A Masala Dosa (not Dosai) to die for

by Hellsangel Thu May 08, 2014 1:20 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/magazine/masala-dosa-to-die-for.html

by Impedimenta Thu May 08, 2014 1:26 pm

its just not the same without the "i"

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu May 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/magazine/masala-dosa-to-die-for.html

We - the great Southies - will be forced to spell Dhaal Makhni, ChapatHi, Paratha, Mutton Kurma, and Channa Kurma.

by garam_kuta Thu May 08, 2014 2:27 pm

in all places, hollering "masaaaa..ley! " over the counter is all that I hear Wink

samiyaar - you missed out on that it is 'Dhosai not Dosai:)

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu May 08, 2014 2:31 pm

Impedimenta wrote:its just not the same without the "i"

It is not the "i" that is important. It is what they put inside the dosa tunnel that makes it good.

by b_A Thu May 08, 2014 4:22 pm

Rishi will find this masala more interesting than what is in the dosa.

"In 2002, the year that he opened franchises in Singapore and Sunnyvale, Calif., Rajagopal was charged with murdering the husband of a woman he wanted to marry. In 2003, his restaurant expanded to Canada, Oman and Malaysia, and he went to jail for the first time. In 2004, a local Chennai court sentenced him to 10 years in prison. By the end of that year, the empire had opened 29 branches worldwide.

Eight months into his prison term, the Supreme Court suspended Rajagopal’s sentence on medical grounds while awaiting appeal, citing his diabetes. In 2009, the Madras High Court not only upheld the verdict but also upgraded the conviction from culpable homicide to murder and enhanced his sentence to life in prison. After another three-month stint, he was out on bail pending a Supreme Court hearing, which no one expects to happen anytime soon. The courts won’t give him back his passport, but otherwise he’s free to go about his life. All but one of Saravana Bhavan’s 47 foreign franchises have opened in the 12 years since the murder."

"According to the document, Rajagopal — possibly on the advice of his astrologer — became determined to marry Jeevajothi, the young daughter of one of his assistant managers. That would have made her Rajagopal’s third simultaneous wife: In 1972, he married the mother of his sons, and in 1994, he married the wife of one of his employees.

Jeevajothi was not interested in Rajagopal. She was in love with her brother’s math tutor, Santhakumar. In 1999, Jeevajothi and Santhakumar eloped, but Rajagopal’s fixation persisted; he gave her jewelry, dresses and several installments of cash to help her open a travel agency. While Jeevajothi accepted the gifts, she continued to resist Rajagopal’s advances. On Sept. 28, 2001, Rajagopal came to Jeevajothi and Santhakumar’s house at midnight and warned Santhakumar that he had two days to sever their relationship. He told Jeevajothi that his second wife, too, had at first rejected him, but now she was living “a queen life.”

The young couple tried to flee to a place where they hoped Rajagopal wouldn’t find them, but five of Rajagopal’s employees, led by a restaurant manager named Daniel, intercepted them. The henchmen forced the couple into an Ambassador car and drove them to a Saravana Bhavan warehouse in KK Nagar, where Rajagopal appeared. According to the court’s narrative, Rajagopal hiked up his dhoti and gave Santhakumar a beating. Jeevajothi fell at Rajagopal’s feet and begged him to stop. Rajagopal told his men to take Santhakumar to the next room and continue beating him. Jeevajothi sat in the corner and wept.

The next day, Daniel called Jeevajothi to apologize and suggested that she go to the police.

Though Rajagopal’s men held Jeevajothi and Santhakumar under a kind of house arrest, they escaped on Oct. 12 under the pretext of going out to attend a “felicitation function” for Rajagopal. Instead, they went to the city police commissioner’s office to file a complaint. Six days later, Rajagopal’s employees kidnapped the couple again and forcibly separated them. They pushed Jeevajothi into a Mercedes with Rajagopal, who brandished a photocopy of her police complaint and asked her mockingly about its contents.
Jeevajothi didn’t know what became of Santhakumar. He reached her by phone two days later, telling her that Rajagopal had paid Daniel 500,000 rupees ($10,000) to kill him, but Daniel had instead let him escape and advised him to hide out in Mumbai. She urged Santhakumar to come home to her; together, Jeevajothi said, they’d plead with Rajagopal to leave them alone. “It is obvious,” the court wrote, “that their overwhelming love for each other persuaded them to take the risk.”

