Patnaik for PM!!!

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:52 am

The way the Odisha govt. has prepared itself for the cyclone and ensured that there was minimum loss to life was simply remarkable. CONartists have already started to take credit for the success - for doing what??? MT shamelessly went one the TV to tell people of Odisha that Congress has helped them and will continue to help them!!!! People of Odisha are fortunate not to have CONmen ruling the state. All they would do is to allocate huge sums of money for relief, give lectures to the poor buggers, have lunch with them for a photo-op (and vomit it right afterwards) and pocket the money.

In Andhra, those agitating for a united state stopped their strike, decided to go back to work and help with the relief operations. They are true heroes. When they were agitating, there was no violence (except in Vizianagaram where politicians got involved). They mortgaged their jewelry and took loans to make ends meet. When asked how long they can go without pay, they all said that they will sacrifice for the unity of the state. The movement was not lead by politicians. In fact, politicians were targets of the agitators. CONmen can learn from these common people on how to behave in an enlightened way while going through difficulties.

MT can learn from the Odisha govt. and from the united Andhra agitators. Sometimes, working towards a higher cause is necessary. Selling the country for making a moronic son the PM is a sign of an ignorant and selfish person who should not be the leader of a major political party.

Garibi Hatao - my foot!

by truthbetold Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:40 am

If people and govt put their minds to it, India can overcome major disasters. Solutions are available from past examples around the world. The key component to make this happen is a respect for human life and a desire to act.

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:44 am

Oh yes, those brave powerplant workers who exercised their right to protest by denying the rest of their compatriots access to power for days at end, causing immense hardship to the poorest and weakest people in AP are indeed the greatest heroes. We should pin medals on their chest and wash their feet for their achievements and their concern for the fellow citizens.

People of Telangana will undoubtedly be so moved by their supreme sacrifice that they will give up their demands and come running back into the arms of Seemandhra. Jai Andhra Pradesh.

by truthbetold Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:13 pm

Merlot,
You had one too many a little too early. Your concern for common spikes up when it supports your Congress seva. Long live Mata seva.

by confuzzled dude Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:11 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Oh yes, those brave powerplant workers who exercised their right to protest by denying the rest of their compatriots access to power for days at end, causing immense hardship to the poorest and weakest people in AP are indeed the greatest heroes. We should pin medals on their chest and wash their feet for their achievements and their concern for the fellow citizens.

People of Telangana will undoubtedly be so moved by their supreme sacrifice that they will give up their demands and come running back into the arms of Seemandhra. Jai Andhra Pradesh.

How else do you think one should protest to show their disagreement? burndown RTC buses, trains and cause damage to other public properties. BTW, 'T' folks used similar tacticts during their protests. Chidambaram made a colossal mistake when he made that announcement back in '11.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:18 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Oh yes, those brave powerplant workers who exercised their right to protest by denying the rest of their compatriots access to power for days at end, causing immense hardship to the poorest and weakest people in AP are indeed the greatest heroes. We should pin medals on their chest and wash their feet for their achievements and their concern for the fellow citizens.

People of Telangana will undoubtedly be so moved by their supreme sacrifice that they will give up their demands and come running back into the arms of Seemandhra. Jai Andhra Pradesh.
How else do you think one should protest to show their disagreement? burndown RTC buses, trains and cause damage to other public properties. BTW, 'T' folks used similar tacticts during their protests. Chidambaram made a colossal mistake when he made that announcement back in '11.

think you should support Telengana bcz you can collaborate with Maulana Gaywala of Hubli's Karachi Project and establish your own fiefdom called "Charminar" project.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:52 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Oh yes, those brave powerplant workers who exercised their right to protest by denying the rest of their compatriots access to power for days at end, causing immense hardship to the poorest and weakest people in AP are indeed the greatest heroes. We should pin medals on their chest and wash their feet for their achievements and their concern for the fellow citizens.

People of Telangana will undoubtedly be so moved by their supreme sacrifice that they will give up their demands and come running back into the arms of Seemandhra. Jai Andhra Pradesh.
How else do you think one should protest to show their disagreement? burndown RTC buses, trains and cause damage to other public properties. BTW, 'T' folks used similar tacticts during their protests. Chidambaram made a colossal mistake when he made that announcement back in '11.

Shutting down power supply, IMO, is as much vandalism as burning down buses. And equally hurtful to innocent victims. The victims of this "show of disagreement" are the pregnant women, the newborns, the elderly and the seriously sick, all of whose care is life-threateningly disrupted when hospitals have to operate with candlelight. The victims are daily wage workers in industrial units which can't run for days on end, and their families which have to starve just so some engineer somewhere can express his unhappiness. This is another example of the "most important" right of free expression running roughshod on other people's even more important right to life and livelihood.

