Strongest bond: religion or language?

by sambarvada Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:15 pm

http://www.dawn.com/2011/07/02/strongest-bond-religion-or-language.html

Once travelling on the Rajdhani Express from Delhi to Mumbai, I was in a compartment with an elderly Muslim from Kerala and a Hindu couple from North India with two daughters.

The Keralite was a pleasant gentleman and generous with his smiles but we could not communicate with each other. On the other hand, the Punjabi gentleman and his wife from the UP were ones with whom I had long conversations. When the husband used a Punjabi word in his conversation, the wife said “Dekhye hamari shadi ko dus saal hogaye hain lekin ye Hindi mein Punjabi mila dete hain.” (Look, we have been married for ten years but he still adds Punjabi words to Hindi). A bell rang in my mind and I recalled a similar ‘complain’ voiced by an Urdu-speaking Pakistani about his wife, whose mother tongue happened to be Punjabi. Both cases could best be described as sheer banter. There wasn’t anything serious about the ‘accusations’.

Back to my fellow passengers on board the Rajdhani, we had interesting baat cheet on a wide variety of subjects from music to mothers-in-law. They had never visited Pakistan so I had many queries to answer. They enjoyed PTV plays and remembered more titles than I did.

Another point to remember is that languages also reflect the culture of the people who speak those tongues. Example: a common prayer for one’s daughter in the northern part of the subcontinent is “Sada suhagan raho” (May you always have a husband to take care of you), whether the person expressing the wish be a Hindu, Muslim or a Sikh.

Many years ago at the film festival in Penang (Malaysia), two of us from Pakistan, me and Satish Anand, who is into films and television production, were constantly in the company of North Indian delegates, The leader of the Indian delegation was Sunil Dutt, a thorough gentleman. A member of the French delegation who saw us together for four days commented that while our armed forces were exchanging fire on the LoC every day, there we were a picture of camaraderie. “I can’t understand this,” he commented, to which Dutt said, “Nor can we for that matter.” Interestingly enough, while the North Indians bonded with us, their countrymen from the South were seen together in a separate group.

People who think of linguistic affinities being stronger than religious similarities argue that one doesn’t practice one’s religion all the time but one speaks a language all through one’s waking hours.

What do my readers have to say on this issue? As for me, all I have to say is that a person is born into a religion and also into a family which speaks a certain language. That’s where he or she has no choice.

by Kris Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:34 pm

The problem is Pakistan wants to view itself as part of the middle east and distance itself from India, but has little in common with the Arabs (who also look down on it). Anyway, in the abstract, you would think language should have a more common pull, but India is evolving otherwise. At least among the urban middle class, english provides a connection and more importantly there is a developed sense of being Indian (culturally speaking), which is getting stronger as time goes by. Indians are also able to maintain their regional identities, while at the same time comfortable with a national identity.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:32 am

Kris,

I think culture is stronger of all bonds. Language is a strong bond but religion provides so much structure, your normal activities may make you feel like religion has more power over you. Indian culture is a mixture of local language, Hindi and /or English, Hindu culture, influence of Islamic culture and a small does of western culture (at least for middle class). There may be huge variations in this culture but there is lot of common ground to compete with language and religion.

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:15 am

I think the the language angle may tug at some heartstrings (partition generation- remember the Lahore urdu poetry contests?) and in general you would even expect to be a very dominant factor (to it, east and west germany eventually reunifying), but between India and Pakistan, too much water has flown under the bridge. They have also been pulled into different orbits- India into the developing world sphere and pakistan into the islamic fundamentalist sphere. This just has made the chasm that much wider. Fringe elements aside, yes, there is such a thing as a strong indian identity

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:13 am

" language angle may tug at some heartstrings "

Strongly agree.

" India and Pakistan, too much water has flown under the bridge."

Unlike Germany, India was divided by forces from within. Those forces have not run the course testing and learning the bitter historical lessons. The culture across the border from India is such that it needs to go multiple vicious self destructive storms before people can realize their historical follies.

Sensible political leadership, economic growth seem to be prerequisites of any Indo-Pak reconciliation. Economic growth may not come until Pak's abandonment of "India is the mortal enemy' philosophy. Catch 22.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:09 pm

truthbetold wrote:Kris,

I think culture is stronger of all bonds. Language is a strong bond but religion provides so much structure, your normal activities may make you feel like religion has more power over you. Indian culture is a mixture of local language, Hindi and /or English, Hindu culture, influence of Islamic culture and a small does of western culture (at least for middle class). There may be huge variations in this culture but there is lot of common ground to compete with language and religion.

I think it is culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Question

Right?

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:21 pm

"culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Right?"

No disagreement there. I think Kris is trying probe deeper and find the role of URDU in Indo Pak equation.

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:37 pm

TBT,

One other thing to ponder that may be causing the divergence between india and pakistan..

Is India becoming 'south indianized' with the economic vibrancy of the south? I am not sure it is that simple. There are also other factors such as the increasing assertiveness of hinduism, the post partition generation in the border areas pretty much aging and the next generation growing up with a dim view of pakistan (and for good reason) etc, but economics is a huge driver.

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:47 pm

meant 'partition generation' not 'post partition generation'

by confuzzled dude Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:22 pm

[quote="truthbetold"]"culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Right?"

