just Muslim organizations. Can you show me a Hindu organization or Chrisian organization protesting Hindi imposition. These are religious organizations who are tailored to whatever their needs are.

Why no chemical engineering professor is not opposing Hindi imposition?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:31 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Sambandar championed the cause of Shaivism, and sought to prove wrong the Jain doctrines. When the Jains in Samanatham refused to convert to Shaivism, the king ordered their killings with the consent of Sambandar.[6] Around 8000 Jains were killed by being forcefully put over sharp, tall, conical structures in sitting posture.[7]
The massacre led to the eventual downfall of Jainism in the Pandya kingdom in the 7th century CE.[8] Sambandar also converted a number of Buddhists in another part of the kingdom to Saivism.[9] The torture is depicted on some carvings of the Meenakshi temple in Madurai.[10][11] The massacre is celebrated and commemorated annually at the temple.[12][13][1][14]
[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre

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I am shocked, surprised, and even pained to learn that the execution of 8,000 Jains is celebrated annually to this day in the Meenakshi temple at Madurai. This barbaric practice must immediately be brought to an end. The fact that the execution of the Jain monks is also celebrated in the temple carvings is also shocking.Perhaps all such carvings should be removed from the temple.

Ok. What is your next agenda - Buddhist massacre in Andhra and Orissa, and Christian massacre in Kerala? After finishing all that, will post the perfect remedy for all these massacres - SIs learning Hindi?
Since some Advaitans (basically a few followers of Adi Samkara) "brag" about some Buddhists dying (being killed?) after losing debates in philosophy to Adi Samkara about 1300 years ago and also about Samkara transporting his soul into another person's body (corpse) while getting ready for one of the debates, perhaps someone might accuse Samkara of having an unfair advantage against his opponents (the ability to transport his soul into another man's body while preparing for the debate).

what was the reason that budhism and jainism were at one point of time very popular throughout India and threatening to together overtake the sway of hinduism in India, but then subsequently both these religions got (for the most part) wiped out from India?

It's more like these people (Buddhists and Jains in India) returning eventually to their Hindu roots (the Hindu religion from which Buddhism and Jainism had sprung out). I know about a guy in my area -- he changed his religion from Hinduism to another during 1960s and he was back as a Hindu in late 1980s (after having had a closer look, as a follower, of his newly adopted religion).

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:42 am

Rishi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:"The only deity i have seen in Jain temples is that of Mahavira (said to be the founder of Jainism) who is a male deity. I do not recall seeing female deities in Jain temples. Even if there is a female deity in the temple, the primary deity would always be Mahavira. It is ridiculous to believe that Jains would happily give over a temple dedicated to Mahavira so that it is converted into a temple dedicated to Shiva." Rashmun
>>> I have personally seen a place / altar for worship of Devi in Jain temple.
Moreover, if you are right about Jain temple turning into Siva temple, that change probably took place quite slowly, perhaps with the decline of Jain population in the area, as I indicated earlier. The best evidence for this is the fact that there is no mention in the ancient Jain texts about the killings of Jain monks or forcible take over of Jain temples by Saivites.

Seva,

In order to survive, the Jains had to place the idols of Hindu gods in their temples. At some point in history, the Hindu kings were hostile to them. This is what a Jain guy told me.

That may not be true Rishi.
These so called Hindu idols were probably kept in some Jain temples, because the devotees belonging to those temple might originally be Hindus and they might have felt a closee connection to some favorite family deity (Ishta), even taking it with them to their new place of worship (after adopting Jainism as their religion). Needless to say, when they started worshipping as Jains, their worship was not limited to Mahavira etc. (Jain deities) but also to some Hindu deities (they brought with them).
In all probability, the worshipping of a Hindu deity (symbol) by Jains must have been voluntary and not forced. As I indicated earlier, some of the Jain women who marred Hindu men were even allowed to keep their Jain religion after marriage.

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