And all to what end?? Are those powerplant engineers' lives in danger? No. Are their livelihoods under threat? No. Is there some cultural hegemony that threatens to overwhelm their way of life? No. Is there anything at all that could adversely affect their way of life? NO. Their show of disagreement is over a politically-driven cleaving of one large administrative unit into two, which has zero impact on the common man. The SA agitation ranks as one of the most vacuuous, most morally bankrupt mass manipulations of all times. The sorriest sight through all this is that of smart, educated people - many of who are not even citizens of India any more - falling victim to that manipulation and showing irrationally violent emotional responses to a non-event. Sad.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:41 am

Seemandhra people are touched by your concern for their safety and well being. With friends like you, who needs enemies. They should take your advice and prostrate before Sonia and vote to make rahul their next pm.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:46 am

truthbetold wrote:Seemandhra people are touched by your concern for their safety and well being. With friends like you, who needs enemies. They should take your advice and prostrate before Sonia and vote to make rahul their next pm.

The references to Sonia etc are irrelevant. I see you have absolutely no rational counterpoints to what I said about the moral bankruptcy of the Samaikya Andhra agitation. So I guess it's time to bring out your infallible fallback tactic: namecalling.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:26 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Oh yes, those brave powerplant workers who exercised their right to protest by denying the rest of their compatriots access to power for days at end, causing immense hardship to the poorest and weakest people in AP are indeed the greatest heroes. We should pin medals on their chest and wash their feet for their achievements and their concern for the fellow citizens.

People of Telangana will undoubtedly be so moved by their supreme sacrifice that they will give up their demands and come running back into the arms of Seemandhra. Jai Andhra Pradesh.
How else do you think one should protest to show their disagreement? burndown RTC buses, trains and cause damage to other public properties. BTW, 'T' folks used similar tacticts during their protests. Chidambaram made a colossal mistake when he made that announcement back in '11.
Shutting down power supply, IMO, is as much vandalism as burning down buses. And equally hurtful to innocent victims. The victims of this "show of disagreement" are the pregnant women, the newborns, the elderly and the seriously sick, all of whose care is life-threateningly disrupted when hospitals have to operate with candlelight. The victims are daily wage workers in industrial units which can't run for days on end, and their families which have to starve just so some engineer somewhere can express his unhappiness. This is another example of the "most important" right of free expression running roughshod on other people's even more important right to life and livelihood.

And all to what end?? Are those powerplant engineers' lives in danger? No. Are their livelihoods under threat? No. Is there some cultural hegemony that threatens to overwhelm their way of life? No. Is there anything at all that could adversely affect their way of life? NO. Their show of disagreement is over a politically-driven cleaving of one large administrative unit into two, which has zero impact on the common man. The SA agitation ranks as one of the most vacuuous, most morally bankrupt mass manipulations of all times. The sorriest sight through all this is that of smart, educated people - many of who are not even citizens of India any more - falling victim to that manipulation and showing irrationally violent emotional responses to a non-event. Sad.

Sikular thinking reminds me of the Dracula movie. Once bitten by Dracula, people start helping Drakula bite others.

The Telangana "movement" is a bogus movement.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:40 am

VVPP Unkil, I bow to you for the sheer clarity of your thought. "Our" movement is always 100% genuine. "Their" movement is always bogus. We're right. They're wrong. End of Discussion.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:57 am

Merlot,
As always only your arguments are rational. I already responded to your hollow arguments in seemandhra post. Read it again. And unlike you I do not slide away from challenging issues with foolish name calling like uppili aunty or limperisted breastbeating etc.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:08 am

truthbetold wrote:And unlike you I do not slide away from challenging issues with foolish name calling like uppili aunty or limperisted breastbeating etc.

Oh yeah. I totally believe you.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:11 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
And all to what end?? Are those powerplant engineers' lives in danger? No. Are their livelihoods under threat? No. Is there some cultural hegemony that threatens to overwhelm their way of life? No. Is there anything at all that could adversely affect their way of life? NO. Their show of disagreement is over a politically-driven cleaving of one large administrative unit into two, which has zero impact on the common man. The SA agitation ranks as one of the most vacuuous, most morally bankrupt mass manipulations of all times. The sorriest sight through all this is that of smart, educated people - many of who are not even citizens of India any more - falling victim to that manipulation and showing irrationally violent emotional responses to a non-event. Sad.