No disagreement there. I think Kris is trying probe deeper and find the role of URDU in Indo Pak equation.[/quote

color of skin, religion....... language, in that order. A White German who can't speak a sentence of English is more likely to assimilate (welcomed) into the mainstream America than an Indian who is fluent in English.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:42 pm

[quote="Kris"]TBT,

"Is India becoming 'south indianized' with the economic vibrancy of the south? I am not sure it is that simple. "

It is not that simple. South Indian example has helped shape some economic thinking in many northern states but India is still far from being shaped by SI culture. Bihar is on the way but UP is still a problem. Pak on the other hand lost a couple of generations to religious strife and slid back from economic progress. Till it pushes religion to a honorable but back seat role, Pak's chances of any forward movement are suspect and highly reversible.

by Silhouette Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:31 pm

none of the above. for a religious nut it's religion, for a language fanatic it's language, and apparently for some it's caste and caste alone. these are subjective issues and vary according to each individual.

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:22 pm

Silhouette wrote:none of the above. for a religious nut it's religion, for a language fanatic it's language, and apparently for some it's caste and caste alone. these are subjective issues and vary according to each individual.

>>>> In general, yes, but right now there is a certain dynamic in pakistan that is religion-driven. This overwhelms other identities. The original article talks about a cross-border linguistic affinity, which may have been significant in the past, but is on the wane now.

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:21 pm

[quote="confuzzled dude"]

truthbetold wrote:"culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Right?"

No disagreement there. I think Kris is trying probe deeper and find the role of URDU in Indo Pak equation.[/quote

color of skin, religion....... language, in that order. A White German who can't speak a sentence of English is more likely to assimilate (welcomed) into the mainstream America than an Indian who is fluent in English.

>>>> Then why did they fight the Germans in a world war? Why was there a cold war with the Russians? Why did the Germans side with the Japanese? Why did they elect Obama over McCain? Loyalties are based on common interests.

by confuzzled dude Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:32 pm

[quote="Kris"]

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:"culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Right?"

No disagreement there. I think Kris is trying probe deeper and find the role of URDU in Indo Pak equation.[/quote

color of skin, religion....... language, in that order. A White German who can't speak a sentence of English is more likely to assimilate (welcomed) into the mainstream America than an Indian who is fluent in English.

>>>> Then why did they fight the Germans in a world war? Why was there a cold war with the Russians? Why did the Germans side with the Japanese? Why did they elect Obama over McCain? Loyalties are based on common interests.

Are we confusing political interests that tend to shift every morning, noon and night with predilection of general populace. Obama won because colored people overwhelmingly voted for him(case in point, Philly, every black person in Philly voted for him which pulled him out of the waters in PA)

by Kris Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:54 pm

[quote="confuzzled dude"]

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:"culture,language and religion, that makes a strong common bond. Right?"

No disagreement there. I think Kris is trying probe deeper and find the role of URDU in Indo Pak equation.[/quote

color of skin, religion....... language, in that order. A White German who can't speak a sentence of English is more likely to assimilate (welcomed) into the mainstream America than an Indian who is fluent in English.

>>>> Then why did they fight the Germans in a world war? Why was there a cold war with the Russians? Why did the Germans side with the Japanese? Why did they elect Obama over McCain? Loyalties are based on common interests.

Are we confusing political interests that tend to shift every morning, noon and night with predilection of general populace. Obama won because colored people overwhelmingly voted for him(case in point, Philly, every black person in Philly voted for him which pulled him out of the waters in PA)

>>>>What percentage of the US population is "colored"? Assuming all of them were in Obama's camp, for him to pull off a victory, enough whites had to be on his side i.e. not on McCain's side, ignoring for a minute the other "mainstream" candidates who got sidelined along the way. The thesis of racial solidarity does not hold up, if that many whites bought into him. Incidentally, I am not a big fan of his, the way things are unfolding, but that is a tangential point.On your other point, political loyalties may shift, but the ruthlessness of the manner in which ww2 was prosecuted (Stalin especially vis a vis Germany) tells you there was no love lost, racial kinship notwithstanding

by Silhouette Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:43 pm

Kris wrote:
Silhouette wrote:none of the above. for a religious nut it's religion, for a language fanatic it's language, and apparently for some it's caste and caste alone. these are subjective issues and vary according to each individual.

>>>> In general, yes, but right now there is a certain dynamic in pakistan that is religion-driven. This overwhelms other identities. The original article talks about a cross-border linguistic affinity, which may have been significant in the past, but is on the wane now.

in the specific context of pakistan, i would agree with you to a large extent. however, i come across plenty of north indian ABDs who are quite tight with their pakistani counterparts. i'm almost embarrassed to say they bond over samosas and bollywood (my school had one such club in fact).

as for the original article, i am somewhat skeptical. all the older north indians that i personally know, pretty much all of them reject pakistanis on the basis of religion. language/culture could never mend the historical religious differences. i often hear of such stories of friendship and camaraderie as this article purports but i have yet to such bonds. unless you count quoting ghalib and ruminating over rumi.

by Kris Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:57 am

My only reference point is sikh families (and some sindhi friends' families) whose families crossed over. I have heard some nostalgic talk from older members, but the religion issue does loom large. I am not familiar with the ABD view, with the exception of my kids who do have friends from pakistani families. They are younger and no importance is attached to it, one way or the other.

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