Talking about 'servants'

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

iTEDx wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

yeah that's downright offensive. Just imagine a Latino family watching he episode together where a white person is screaming down

hostess scolding her maid: "I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name," finally ending with, "That said, if you don't stop screwing my husband, I'm going to have you deported."

So hurtful and embrassing to the whole family.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

iTEDx wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

yeah that's downright offensive. Just imagine a Latino family watching he episode together where a white person is screaming down

hostess scolding her maid: "I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name," finally ending with, "That said, if you don't stop screwing my husband, I'm going to have you deported."

So hurtful and embrassing to the whole family.

 
You are being unnecessarily oversenstitive about the working family's hurt and embarassment.
 
The main concern for the families and people doing these jobs is to earn money to make a living by doing hard / manual work and not be bothered if someone (inculding the employer) says "You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name".

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:>>The way to treat your servant is to treat them like a worker in a factory.

Disagree - people that help you run a household are qualitatively different and have closer links to your family. While you may not break bread or roti with them, one should take more interest in their lives and troubles. And help with non-monetary intangibles as much as we can.

Rishi wrote:
When I was working as a dish washer every day for a year, cleaning the plates, scrubbing pots and pans with very hot water for $3.50 an hour, I did not stop to think that I was cleaning plates someone had eaten from or cups which people drank from. I did the back breaking job day in and day out  just to survive.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rishi wrote:
When I was working as a dish washer every day for a year, cleaning the plates, scrubbing pots and pans with very hot water for $3.50 an hour, I did not stop to think that I was cleaning plates someone had eaten from or cups which people drank from. I did the back breaking job day in and day out  just to survive.

 
Off course.
 
During one Summer in the U.S., I was part of a small team doing extensive cleaning and painting work in a huge church complex. It was quite a messy job, as usually happens with such tasks.  My utmost concern there was to earn money by doing cleaning and painting in the church during the summer months, and nothing else. It would have made little difference to me or my feelings if the priest or any member of the church came and told me, "You, poor fellow, doing this cleaning and painting for months in the church, but you won't pray in it or hold any wedding etc. here for yourself." Similarly, I was not looking forward to having my lunch on the church table along with the priest and other members of the church.

Rishi wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rishi wrote:
When I was working as a dish washer every day for a year, cleaning the plates, scrubbing pots and pans with very hot water for $3.50 an hour, I did not stop to think that I was cleaning plates someone had eaten from or cups which people drank from. I did the back breaking job day in and day out  just to survive.

 
Off course.
 
During one Summer in the U.S., I was part of a small team doing extensive cleaning and painting work in a huge church complex. It was quite a messy job, as usually happens with such tasks.  My utmost concern there was to earn money by doing cleaning and painting in the church during the summer months, and nothing else. It would have made little difference to me or my feelings if the priest or any member of the church came and told me, "You, poor fellow, doing this cleaning and painting for months in the church, but you won't pray in it or hold any wedding etc. here for yourself." Similarly, I was not looking forward to having my lunch on the church table along with the priest and other members of the church.

Another question I want to ask people like Charvaka  is this:

There is a middle class hard working guy in Chennai who has two kids. And he has employed a  maid to clean his house and wash the clothes. The maid has a kid of her own. For Diwali, the man buys his wife a silk sari and his kids expensive shirts. Is he obligated to buy his servant maid any clothes for Diwali? Now you may say that human decency demands he buys her one. Then there is the big question. Should he get her a Rs. 600 sari or a Rs. 5000 sari he got his wife? And then what about the maid's kid? Should he buy for the kid same kind of expensive shirts he got for his own kids? Would not the maid feel slighted if he discriminates by not buying expensive items for her and her kid?

Rishi wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rishi wrote:
When I was working as a dish washer every day for a year, cleaning the plates, scrubbing pots and pans with very hot water for $3.50 an hour, I did not stop to think that I was cleaning plates someone had eaten from or cups which people drank from. I did the back breaking job day in and day out  just to survive.

 
Off course.
 