Later that night, the couple, joined by Jeevajothi’s parents and brother, went to Saravana Bhavan headquarters to meet Rajagopal. He told them to wait in a nearby room. Then he interrogated Daniel about what happened to Santhakumar. Daniel lied and said that he had tied him up on a railway track, where a train ran him over, and then he burned his clothes. With a dramatic flourish, Rajagopal then called Santhakumar into the room. Who’s this then, he asked Daniel, Santhakumar’s ghost? Daniel started beating Santhakumar there in the office, enraged that he’d revealed his betrayal of Rajagopal. Jeevajothi and her family tried to intervene. Eventually Rajagopal and his henchmen put them all into a van, which, according to the court, took them to a specialist in a faraway village “for removal of witchcraft.”
Continue reading the main story

Two days later, Rajagopal’s men forced Santhakumar into a car with Daniel, and they drove north. On Oct. 31, high up in the Western Ghats mountain range near a resort town called Kodaikanal, forest officials discovered a body. An assistant surgeon at the local hospital concluded in his post-mortem that the cause of Santhakumar’s death was “asphyxia due to throttling.” The police later found the alleged murder weapon — a sarong — under the seat of Daniel’s car.

Daniel was convicted of murder along with Rajagopal and has also been released on bail, but I was never able to track him down. Jeevajothi, too, has made herself impossible to find."

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu May 08, 2014 11:02 pm

b_A wrote:Rishi will find this masala more interesting than what is in the dosa.

"In 2002, the year that he opened franchises in Singapore and Sunnyvale, Calif., Rajagopal was charged with murdering the husband of a woman he wanted to marry. In 2003, his restaurant expanded to Canada, Oman and Malaysia, and he went to jail for the first time. In 2004, a local Chennai court sentenced him to 10 years in prison. By the end of that year, the empire had opened 29 branches worldwide.

Oh remember following this story...and Shame on the Indian judiciary. Do we need any more proof of the ineptness and corruption behind the Indian Judiciary?

The Indian Judiciary NEEDS immediate and comprehensive overhaul. The fear of enforcement of the laws is critical for a society's law and order.

by Rishi Fri May 09, 2014 10:07 pm

>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 09, 2014 10:23 pm

rishi we really appreciate your direct and forthright tambrahm superiority complex unlike some others here who exhibit superiority in subtle sideways methods.

by Rishi Fri May 09, 2014 10:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rishi we really appreciate your direct and forthright tambrahm superiority complex unlike some others here who exhibit superiority in subtle sideways methods.

>>>Max,

Who are some others you were referring to?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 09, 2014 10:29 pm

if i tell you that it won't be sideways anymore.

by swapna Fri May 09, 2014 10:47 pm

Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

I had not known about the violence that seems to be common among various.castes in rural Thamizh Nadu until I read parts of David Davidar's The House of Blue Mangoes.

One of T V Sundaram Iyengar's grandsons was my class-mate at the Irinjalakkuda Institute of Technology. He was a pleasant fella, but relatively friendless because no one wanted to be seen as being very friendly with such a wealthy person.

by swapna Fri May 09, 2014 11:00 pm

swapna wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.
I had not known about the violence that seems to be common among various.castes in rural Thamizh Nadu until I read parts of David Davidar's The House of Blue Mangoes.

One of T V Sundaram Iyengar's grandsons was my class-mate at the Irinjalakkuda Institute of Technology. He was a pleasant fella, but relatively friendless because no one wanted to be seen as being very friendly with such a wealthy person.