I don't think you've answered my question as to what is the better form of showing disagreement, yes powerplant shutdown might be taking it too far but what else you expect when Govt.turns a blind eye and being completely biased one region of the state over the other. To answer your question, farmers [as a result] daily wage workers are the ones that would see immediate impact of state bifurcation.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
most morally bankrupt mass manipulations of all times. The sorriest sight through all this is that of smart, educated people - many of who are not even citizens of India any more - falling victim to that manipulation and showing irrationally violent emotional responses to a non-event. Sad

I'm afraid the exact words apply to 'T'agitation as well. Front runners of 'T' agitation had zero impact to their livelihoods, they were getting paid despite not showing for work for months and months.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:22 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
And all to what end?? Are those powerplant engineers' lives in danger? No. Are their livelihoods under threat? No. Is there some cultural hegemony that threatens to overwhelm their way of life? No. Is there anything at all that could adversely affect their way of life? NO. Their show of disagreement is over a politically-driven cleaving of one large administrative unit into two, which has zero impact on the common man. The SA agitation ranks as one of the most vacuuous, most morally bankrupt mass manipulations of all times. The sorriest sight through all this is that of smart, educated people - many of who are not even citizens of India any more - falling victim to that manipulation and showing irrationally violent emotional responses to a non-event. Sad.
I don't think you've answered my question as to what is the better form of showing disagreement

Oh, being rather protestor-unfriendly, I'm not very wellplaced to answer this. I suppose people can wear black bands, light candles, take out processions or whatever other zillion things peaceful protesters do. But while doing all this, people should have the sense to realize that while you are free to expess your point of view, others have the right to express their point of view as well and you can't always prevail.

confuzzled dude wrote:To answer your question, farmers [as a result] daily wage workers are the ones that would see immediate impact of state bifurcation.

Ah. Finally, a named aggrieved party. Care to educate me in a little more detail on how exactly farmers lose out?

confuzzled dude wrote:I'm afraid the exact words apply to 'T'agitation as well. Front runners of 'T' agitation had zero impact to their livelihoods, they were getting paid despite not showing for work for months and months.

Regardless of frontrunners, disruptions, violence etc, at least the agitation for Telangana statehood had a rationale. They could point to the positive outcomes from the carving up of other similarly neglected regions out of larger unwieldy states. But in the absence of any personal impact, what is the rationale for the violent protests in SA?

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:35 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Ah. Finally, a named aggrieved party. Care to educate me in a little more detail on how exactly farmers lose out?

this was discussed in depth in many posts a few months ago, I'm not going go over this again.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Regardless of frontrunners, disruptions, violence etc, at least the agitation for Telangana statehood had a rationale. They could point to the positive outcomes from the carving up of other similarly neglected regions out of larger unwieldy states. But in the absence of any personal impact, what is the rationale for the violent protests in SA?

All I can do is LOL. Neglected regions argument has been proven as a myth propagated by an old senile professor suffering from dementia. Again, What violent protests

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:48 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Ah. Finally, a named aggrieved party. Care to educate me in a little more detail on how exactly farmers lose out?
this was discussed in depth in many posts a few months ago, I'm not going go over this again.

Humor me. Two lines will suffice. I'm really trying hard to identify anyone (other than pols) who lose out by the carve up.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Regardless of frontrunners, disruptions, violence etc, at least the agitation for Telangana statehood had a rationale. They could point to the positive outcomes from the carving up of other similarly neglected regions out of larger unwieldy states. But in the absence of any personal impact, what is the rationale for the violent protests in SA?
All I can do is LOL. Neglected regions argument has been proven as a myth propagated by an old senile professor suffering from dementia.

True. The fantastic economic growth charted by Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand ets are that senile prof's demented dreams.

confuzzled dude wrote:Again, What violent protests

What violent protests indeed. The SA cops were undoubtedly firing rubber bullets and imposing curfews all over the place just to make those peaceful candlelight vigil holding protestors look bad.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:56 am

What curfew? One city. That too because of a fight between kiran reddy and botsa, both Congress leaders.
Merlot, next time check facts.
.

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:01 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Ah. Finally, a named aggrieved party. Care to educate me in a little more detail on how exactly farmers lose out?
this was discussed in depth in many posts a few months ago, I'm not going go over this again.
Humor me. Two lines will suffice. I'm really trying hard to identify anyone (other than pols) who lose out by the carve up.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Regardless of frontrunners, disruptions, violence etc, at least the agitation for Telangana statehood had a rationale. They could point to the positive outcomes from the carving up of other similarly neglected regions out of larger unwieldy states. But in the absence of any personal impact, what is the rationale for the violent protests in SA?
All I can do is LOL. Neglected regions argument has been proven as a myth propagated by an old senile professor suffering from dementia.
True. The fantastic economic growth charted by Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand ets are that senile prof's demented dreams.

confuzzled dude wrote:Again, What violent protests
What violent protests indeed. The SA cops were undoubtedly [url=/news/telangana-power-supply-train-services-hit-protests-turn-violent/1179182/]firing rubber bullets and imposing curfews [/url]all over the place just to make those peaceful candlelight vigil holding protestors look bad.