During one Summer in the U.S., I was part of a small team doing extensive cleaning and painting work in a huge church complex. It was quite a messy job, as usually happens with such tasks.  My utmost concern there was to earn money by doing cleaning and painting in the church during the summer months, and nothing else. It would have made little difference to me or my feelings if the priest or any member of the church came and told me, "You, poor fellow, doing this cleaning and painting for months in the church, but you won't pray in it or hold any wedding etc. here for yourself." Similarly, I was not looking forward to having my lunch on the church table along with the priest and other members of the church.

Another question I want to ask people like Charvaka  is this:

There is a middle class hard working guy in Chennai who has two kids. And he has employed a  maid to clean his house and wash the clothes. The maid has a kid of her own.  
For Diwali, the man buys his wife a silk sari and his kids expensive shirts.
(1) Is he obligated to buy his servant maid any clothes for Diwali?
(2) Now you may say that human decency demands he buys her one.
(3) Then there is the big question. Should he get her a Rs. 600 sari or a Rs. 5000 sari he got his wife?
(4) And then what about the maid's kid? Should he buy for the kid same kind of expensive shirts he got for his own kids?
(5) Would not the maid feel slighted if he discriminates by not buying expensive items for her and her kid?

goodcitizn wrote:American euphemisms never fail to amuse me. The dealerships in Chicago no longer call them "used cars". The signs recently say, "Pre-owned cars!"

bw wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:American euphemisms never fail to amuse me. The dealerships in Chicago no longer call them "used cars". The signs recently say, "Pre-owned cars!"

thooymai seyyum cheematti is better than velakaari? i think i will keep my 'helper' and let the PC contrived names people have their 'ladies'.

Maria S wrote:I did not read all the posts in the servant-related threads..
 
But, what is the problem in saying someone is a "servant" ? Servant does not mean slave..it's just a name for someone who provides various "hired services" in the home..for a salary with the "rights" which go along with it...and make references to others when it comes up.
 
*Just like with any job description..there are employers who don't pay fair salaries/treat employees with respect and consideration. In my family- we always treated them fairly..actually we were quite generous when we could be when it comes to salaries..some even got "retirement benefits"..
 
As for how we address them..it would be silly to call them.. "hey servant come here..go there"..it always depends on their age. If they were my age or younger than me..I called them by name..eg..Sundari..if they were older it was Sundariamma, Sundariakka..etc.
 
It's also silly to somehow make it seem one is treating them with "more respect"..if they are sitting at the table with us and eating with them. Most of the time they are working and would even "prefer" ot eat peacefully by themselves..wherever they want to..It's like any professional relationship, even in the US..it depends..with some people in the boss role we are more comfortable..some, we don't want to eat with them..and have artificial "forced" conversations..and people who work for us..they may want to eat by themselves..not us bothering them too!
 
*In the bigger picture..I like the word service- servant/server..I would not mind if someone sees me as a "servant"..someone who serves cheerfully, "efficiently".  At home I am an unpaid servant (service provider)..so what? It's my family..I can be their servant..and they can be mine..and they know- I will demand certain services when I want to, too!

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

iTEDx wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

yeah that's downright offensive. Just imagine a Latino family watching he episode together where a white person is screaming down

hostess scolding her maid: "I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name," finally ending with, "That said, if you don't stop screwing my husband, I'm going to have you deported."

So hurtful and embrassing to the whole family.

 
You are being unnecessarily oversenstitive about the working family's hurt and embarassment.
 
The main concern for the families and people doing these jobs is to earn money to make a living by doing hard / manual work and not be bothered if someone (inculding the employer) says "You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name".

"I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name"

Maria S wrote:*"Velaikari, Velaikaramma, Velakkarakka" are only references..when I am talking to others..I always address them by their name..or add an "akka", "amma" depending on their age..
 
I also say "our" in an affectionate way..Enga Sundari akka..Enga Manickam anna..etc I was always playful with them and respected them..go and see them even if I go for a short visit..they know I will fight for them..with anyone..esp. my family!

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

iTEDx wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

yeah that's downright offensive. Just imagine a Latino family watching he episode together where a white person is screaming down

hostess scolding her maid: "I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name," finally ending with, "That said, if you don't stop screwing my husband, I'm going to have you deported."