The book is set in Thirunelveli and Kanyakumari.

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 8:22 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rishi we really appreciate your direct and forthright tambrahm superiority complex unlike some others here who exhibit superiority in subtle sideways methods.

Max,

1, Once you said that TN Brahmins roll with the punches. It is true. That itself implies you think they have a superior quality compared to other castes.

2. What do you think all those statements you made about NI hindus were meant to imply? You were directly saying in many ways SIs are superior culturally than NIs.

IMO, if a group of people tell themselves "we are not like them. we don't engage in violence", it is a good thing.

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 8:52 am

Max,

One more thing.

Ponniyin Selvan once complained that TN Brahmins do not marry people of other castes.

You then posted a link from "The Hindu" newspaper article about a Nadar lady who was dead against her daughter marrying her lover who happened to be a dalit. The Nadar woman hired a few goondas to engage in violence against the Dalit guy. You contrasted the behavior of OBCs against dalits with Brahmins who behave intune with reality when their kids marry dalits.

You told PS that the backward castes use weapons like Peechu Arivaal (sickle?) against other castes. You also told PS that he was barking at the wrong tree.

When I say a similar thing about Nadars now, you point a finger at me.

Actually, you are one of the TN Brahmins who exhibit superiority in subtle sideways methods.

by Maria S Sat May 10, 2014 8:58 am

Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

"A Nadar, Any Nadar?"..what a brilliant, well..really appalling statement.
And a person blinded by caste prejudices and asserts superiority is..well, is a stark reminder of enormous struggles of Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

Even for people like me who try to remain open-minded, at least try to look beyond caste, religion and other group differences..and value people as individuals..these kinds of statements from people who are educated and NRIs are stark reminders..of the struggles non-brahmins have historically have faced and still have to overcome- when it comes to rights and broad perceptions.

I hope the younger generations in TN..always remember the hard battles, and how easy it is to be branded as inferior- based on being born in certain tribes/groups.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 10, 2014 9:06 am

to maria and all others who may be interested in such things:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

by Maria S Sat May 10, 2014 9:08 am

Thanks Max, will certainly look into it.

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 9:25 am

Maria S wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

"A Nadar, Any Nadar?"..what a brilliant, well..really appalling statement.
And a person blinded by caste prejudices and asserts superiority is..well, is a stark reminder of enormous struggles of Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

Even for people like me who try to remain open-minded, at least try to look beyond caste, religion and other group differences..and value people as individuals..these kinds of statements from people who are educated and NRIs are stark reminders..of the struggles non-brahmins have historically have faced and still have to overcome- when it comes to rights and broad perceptions.

I hope the younger generations in TN..always remember the hard battles, and how easy it is to be branded as inferior- based on being born in certain tribes/groups.

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat May 10, 2014 9:34 am

Maria S wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

"A Nadar, Any Nadar?"..what a brilliant, well..really appalling statement.
And a person blinded by caste prejudices and asserts superiority is..well, is a stark reminder of enormous struggles of Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

Even for people like me who try to remain open-minded, at least try to look beyond caste, religion and other group differences..and value people as individuals..these kinds of statements from people who are educated and NRIs are stark reminders..of the struggles non-brahmins have historically have faced and still have to overcome- when it comes to rights and broad perceptions.

I hope the younger generations in TN..always remember the hard battles, and how easy it is to be branded as inferior- based on being born in certain tribes/groups.

Agree completely.... There is only one truly secular guy on this board. ME.

When are we having our coffee date????

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 9:37 am

Rashmun wrote:
Maria S wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

"A Nadar, Any Nadar?"..what a brilliant, well..really appalling statement.
And a person blinded by caste prejudices and asserts superiority is..well, is a stark reminder of enormous struggles of Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

Even for people like me who try to remain open-minded, at least try to look beyond caste, religion and other group differences..and value people as individuals..these kinds of statements from people who are educated and NRIs are stark reminders..of the struggles non-brahmins have historically have faced and still have to overcome- when it comes to rights and broad perceptions.

