[impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

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[impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:31 am

... is out. my younger bought it today and has started reading it? i am thinking of buying my own copy and starting it. what about you? it's a fat tome this time -- whopper burger.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Impedimenta on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:49 pm

i am buying it. I am on amazon as i type...

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:45 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:... is out. my younger bought it today and has started reading it? i am thinking of buying my own copy and starting it. what about you? it's a fat tome this time -- whopper burger.
Don't waste your time and money.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:25 am

In general these books are the English translations, with some extra twists and turns, in post-Vedic Puranic fictional stories, in this case from the relatively recent Shiva Purana which has mythical stories concocted using the names of familiar character, places and deities etc.
Shiva (including its name) as a deity is a post-Vedic phenomenon, based essentially according to the characteristics of Vedic Agni. (more later)

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:36 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:In general these books are the English translations,
wrong. please resubmit.
in post-Vedic Puranic fictional stories, in this case from the relatively recent Shiva Purana which has mythical stories concocted using the names of familiar character, places and deities etc.
wrong. please resubmit. the ideas in the book are taken from a scholarly work. this is not to deny that the book is a work of fiction.
Shiva (including its name) as a deity is a post-Vedic phenomenon, based essentially according to the characteristics of Vedic Agni. (more later)
irrelevant. nobody is disputing this.

sincere advice: don't waste your time and money educating us about vedas and caste based reservations.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Impedimenta on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:39 am

ya so what's wrong with fiction? they are entertaining and have their own reader base. life is real enough for me and i am not the kind to look for "realism" in entertainment. To me, reading [fiction] and watching movies[with names i can pronounce] are entertainment. Amish is like Dan brown of the da vinci code fame. so you don't look for shiva puranam from his books just like you don't sit and compare the bible with Dan brown's works.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Impedimenta on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:41 am

huz, totally enjoying chanakya's chant:-)

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:59 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:In general these books are the English translations,
wrong. please resubmit.
in post-Vedic Puranic fictional stories, in this case from the relatively recent Shiva Purana which has mythical stories concocted using the names of familiar character, places and deities etc.
wrong. please resubmit. the ideas in the book are taken from a scholarly work. this is not to deny that the book is a work of fiction.
Shiva (including its name) as a deity is a post-Vedic phenomenon, based essentially according to the characteristics of Vedic Agni. (more later)
irrelevant. nobody is disputing this.

sincere advice: don't waste your time and money educating us about vedas and caste based reservations.

I am disputing this. Shiva is sometimes identified with the Vedic deity Rudra but never with Agni. Also the sacrificial fire in the yajnas are to be identified with Vishnu according to many traditional scholars.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:04 am

Rashmun wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:In general these books are the English translations,
wrong. please resubmit.
in post-Vedic Puranic fictional stories, in this case from the relatively recent Shiva Purana which has mythical stories concocted using the names of familiar character, places and deities etc.
wrong. please resubmit. the ideas in the book are taken from a scholarly work. this is not to deny that the book is a work of fiction.
Shiva (including its name) as a deity is a post-Vedic phenomenon, based essentially according to the characteristics of Vedic Agni. (more later)
irrelevant. nobody is disputing this.

sincere advice: don't waste your time and money educating us about vedas and caste based reservations.

I am disputing this. Shiva is sometimes identified with the Vedic deity Rudra but never with Agni. Also the sacrificial fire in the yajnas are to be identified with Vishnu according to many traditional scholars.
you are absolutely correct. that thought escaped my mind. in the book also he is identified with rudra. but i am not (nor the author is) disputing that shiva is a post vedic phenomena.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:28 am

Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity. Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:35 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity. Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.

But you are associating Shiva with Agni which nobody does.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:36 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity.
and based on that someone's account you formed some really bizzare conclusions. your ways are mysterious.
Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.
it is way less speculative than your south indian north indian colour complexion and temperature theory!

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:47 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity.
and based on that someone's account you formed some really bizzare conclusions. your ways are mysterious.
Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.
it is way less speculative than your south indian north indian colour complexion and temperature theory!

Have you heard about something called epigenetics (the genetic effect due to environment and lifestyles) which might be causing the similarities in genetic markers of people rather than their ancestors migrating long ago?

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:49 am

Impedimenta wrote:ya so what's wrong with fiction? they are entertaining and have their own reader base. life is real enough for me and i am not the kind to look for "realism" in entertainment. To me, reading [fiction] and watching movies[with names i can pronounce] are entertainment. Amish is like Dan brown of the da vinci code fame. so you don't look for shiva puranam from his books just like you don't sit and compare the bible with Dan brown's works.