So hurtful and embrassing to the whole family.

 
You are being unnecessarily oversenstitive about the working family's hurt and embarassment.
 
The main concern for the families and people doing these jobs is to earn money to make a living by doing hard / manual work and not be bothered if someone (inculding the employer) says "You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name".

iTEDx wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

iTEDx wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/showbiz/devious-maids-controversy/index.html

No one from the PC crowd seems to have objected yet to the term 'maids'

yeah that's downright offensive. Just imagine a Latino family watching he episode together where a white person is screaming down

hostess scolding her maid: "I think what you people do is heroic. You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name," finally ending with, "That said, if you don't stop screwing my husband, I'm going to have you deported."

So hurtful and embrassing to the whole family.

 
You are being unnecessarily oversenstitive about the working family's hurt and embarassment.
 
The main concern for the families and people doing these jobs is to earn money to make a living by doing hard / manual work and not be bothered if someone (inculding the employer) says "You wash clothes you can't afford. You polish silver you will never dine with. You mop floors for people who don't bother to learn your name".

 
The point is not what the main "concern" of these people is. No one in their right mind will not find this offensive, actually that is an understatement, such statements are soul-killing.

By your logic,  then it is indeed  every person's, who comes to the US, main concern to earn money to make a living by doing hard work. Imagine if you are in a meeting, is it ok for your boss to shout down your throat something like  " Seva, just shut up and do as you are told! You are paid to follow orders and not to think like a CEO, because you people  obviously can never rise to that level. So you H1 fobbys, stay in your place or else I am gonna have to deport you! These Curry-slurpers stink up the cubicle everyday"

Actually, multiply that insult by 10 and thats how a Latino family, with kids and all, watching this series would feel.

goodcitizn wrote:

Velaikaran or velaikari simply translates to worker. I don't see a Steel Mill Worker take offese to that term. Nor is "Worker's Union" a derogatory name. So I am not sure if velaikaran is meant to be offensive although you can construe it be so and make an argument against the use of it. Yes, we always referred to our driver or housekeeper by their names. Most importantly, I find the term servant highly offensive.

Maria S wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Velaikaran or velaikari simply translates to worker. I don't see a Steel Mill Worker take offese to that term. Nor is "Worker's Union" a derogatory name. So I am not sure if velaikaran is meant to be offensive although you can construe it be so and make an argument against the use of it. Yes, we always referred to our driver or housekeeper by their names. Most importantly, I find the term servant highly offensive.

 
 
 
You are certainly entitled to your references GC...but, why so?
 
*Many years ago, I was surprised to see a name plate of a car in the US with bold letters (SERVANT)..it belonged to a Physician..I assumed it was based on the Biblical verse in the Book of Matthew..which is often used in our funeral services "well done good and faithful servant"..basically interpreted as "you have done well on Earth- served your family and others well, it's time for you to now rest and be with God"..don't know anyone who sees that offensive..I would very much like that to be said- when I rest forever! *Religious interpretations aside..somehow, don't see it as offensive..it's how we treat people who work for us- which determines if we are offensive or not.
 
There is a great hymn about it too..did not find a nice version..so, for what it's worth..
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JONX_2UXfM

Maria S wrote:Let us skip any biblical references pertaining to the use of the word "Servant". That has zero to do with what we are discussing herr. To address domestic workers (driver, watchman, housekeeper, cook and gardener) as servants is derogatory in my book, a term totally reprehensible. That's all.
 
 
 
Sure, to the first part..I see a connection in regards to "use of terms", but, did not expect that to connect here in this forum.
 
What we are discussing here is just the word "Servant"..to me it's not offensive..or the other words you mention here..any type of work/service is honorable to me.
 
Anyways, am done too.

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:Let us skip any biblical references pertaining to the use of the word "Servant". That has zero to do with what we are discussing herr. To address domestic workers (driver, watchman, housekeeper, cook and gardener) as servants is derogatory in my book, a term totally reprehensible. That's all.
 