I hope the younger generations in TN..always remember the hard battles, and how easy it is to be branded as inferior- based on being born in certain tribes/groups.

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

>>>That is what I am also saying. The reason why TN Brahmins do not engage in violence compared to castes like Nadars and Thevards is precisely because they have told for generations that a Brahmin is supposed to practice self-control of his emotions, not go after wealth etc. That is why there is less violence among TN Brahmins.

The other side of the coin is "we want them to be like us." That is a benevolent way of looking at other groups. (This was suggested by Naipaul in an article.)

If I say something negative about NI Hindus, Max would have gladly accepted.

I do not believe that a person is inferior/superior based on genetics or birth etc.

But certainly some cultural traits are superior to others. And cultures do change.

by Maria S Sat May 10, 2014 9:46 am

Rashmun wrote:

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

Of course not, Rashmun.

It is good advice from a Brahmin elder to a younger person who belongs to the same caste/group.

If a Nadar elder tells a younger Nadar man "You are a Nadar- you are expected to behave well" (it may be shocking to know that Nadar elders do this a lot too!)

We can substitute the caste for race, religion, gender etc, etc. Older men advising - younger to behave like a "gentleman"...and older women advising younger women that they are expected to be "lady-like" and behave well.

*There always people who don't listen to good advice..and don't behave well.

I have nothing against "group identity-pride"..only when you put down and insult/label others, it crosses the line.

It only become an issue when people start stereotyping and say "because he is a Nadar..he is an "inner goonda"...or "because he is a brahmin..he is an inner manipulator" etc.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 10, 2014 9:53 am

rishi in case you didn't already realize it, the problem is one word, the use of "a" instead of "this".

by Maria S Sat May 10, 2014 9:54 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Agree completely.... There is only one truly secular guy on this board. ME.

When are we having our coffee date????

I know:)

Hopefully before we both turn 200 Smile

!

Hope you are doing well.

Have a good Saturday!

I am not sure how many "real women" are here in this forum..Happy Mother's day in advance to all the Moms here!

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 10, 2014 9:56 am

i am sure i have my own biases, but i don't think i've ever said brahmins are incapable of bad behavior. here is an example of a pre-eminent brahmin behaving badly:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?225947

and we all know about the sankarraman case.

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 9:57 am

Maria S wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

Of course not, Rashmun.

It is good advice from a Brahmin elder to a younger person who belong to the same caste/group.

If a Nadar elder tells a younger Nadar man "You are a Nadar- you are expected to behave well" (it may be shocking to know that Nadar elders do this a lot too!)

We can substitute the caste for race, religion, gender etc, etc. Older men advising - younger to behave like a "gentleman"...and older women advising younger women that they are expected to be "lady-like" and behave well.

*There always people who don't listen to good advice..and don't behave well.

I have nothing against "group identity-pride"..only when you put insult/laber others, it crosses the line.

It only become an issue when people start stereotyping and say "because he is a Nadar..he is an "inner goonda"...or "because he is a brahmin..he is an inner manipulator" etc.

I think there would be protests if people went around saying "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave well." There would accusations of continuing to want to make Dalits feel subservient to others. Perhaps the same would apply to Muslims, Christians, and even OBC hindus if people went around making similar statements about them.

by Maria S Sat May 10, 2014 10:06 am

In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 10:11 am

Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.

by swapna Sat May 10, 2014 10:39 am

Maria S wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>>This is exactly the difference between a Tamil Brahmin and a Nadar fellow. Have you ever heard of anyone from TVS Iyengar family behaving this way? WIth all the money still a Nadar is nothing but a goonda driving around in posh car.