Merlot, in my opinion carving out Telangana is a bad idea. There are several reasons for why i think so. One reason is: The river water (for instance of the Godavari) flows from Telangana to Coastal Andhra. We are looking at a situation like the Cauvery water dispute between Karnataka and TN once Telangana is carved out. I think this is what CD had in mind when he said farmers in Coastal Andhra may suffer.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:15 am

Rashmun,
more contentious problem is Krishna water distribution between rayalseema and t area. It is complicated by the river flows onthe borders of districts. United state solved most of these problems by balancing demands for water. Also throw water for hyd into that mix.
Search under kiran kumar reddy. He presented the complications to Congress leadership which completely ignored it.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:35 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Humor me. Two lines will suffice. I'm really trying hard to identify anyone (other than pols) who lose out by the carve up.

True. The fantastic economic growth charted by Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand ets are that senile prof's demented dreams.

firing rubber bullets and imposing curfews [/url]all over the place just to make those peaceful candlelight vigil holding protestors look bad.

I'm not familiar with the landscape of the states mentioned above but I am with the state I hail from. How are U.P and M.P are doing? Like TBT has indicated, river water sharing will be very complex, especially Krishna waters, downstream farmers in Krishna delta have been suffering since Almatti dam went live and if you add another layer on top of that it would be akin to adding insult to an injury. Just to give you an example back in July/Aug when 'T' state announcement was made 'T' politicians went out of norm and made sure that Ngarjuna Sagar waters were released to the 'T' side first. Even if we agree (for argument sake) that small states will help improving underdeveloped areas, development of one region doesn't need to come at the expense of other region. If we go development route the best solution would be to divide A.P into 4 states as there are two other regions in A.P that are backward than the 'T' region. BTW, Karimnagar district which is located in 'T' region is the new rice bowl of A.P.

You are taking rather a simplistic approach to equate a movement that has been going on across the state for more than 2 months to a couple of stray incidents which IMO is not a fair evaluation. Compare this to the incidents occurred in '69 when thugs severed breasts of Andhra women in Hyderabad. I called Jayashankar a senile professor suffering from dementia because these guys were active in '69, come up with certain baggage and are not open to or do not want see current realities. As I've said many times it is sad to see current generation fell prey to the machinations of these old senile idiots who do not want to come out of their preconceived biases

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:46 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Humor me. Two lines will suffice. I'm really trying hard to identify anyone (other than pols) who lose out by the carve up.

True. The fantastic economic growth charted by Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand ets are that senile prof's demented dreams.

firing rubber bullets and imposing curfews [/url]all over the place just to make those peaceful candlelight vigil holding protestors look bad.
I'm not familiar with the landscape of the states mentioned above but I am with the state I hail from. How are U.P and M.P are doing? Like TBT has indicated, river water sharing will be very complex, especially Krishna waters, downstream farmers in Krishna delta have been suffering since Almatti dam went live and if you add another layer on top of that it would be akin to adding insult to an injury. Just to give you an example back in July/Aug when 'T' state announcement was made 'T' politicians went out of norm and made sure that Ngarjuna Sagar waters were released to the 'T' side first. Even if we agree (for argument sake) that small states will help improving underdeveloped areas, development of one region doesn't need to come at the expense of other region. If we go development route the best solution would be to divide A.P into 4 states as there are two other regions in A.P that are backward than the 'T' region. BTW, Karimnagar district which is located in 'T' region is the new rice bowl of A.P.

You are taking rather a simplistic approach to equate a movement that has been going on across the state for more than 2 months to a couple of stray incidents which IMO is not a fair evaluation. Compare this to the incidents occurred in '69 when thugs severed breasts of Andhra women in Hyderabad. I called Jayaram a senile professor suffering from dementia because these guys were active in '69, come up with certain baggage and are not open to or do not want see current realities. As I've said many times it is sad to see current generation fell prey to the machinations of these old senile idiots who do not want to come out of their preconceived biases

River water sharing is complex of the highest order in India. India and its population live on rivers. The evolution of India is based on rivers.

There are no dams across Ganges - except Farakka - which is not actually a dam. 2 other dams are built on tributaries. for most part Ganges flows along the plains with dense population and not conducive to dam building. Hence Uttaranchal, Jharkhand and Chattisgarh division did not have to worry about river waters. They were so backward they could only improve.

Dams across even small rivers are problem between Kerala and TN. Cauvery - no need for me to explain.

Krishna, Godhavari, Tapti are major rivers and irrigation and livelihood far more dependent on these than Ganges. These are issues that cannot be solved overnight - if at all - between Andhra, Telengana, Maharashtra, MP, Orissa, and Chattisgarh.

Whatever gain Telengana is hoping to gain through industrialization will be lost by decline in Andhra agriculture.