 
 
Sure, to the first part..I see a connection in regards to "use of terms", but, did not expect that to connect here in this forum.
 
What we are discussing here is just the word "Servant"..to me it's not offensive..or the other words you mention here..any type of work/service is honorable to me.
 
Anyways, am done too.

We can always agree to disagree. :-)

Nila wrote:Lately my DD left her cup on the table after her milk. When I told her to take the cup to the kitchen and leave it at the sink and her reaction was..."Why should I do all the work?" I was like..."Huh????...wait till I ask you to do the dishes" She did offered to help me do the dishes and I told her "Noooooooooooooooooo!"

Anyways, she graduated Kindergarten....

Nila wrote:Hi Maria, Thanks for asking I am doing great. Summer is yet to start for me...it will from July till first week of Sep. Signed up for so many classes and it will be fun for everyone. Making a presentation for the family...(Yay! We have family meetings!) with all the issues and plans. LOL

Again...my DD, (I have decided not to talk about DD much...getting tired of my dd is this and my dd is that....) When kids graduate its a happy and sad feel...

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:so first names are not popular here i see.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:>>The way to treat your servant is to treat them like a worker in a factory.

Disagree - people that help you run a household are qualitatively different and have closer links to your family. While you may not break bread or roti with them, one should take more interest in their lives and troubles. And help with non-monetary intangibles as much as we can.

+1

reason is different though: the factory worker (in india) enjoys more rights than your domestic help does by law.

iTEDx wrote:
 
The point is not what the main "concern" of these people is. No one in their right mind will not find this offensive, actually that is an understatement, such statements are soul-killing.

By your logic,  then it is indeed  every person's, who comes to the US, main concern to earn money to make a living by doing hard work. Imagine if you are in a meeting, is it ok for your boss to shout down your throat something like  " Seva, just shut up and do as you are told! You are paid to follow orders and not to think like a CEO, because you people  obviously can never rise to that level. So you H1 fobbys, stay in your place or else I am gonna have to deport you! These Curry-slurpers stink up the cubicle everyday"

Actually, multiply that insult by 10 and thats how a Latino family, with kids and all, watching this series would feel.

Maria S wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:Let us skip any biblical references pertaining to the use of the word "Servant". That has zero to do with what we are discussing herr. To address domestic workers (driver, watchman, housekeeper, cook and gardener) as servants is derogatory in my book, a term totally reprehensible. That's all.
 
 
 
Sure, to the first part..I see a connection in regards to "use of terms", but, did not expect that to connect here in this forum.
 
What we are discussing here is just the word "Servant"..to me it's not offensive..or the other words you mention here..any type of work/service is honorable to me.
 
Anyways, am done too.

We can always agree to disagree. :-)

Sure GC..we can! And make up with a handshake, hug, whatever:)!

Just curious..if someone asks you "who is that in your home?" How do you respond..if it's someone who works as a cook, driver, multi-tasking..since you don't like the "s" word..won't say that again!

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:Let us skip any biblical references pertaining to the use of the word "Servant". That has zero to do with what we are discussing herr. To address domestic workers (driver, watchman, housekeeper, cook and gardener) as servants is derogatory in my book, a term totally reprehensible. That's all.
 
 
 
Sure, to the first part..I see a connection in regards to "use of terms", but, did not expect that to connect here in this forum.
 
What we are discussing here is just the word "Servant"..to me it's not offensive..or the other words you mention here..any type of work/service is honorable to me.
 
Anyways, am done too.

We can always agree to disagree. :-)

Sure GC..we can! And make up with a handshake, hug, whatever:)!

Just curious..if someone asks you "who is that in your home?" How do you respond..if it's someone who works as a cook, driver, multi-tasking..since you don't like the "s" word..won't say that again!

Besides mentioning their name, I generally use the term housekeeper or say, "ivanga enga veeta gavanikkkaranga" in Tamil. Perhaps because I grew up in Madurai, the heart of Tamil culture in my opinion, I was taught early on to be respectful to older staff in our house. While my parents and grandparents addressed them by name, we kids called Velamma as Periaathaa (big mama) since her granddaughter called her that. Our driver was Balu Mama. We had to be respectful and used "vanga, ponga" in conversation. The only exception was a "edu pidi" (beck & call) lad who ran minor errands for the household using our bicycle. Conversely the staff also addressed us using "vanga ponga" although we were very young boys. Not sure if it was a Madurai thing.