"A Nadar, Any Nadar?"..what a brilliant, well..really appalling statement.
And a person blinded by caste prejudices and asserts superiority is..well, is a stark reminder of enormous struggles of Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

Even for people like me who try to remain open-minded, at least try to look beyond caste, religion and other group differences..and value people as individuals..these kinds of statements from people who are educated and NRIs are stark reminders..of the struggles non-brahmins have historically have faced and still have to overcome- when it comes to rights and broad perceptions.

I hope the younger generations in TN..always remember the hard battles, and how easy it is to be branded as inferior- based on being born in certain tribes/groups.

Nearly all of the violence that I've read about in Thamizh Nadu is perpetrated by non-brahmins against people of lower castes. I don't know which these castes are, but "Thevars" and "Nadars" ring a bell.

This is not the violence of one individual against another, but of groups or families of people of one caste against larger groups of people of lower caste. Thamizh Brahmins don't appear to be a part of the violence against lower-caste hindus at all.

Even Uppusaamy, if he is a Brahmin, does not advocate violence against the lower-caste Hindus of TN; he's busy inciting violence - sideways - against Muslims.

After these many years of observation, it is clear to me that the person of Indian heritage who does not engage in caste-based behaviour is extremely rare.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 10, 2014 10:54 am

swapna wrote:

This is not the violence of one individual against another, but of groups or families of people of one caste against larger groups of people of lower caste. Thamizh Brahmins don't appear to be a part of the violence against lower-caste hindus at all.

thamizh brahmins have historically only done sideways screwing of non-brahmin castes. never violent. and i think they've had their comeuppance by the bushel. the only violent thamizh brahmin i know of besides the ones who have served in the military are vanchinathan and jayendra saraswathi, who is the head of a major religious institution. the former against the british and latter against one of his employees at the kanchi matam.

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 10:56 am

Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Maria,

I had a co-worker from Kanyakumari when I was working in a public sector company. His name was Joseph Jeyaraj. He was a Catholic and he belonged to the fisherman caste. The man had a Master's degree in Engineering.

Before he enrolled in an Engineering college, Jeyaraj was in a Seminary near St. Thomas Mount. He was studying to be a priest.

One day , he was telling me about his Engineering professor who used to be strict. He said with pride "Professor Palanichamy knew that I am from the fisherman caste and we are violent people. So I put out a word through my friends that I would beat him up if he messes around with me. Somehow he came to know what I said. from then onward, he started being nice to me. He used to greet me every day and ask me How are you? Mr. Joseph".

Here is this fellow bragging about how violent his people are.

But if I say that his community is violent, people jump all over me.

Thank GOD Joseph quit the seminary. He was a womanizer.

by Kris Sat May 10, 2014 11:04 am

Rishi wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).
Maria,

I had a co-worker from Kanyakumari when I was working in a public sector company. His name was Joseph Jeyaraj. He was a Catholic and he belonged to the fisherman caste. The man had a Master's degree in Engineering.

Before he enrolled in an Engineering college, Jeyaraj was in a Seminary near St. Thomas Mount. He was studying to be a priest.

One day , he was telling me about his Engineering professor who used to be strict. He said with pride "Professor Palanichamy knew that I am from the fisherman caste and we are violent people. So I put out a word through my friends that I would beat him up if he messes around with me. Somehow he came to know what I said. from then onward, he started being nice to me. He used to greet me every day and ask me How are you? Mr. Joseph".

Here is this fellow bragging about how violent his people are.

But if I say that his community is violent, people jump all over me.

Thank GOD Joseph quit the seminary. He was a womanizer.

Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?

by confuzzled dude Sat May 10, 2014 11:09 am

Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Maria, It's not even giving free advise rather patting on ones own back and living in a constant state of delirium that my sub-culture is better or more cultured than other sub-cultures. If it makes them feel better all power to them but any sane person would recognize that reality is far from that.

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 11:11 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am sure i have my own biases, but i don't think i've ever said brahmins are incapable of bad behavior. here is an example of a pre-eminent brahmin behaving badly:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?225947

and we all know about the sankarraman case.