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:56 am

truthbetold wrote:Rashmun,
more contentious problem is Krishna water distribution between rayalseema and t area. It is complicated by the river flows onthe borders of districts. United state solved most of these problems by balancing demands for water. Also throw water for hyd into that mix.
Search under kiran kumar reddy. He presented the complications to Congress leadership which completely ignored it.

the Cong version is that every political party with the exception of the CPM was for separation of Telangana from AP and that Jagan and CBN had given this in writing to the Congress that they were for separate Telangana. Now they are backtracking after seeing the protests against the formation of Telangana. (BJP has always been in favor of separate Telangana.) With respect to Kiran, Cong says that he had told them that he would share his concerns but that he would leave the final decision to the high command but now he is backtracking from his earlier assurance. Cong says that all these people like CBN, Jagan, etc. are political opportunists. Your comments? Why should you be angry only with Cong and not with Jagan and CBN for earlier accepting separate Telangana? CBN still seems confused and is refusing to say whether he is for separate Telangana or not. I read his statement where he said that he is unable to choose between three of his children.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:30 pm

Rashmun,
kiran, cbn and jagan are saying the same thing. All of them are aware that.t state is a reality. Not due to sonia's verdict but the trust between both sides is completely lost. You cannot force people to stay together.

The parties gave consent to bifurcation with the hope that govt.and Congress will take a timely decision and follow a sensible path. Sonia cunningly waited till 9 months before elections and announced the decision abruptly to gain from the positive fallout in t area.

Congress could have decided the issue ( it would not have been a surprise) but followed up with discussions with both sides. By announcing t decision so abruptly with no answers for seemandhra, people were surprised and lost confidence in congress. Following the decision, instead of using the vast Congress machinary, sonia shunned Congress leaders making them antagonistic.

More in the next post.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:46 pm

Rashmun wrote: the Cong version is that every political party with the exception of the CPM was for separation of Telangana from AP and that Jagan and CBN had given this in writing to the Congress that they were for separate Telangana. Now they are backtracking after seeing the protests against the formation of Telangana. (BJP has always been in favor of separate Telangana.) With respect to Kiran, Cong says that he had told them that he would share his concerns but that he would leave the final decision to the high command but now he is backtracking from his earlier assurance. Cong says that all these people like CBN, Jagan, etc. are political opportunists. Your comments? Why should you be angry only with Cong and not with Jagan and CBN for earlier accepting separate Telangana? CBN still seems confused and is refusing to say whether he is for separate Telangana or not. I read his statement where he said that he is unable to choose between three of his children.

High command is as culpable as anyone for this debacle. Why did they choose to ignore Sri Krishna commission's report which essentially said bifurcation is not good for the heath of the state. They can try shifting blame to the local leaders but they know that local leaders are mere puppets who dance to their whims. Also, deep in their hearts they're aware that congress got elected twice at YSR's face value. I don't think Sonia or Rahul can influence many voters in A.P on their own hence looking for ways around.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:51 pm

Rashmun,
cont from earlier post.
What was the biggest problem with Sonia's greedy timing and public announcement?
In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital. No other state has the problem of river aster to the extent new States will have. Krishna poses the most complicated problem in modern India.
rayalseema will be completely dry without Krishna hydro projects.hyd poses a serious security problem. That problem was pushed into background since last few decades. Now it rears its ugly head again. See Cd post for an example.
I can go on. But nowhere the division will take hope from one area and reduce their living standards.
so leaders cautioned Sonia and diggy idiot. But Sonia decided that imperial interests are more important than seemandhra peoples concern. Congress leadership. Also underestimated the peoples reaction. Everyone including me were surprised the intensity, depth, and spread of the movement. Cbn, jagan and kiran, while not unhappy, did not predict the scope of peoples reaction.
The leaders followed people. Most observers believe that United andhra is an initial slogan to rally people. Long term goal is regain some of the negotiating power that Sonia pawned away by preannouncing t state. Now t leaders have no reason to negotiate and share. This has already resulted in loss of options on hyd. Congress leadership having made a Himalayan blunder failed to accept their mistake and take steps to mitigate the situation. Instead diggy idiot and Sonia were aggressive to squash other opinions. Who cares if people suffer as long the morpnic son becomes pm.

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:00 pm

truthbetold wrote:Rashmun,
cont from earlier post.
What was the biggest problem with Sonia's greedy timing and public announcement?
In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital. No other state has the problem of river aster to the extent new States will have. Krishna poses the most complicated problem in modern India.
rayalseema will be completely dry without Krishna hydro projects.hyd poses a serious security problem. That problem was pushed into background since last few decades. Now it rears its ugly head again. See Cd post for an example.
I can go on. But nowhere the division will take hope from one area and reduce their living standards.
so leaders cautioned Sonia and diggy idiot. But Sonia decided that imperial interests are more important than seemandhra peoples concern. Congress leadership. Also underestimated the peoples reaction. Everyone including me were surprised the intensity, depth, and spread of the movement. Cbn, jagan and kiran, while not unhappy, did not predict the scope of peoples reaction.

with respect to Hyd, one solution is to have it as common capital for Telangana and Coastal Andhra just like Chandigarh is the common capital of Punjab and Haryana. Initially, Chandigarh was also supposed to be the common capital for 10 years only but then later it was decided to just retain it as common capital permanently. The same can be done for Hyd. With respect to Rayalaseema water sharing with Telangana, one solution is to incorporate two of the four Rayalaseema districts--which are adjoining Telangana-- in Telangana and keep the other two in Coastal Andhra.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:09 pm

truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.