Many people also believe that Manusmriti is real and was put together by Manu.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:55 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity. Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.

But you are associating Shiva with Agni which nobody does.

The association between Shiva and Agni is clear. The evolution of Shiva as a deity during the post-Vedic era happened from the worship of Agni in the form shiva-linga (meaning auspicious symbol) -- Section (b) in http://creative.sulekha.com/farming-and-philosophy-in-india-during-ancient-times_527016_blog

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:20 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Impedimenta wrote:ya so what's wrong with fiction? they are entertaining and have their own reader base. life is real enough for me and i am not the kind to look for "realism" in entertainment. To me, reading [fiction] and watching movies[with names i can pronounce] are entertainment. Amish is like Dan brown of the da vinci code fame. so you don't look for shiva puranam from his books just like you don't sit and compare the bible with Dan brown's works.

Many people also believe that Manusmriti is real and was put together by Manu.

This includes people like Adi Sankaracharya who happily quotes from the Manu Smriti on several occasions in his writings. Not only does he use Manu to reinforce his own viewpoints, but Manu Smriti is also used by Sankara to attack rival philosophies like the Sankhya. For instance, according to Sankara the Sankhya philosophy is fallacious because it contradicts the Vedas and it also contradicts the Manu Smriti.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Idéfix on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:28 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity. Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.
Sevaji, careful there. If something being speculative is good reason to "not waste one's time and money" reading it, you are condemning some of your best works to a fate of being unread.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:33 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Someone who had read one of these books thought that it was true account of Shiva as a deity. Even the association of Shiva with Vedic Rudra is purely speculative.

But you are associating Shiva with Agni which nobody does.

The association between Shiva and Agni is clear. The evolution of Shiva as a deity during the post-Vedic era happened from the worship of Agni in the form shiva-linga (meaning auspicious symbol) -- Section (b) in http://creative.sulekha.com/farming-and-philosophy-in-india-during-ancient-times_527016_blog
hey dagtar shabash sharma, why don't you go around correcting wikipedia with your wisdom instead of trying to educate us. you will reach a far greater audience. wikipedia asserts the association between rudra and shiva. consider also donating some money to the wikimedia foundation for they are currently running a campaign for funds. i assure you it will not be a waste of money (or time).

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:34 pm

“hey dagtar shabash sharma, why don't you go around correcting wikipedia with your wisdom instead of trying to educate us. you will reach a far greater audience. wikipedia asserts the association between rudra and shiva.” Huzefa Kapasi



>>> The connection between Vedic Rudra and post-Vedic Shiva is coincidental, mostly both are the great destroyers. Incidentally, the destructive power of post-Vedic Shiva is directly associated with destructive power of Vedic Agni (through Linga representing both Agni and Shiva).



“This includes people like Adi Sankaracharya who happily quotes from the Manu Smriti on several occasions in his writings. Not only does he use Manu to reinforce his own viewpoints, but Manu Smriti is also used by Sankara to attack rival philosophies like the Sankhya. For instance, according to Sankara the Sankhya philosophy is fallacious because it contradicts the Vedas and it also contradicts the Manu Smriti. “… Rashmun



>>> That’s what happens when people start writing arbitrary stories etc. using the names of deities etc. and others read and consider them as real things.

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Re: [impy] the oath of the vayuptras...

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:12 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:“hey dagtar shabash sharma, why don't you go around correcting wikipedia with your wisdom instead of trying to educate us. you will reach a far greater audience. wikipedia asserts the association between rudra and shiva.” Huzefa Kapasi



>>> The connection between Vedic Rudra and post-Vedic Shiva is coincidental, mostly both are the great destroyers. Incidentally, the destructive power of post-Vedic Shiva is directly associated with destructive power of Vedic Agni (through Linga representing both Agni and Shiva).



“This includes people like Adi Sankaracharya who happily quotes from the Manu Smriti on several occasions in his writings. Not only does he use Manu to reinforce his own viewpoints, but Manu Smriti is also used by Sankara to attack rival philosophies like the Sankhya. For instance, according to Sankara the Sankhya philosophy is fallacious because it contradicts the Vedas and it also contradicts the Manu Smriti. “… Rashmun



>>> That’s what happens when people start writing arbitrary stories etc. using the names of deities etc. and others read and consider them as real things.
ok. you win.

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