Kris wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:Let us skip any biblical references pertaining to the use of the word "Servant". That has zero to do with what we are discussing herr. To address domestic workers (driver, watchman, housekeeper, cook and gardener) as servants is derogatory in my book, a term totally reprehensible. That's all.
 
 
 
Sure, to the first part..I see a connection in regards to "use of terms", but, did not expect that to connect here in this forum.
 
What we are discussing here is just the word "Servant"..to me it's not offensive..or the other words you mention here..any type of work/service is honorable to me.
 
Anyways, am done too.

We can always agree to disagree. :-)

Sure GC..we can! And make up with a handshake, hug, whatever:)!

Just curious..if someone asks you "who is that in your home?" How do you respond..if it's someone who works as a cook, driver, multi-tasking..since you don't like the "s" word..won't say that again!

Besides mentioning their name, I generally use the term housekeeper or say, "ivanga enga veeta gavanikkkaranga" in Tamil. Perhaps because I grew up in Madurai, the heart of Tamil culture in my opinion, I was taught early on to be respectful to older staff in our house. While my parents and grandparents addressed them by name, we kids called Velamma as Periaathaa (big mama) since her granddaughter called her that. Our driver was Balu Mama. We had to be respectful and used "vanga, ponga" in conversation. The only exception was a "edu pidi" (beck & call) lad who ran minor errands for the household using our bicycle. Conversely the staff also addressed us using "vanga ponga" although we were very young boys. Not sure if it was a Madurai thing.

>>> Was this reference t0 her size necessary? I thought the idea was to be kind to the help. What next, hints at a jenny craig diet?

goodcitizn wrote:

Kris wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
We can always agree to disagree. :-)

Sure GC..we can! And make up with a handshake, hug, whatever:)!

Just curious..if someone asks you "who is that in your home?" How do you respond..if it's someone who works as a cook, driver, multi-tasking..since you don't like the "s" word..won't say that again!

Besides mentioning their name, I generally use the term housekeeper or say, "ivanga enga veeta gavanikkkaranga" in Tamil. Perhaps because I grew up in Madurai, the heart of Tamil culture in my opinion, I was taught early on to be respectful to older staff in our house. While my parents and grandparents addressed them by name, we kids called Velamma as Periaathaa (big mama) since her granddaughter called her that. Our driver was Balu Mama. We had to be respectful and used "vanga, ponga" in conversation. The only exception was a "edu pidi" (beck & call) lad who ran minor errands for the household using our bicycle. Conversely the staff also addressed us using "vanga ponga" although we were very young boys. Not sure if it was a Madurai thing.

>>> Was this reference t0 her size necessary? I thought the idea was to be kind to the help. What next, hints at a jenny craig diet?

No. She was one old lean, mean woman! Her granddaughter used to address her as Periaathaa to imply mom's mom since Velamma didn't like to be called Paati!

goodcitizn wrote:

Maria S wrote:

Sure GC..we can! And make up with a handshake, hug, whatever:)!

Just curious..if someone asks you "who is that in your home?" How do you respond..if it's someone who works as a cook, driver, multi-tasking..since you don't like the "s" word..won't say that again!

Besides mentioning their name, I generally use the term housekeeper or say, "ivanga enga veeta gavanikkkaranga" in Tamil. Perhaps because I grew up in Madurai, the heart of Tamil culture in my opinion, I was taught early on to be respectful to older staff in our house. While my parents and grandparents addressed them by name, we kids called Velamma as Periaathaa (big mama) since her granddaughter called her that. Our driver was Balu Mama. We had to be respectful and used "vanga, ponga" in conversation. The only exception was a "edu pidi" (beck & call) lad who ran minor errands for the household using our bicycle. Conversely the staff also addressed us using "vanga ponga" although we were very young boys. Not sure if it was a Madurai thing.