Maharashtra, Bombay.

by Hellsangel Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:10 pm

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.

You would have thought that the Indian planners would have learnt a lesson or two from the US planners and tried to keep the largest city and the capital city separate.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:with respect to Hyd, one solution is to have it as common capital for Telangana and Coastal Andhra just like Chandigarh is the common capital of Punjab and Haryana. Initially, Chandigarh was also supposed to be the common capital for 10 years only but then later it was decided to just retain it as common capital permanently. The same can be done for Hyd. With respect to Rayalaseema water sharing with Telangana, one solution is to incorporate two of the four Rayalaseema districts--which are adjoining Telangana-- in Telangana and keep the other two in Coastal Andhra.

It is not possible geographically. I think it is a better bet to merge Nalgonda & Mahaboob nagar districts to SA region which would encompass entire Krishna river track than merging districts from 'R' region to 'T'. This way Krishna waters would be controlled by SA state and Godavari by 'T' state and enables the possibility of having HYd as joint capital, of course, it won't serve political interests of High command.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:23 pm

truthbetold wrote:Most observers believe that United andhra is an initial slogan to rally people. Long term goal is regain some of the negotiating power that Sonia pawned away by preannouncing t state.

If all this is about is creating negotiation leverage for Seemandhra, that would have been better accomplished if Seemandhra leaders had come to an agreement across party lines, with a common set of demands from Seemandhra to Telangana and the center. Their negotiating leverage would have been stronger if they said, "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.

IMO, the protesters started asking for samaikyAndhra not because they were politically astute "creators of negotiating leverage," but because they did not want to "allow" Telangana to go its own way. Now they are finding out that Telangana did not need their permission. For a long time now, samaikyAndhra has been a fig leaf for the perpetuation of Seemandhra dominance over the united state. If what the people and leaders of Seemandhra truly wanted was samaikyAndhra, their behaviors over the last few decades would have been very different. We would have seen a preemptive "package" of development initiatives for Telangana about ten years ago, and both YSR and CBN would have come out and stood together for a united AP as a common goal. That would have nipped the latest Telangana agitation in the bud. Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:25 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.
You would have thought that the Indian planners would have learnt a lesson or two from the US planners and tried to keep the largest city and the capital city separate.

Yes, but our political bosses don't want to live in small, underdeveloped cities.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:28 pm

Rashmun,
Your heart may be in the right place. Cabinet note on bifurcation already clarified hyd status. It will be handed over to t area.

capital is not a place for politicians to meet. In Indian context it is likely to generate most of the States revenue. It is not sensible for seemandhra to hang around hyd after first few years. They need to take the long journey of three decades to build their own capital and a source of significant revenue.

Seemandhra and t broke up due to historical social differences. Rayalseema is a very distinct entity from t area and there is no reason to believe such contrived arrangement. R people feel that their perched land is better than a future disruption.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:30 pm

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.

it is Gujarat that wanted to seperate. Later Maharashtra joined in. Not the same.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:30 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:with respect to Hyd, one solution is to have it as common capital for Telangana and Coastal Andhra just like Chandigarh is the common capital of Punjab and Haryana. Initially, Chandigarh was also supposed to be the common capital for 10 years only but then later it was decided to just retain it as common capital permanently. The same can be done for Hyd. With respect to Rayalaseema water sharing with Telangana, one solution is to incorporate two of the four Rayalaseema districts--which are adjoining Telangana-- in Telangana and keep the other two in Coastal Andhra.
It is not possible geographically. I think it is a better bet to merge Nalgonda & Mahaboob nagar districts to SA region which would encompass entire Krishna river track than merging districts from 'R' region to 'T'. This way Krishna waters would be controlled by SA state and Godavari by 'T' state and enables the possibility of having HYd as joint capital, of course, it won't serve political interests of High command.

Nalgonda is the heart of Telangana; there can be no Telangana without Nalgonda.

I am not sure if it was guruvu-gaaru or Indophile who suggested it earlier -- two states called Krishna (or Dakshinandhra) and Godavari (or Uttarandhra), encompassing the entire valley of each river. That is, Krishna state will have the four Rayalaseema districts, Mahabubnagar, Nalgonda, Nellore, Prakasam, Guntur, and Krishna districts, and Godavari state has all other districts. And Hyderabad is the permanent common capital. That would be a viable way to break the large state into two more manageable units.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:38 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.
it is Gujarat that wanted to seperate. Later Maharashtra joined in. Not the same.

Not true. Most of the agitation occurred on the Maharashtra side.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:39 pm

The state broke up because of historical social issues. The proposals to draw new borders around social alliances are futile. They only lead to future estrangement. Economic solutions have to follow the heart and not the other way around.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:01 pm

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.
it is Gujarat that wanted to seperate. Later Maharashtra joined in. Not the same.
Not true. Most of the agitation occurred on the Maharashtra side.

Maha Gujarat conference 1948.
Samyukta Maharashtra started 1956.
Twists and turns later.
there was a desire from Gujarat to seperate. So Gujarat is getting something. What is seemandhra getting by being pushed out of hyd?

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:17 pm

Idéfix wrote: "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.

Does this logic apply to 'T' folks as well? If you leave the practical application alone for a minute, the very first demand of joint capital has been denied. 'T' folks don't want to budge a bit they wan't to have cake and eat it too. Some call it highway robbery.

Idéfix wrote:
Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.

I despise those old idiots for this kind of backward thinking, you won't take state forward with this line of thinking, this not 1970s. What %ge of the jobs in Hyd, in this day and age, amount to public sector jobs.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:33 pm

Idefix,
first if kcr ot t leaders have problems, it is with the leaders of political parties. Why are all seemandhra people and employees labeled as foreigners? Why are bad policies of politicians equated with exploitation by people of another region?
Backwardness is common to t or r or coastal area and solution lies in improving politics and economic distribution.
t leaders used a historical story and used the backwardness to stroke emotions to divide people.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:41 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.
Does this logic apply to 'T' folks as well?

If T folks are asking for something they don't want, then it applies to them too. Your negotiation leverage improves when you are clear on what you want, and can build a cross-party political consensus in favor of those objectives. Telangana leaders have been more successful at doing that than Seemandhra leaders so far.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.
I despise those old idiots for this kind of backward thinking, you won't take state forward with this line of thinking, this not 1970s. What %ge of the jobs in Hyd, in this day and age, amount to public sector jobs.

If these are really minor issues, it should be easy to fix them. Why did successive governments led by people from Seemandhra fail to take care of it? They could have displayed the sort of forward-thinking you mention, and that would have taken away ammunition from separatists.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:45 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:In Indian history no state was divided where those who want seperation also got the developed capital.
Maharashtra, Bombay.
it is Gujarat that wanted to seperate. Later Maharashtra joined in. Not the same.
Not true. Most of the agitation occurred on the Maharashtra side.
Maha Gujarat conference 1948.
Samyukta Maharashtra started 1956.
Twists and turns later.
there was a desire from Gujarat to seperate. So Gujarat is getting something. What is seemandhra getting by being pushed out of hyd?

http://www.ciil-ebooks.net/html/langMove/samyukta.html

The year 1946 marked the beginning of a really vigorous campaign in support of the cause of Samyukta Maharashtra. The demand was revived at the thirtieth session of the Marathi Sahitya Parishad held at Belgaum on 12th may 1946. In his Presidential Address, G.T.Modkholkar urged the Maharashtra Congress leaders to emulate their colleagues like Pattabhi Sitaramayya and Rangarao Diwakar who were working with great zeal for the formation of linguistic provinces (Madkholkar 1946:77). Shankarrao Deo and K.M.Jedhe, two senior Congress leaders responded favourably and re in a Deo became the most prominent leader of an all-party organization called the Samyukta Maharashtra Parishad.

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Idéfix wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.
Does this logic apply to 'T' folks as well?
If T folks are asking for something they don't want, then it applies to them too. Your negotiation leverage improves when you are clear on what you want, and can build a cross-party political consensus in favor of those objectives. Telangana leaders have been more successful at doing that than Seemandhra leaders so far.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.
I despise those old idiots for this kind of backward thinking, you won't take state forward with this line of thinking, this not 1970s. What %ge of the jobs in Hyd, in this day and age, amount to public sector jobs.
If these are really minor issues, it should be easy to fix them. Why did successive governments led by people from Seemandhra fail to take care of it? They could have displayed the sort of forward-thinking you mention, and that would have taken away ammunition from separatists.

CBN and YSR were from Rayalaseema and not Seemandhra.

by confuzzled dude Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:08 pm

Idéfix wrote:If T folks are asking for something they don't want, then it applies to them too. Your negotiation leverage improves when you are clear on what you want, and can build a cross-party political consensus in favor of those objectives. Telangana leaders have been more successful at doing that than Seemandhra leaders so far.

Which is the very premise of this thread, there are no leaders leading United Andhra movement; besides it is just 2 months old as oppossed to a decade long 'T' struggle. Like the other poster mentioned Seemandhra agitations are first & formemost backlash against their own political leaders.

Idéfix wrote:
If these are really minor issues, it should be easy to fix them. Why did successive governments led by people from Seemandhra fail to take care of it? They could have displayed the sort of forward-thinking you mention, and that would have taken away ammunition from separatists.

They couldn't finish construction of many dams for > 60 years. That's how our government functions, at [worse than] snail's pace but to tag them as biases towards people of one region is like that saying goes "masi pusi maaredukaya cheyyadam"; If my memory serves me right, Sri Krishna Commission said such cases were marginal and exist in non-Hyd zones as well.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:12 pm

Rashmun,
the coastal areas generally also identified as andhra. The combination of rayala"seema" and andhra together are called seemandhra.

by Idéfix Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:16 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:They couldn't finish construction of many dams for > 60 years. That's how our government functions, at [worse than] snail's pace but to tag them as biases towards people of one region is like that saying goes "masi pusi maaredukaya cheyyadam".

Building a dam takes a lot more work than reassigning employees. Twenty five years is plenty of time to reassign employees who were illegally hired, and hire new ones in their place. The reason neither CBN nor YSR did it is that they did not want to upset the AP NGOs association, and they didn't think Telangana NGOs will make a big stink if they don't implement the 1986 GO fully.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Idefix,
I personally think t area water is not well exploited. So I talked to a retirex chief engineer about this issue.
The andhra area had canals from British times. Delta agri farming was more irrigation oriented. T area in earlier days was more rain dependent "metta ".
So the early projects were demanded by the farmers of deltas of Krishna and godavari.
One of the peculiarities of t area is that rivers are lower than most agricultural areas requiring lift irrigation. Cost of major lift irrigation was high and some of the technology available today was not there in 60s and 70s.
Ysr did propose several hydro projects when money and technology became available.

Now we both know that reality is not that innocent. Delta farmer power probably played a role.
T noise did force many of the latest actions. In between sri ram sagar became a reality and Karim nagar prospered.
Again some real and some perceived grievence allowed the kcr types to create a t movement.
Seemandhra leaders were cocksure of their influence with Congress highcommand and did not raise a finger to diffuse t concerns.

by b_A Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:31 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.
Does this logic apply to 'T' folks as well?
If T folks are asking for something they don't want, then it applies to them too. Your negotiation leverage improves when you are clear on what you want, and can build a cross-party political consensus in favor of those objectives. Telangana leaders have been more successful at doing that than Seemandhra leaders so far.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.
I despise those old idiots for this kind of backward thinking, you won't take state forward with this line of thinking, this not 1970s. What %ge of the jobs in Hyd, in this day and age, amount to public sector jobs.
If these are really minor issues, it should be easy to fix them. Why did successive governments led by people from Seemandhra fail to take care of it? They could have displayed the sort of forward-thinking you mention, and that would have taken away ammunition from separatists.
CBN and YSR were from Rayalaseema and not Seemandhra.

Rashmun ,
Most of the normal people don't indulge in discussions about which they have no clue.
Then , there are the internet "pundits" who butt-in any discussion that they find.

by Guest Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:35 pm

b_A wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: "We respect our brother's wish to separate from the joint family setup, even if we disagree with the need for it. We won't stand in the way of separation. But we need to negotiate key issues like water, capital, and revenue sharing before we part ways." By asking for something they don't actually want any more ("samaikyAndhra") they are actually hurting their own leverage.
Does this logic apply to 'T' folks as well?
If T folks are asking for something they don't want, then it applies to them too. Your negotiation leverage improves when you are clear on what you want, and can build a cross-party political consensus in favor of those objectives. Telangana leaders have been more successful at doing that than Seemandhra leaders so far.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Instead, long-standing issues have been left to fester (e.g. implementing the GO that would repatriate SA employees working in Telangana area jobs), and that has provided fertile ground for KCR to sow his seeds of discontent.
I despise those old idiots for this kind of backward thinking, you won't take state forward with this line of thinking, this not 1970s. What %ge of the jobs in Hyd, in this day and age, amount to public sector jobs.
If these are really minor issues, it should be easy to fix them. Why did successive governments led by people from Seemandhra fail to take care of it? They could have displayed the sort of forward-thinking you mention, and that would have taken away ammunition from separatists.
CBN and YSR were from Rayalaseema and not Seemandhra.
Rashmun ,
Most of the normal people don't indulge in discussions about which they have no clue.
Then , there are the internet "pundits" who butt-in any discussion that they find.

Are you from seemandhra or Telangana ? Or do you wish to keep this a secret?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:38 pm

b_A wrote:
Rashmun wrote:CBN and YSR were from Rayalaseema and not Seemandhra.
Rashmun ,
Most of the normal people don't indulge in discussions about which they have no clue.
Then , there are the internet "pundits" who butt-in any discussion that they find.

So to which category Rashmunullah belongs to?

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