>>>The Kanchi fraud had co-opted the behavior of violent castes. But still that does not negate the effect that on the whole TN brahmins tend to behave better than other castes.

On the whole, TN Brahmins tend to be less violent than Nadars. That is simply because the have been told by their elders that a brahmin is supposed to behave better and practice self-restraint etc. On the other day, one gentleman was talking about what Gita says about how a brahmin should behave. It is only because of that kind of thinking, most of the TN brahmins behave with moderation.

You never miss an opportunity to claim NI hindus are more violent than SIs.

When I make a claim that Nadars are more violent than Brahmins in TN, why do you go nuts?

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 11:16 am

Kris wrote:
Rishi wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).
Maria,

I had a co-worker from Kanyakumari when I was working in a public sector company. His name was Joseph Jeyaraj. He was a Catholic and he belonged to the fisherman caste. The man had a Master's degree in Engineering.

Before he enrolled in an Engineering college, Jeyaraj was in a Seminary near St. Thomas Mount. He was studying to be a priest.

One day , he was telling me about his Engineering professor who used to be strict. He said with pride "Professor Palanichamy knew that I am from the fisherman caste and we are violent people. So I put out a word through my friends that I would beat him up if he messes around with me. Somehow he came to know what I said. from then onward, he started being nice to me. He used to greet me every day and ask me How are you? Mr. Joseph".

Here is this fellow bragging about how violent his people are.

But if I say that his community is violent, people jump all over me.

Thank GOD Joseph quit the seminary. He was a womanizer.
Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?

This reminds me of a dialogue from K. Balachandar movie. It goes something like this. "When someone dies of electrical shock, how does it matter whether it was AC or DC? "

by garam_kuta Sat May 10, 2014 11:18 am

Kris wrote:

Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?

Of course it's not right to judge, characterize and label any tribe/community but IMO it's good and credible to express from one's own experience, whether it is Rishi or Sir Vidiya !

by confuzzled dude Sat May 10, 2014 11:18 am

Rashmun wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.

What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 11:32 am

Rishi wrote:
You never miss an opportunity to claim NI hindus are more violent than SIs.

When I make a claim that Nadars are more violent than Brahmins in TN, why do you go nuts?

Hypocrisy! Think about it. How many here have declared their castes?

by Kris Sat May 10, 2014 11:34 am

Maria S wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

Of course not, Rashmun.

It is good advice from a Brahmin elder to a younger person who belongs to the same caste/group.

If a Nadar elder tells a younger Nadar man "You are a Nadar- you are expected to behave well" (it may be shocking to know that Nadar elders do this a lot too!)

We can substitute the caste for race, religion, gender etc, etc. Older men advising - younger to behave like a "gentleman"...and older women advising younger women that they are expected to be "lady-like" and behave well.

*There always people who don't listen to good advice..and don't behave well.

I have nothing against "group identity-pride"..only when you put down and insult/label others, it crosses the line.

It only become an issue when people start stereotyping and say "because he is a Nadar..he is an "inner goonda"...or "because he is a brahmin..he is an inner manipulator" etc.

>>Maria,

I take these kinds of advice with a grain of salt. 'You are a this' or 'you are a that, therefore...' usually comes from people who are stuck in a certain paradigm and assumes the recipient buys into things like group identity. In some cases, it is also just stuff people say because they feel they need to say something. When I was leaving for the US, I went to say 'bye' to my uncle. He told me that I should behave in a way that people should think highly of our family. I couldn't figure out who in America knew my family to begin with.

P.S. Happy Mother's Day! Remember you are a mother. People should speak highly of motherhood based on your behavior. Be on your best behavior today.

P.P.S. What is an 'inner manipulator'? I have to admit it exudes a certain coolness and has bumper sticker potential. Smile

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 11:41 am

Kris wrote:
Maria S wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

Of course not, Rashmun.

It is good advice from a Brahmin elder to a younger person who belongs to the same caste/group.

If a Nadar elder tells a younger Nadar man "You are a Nadar- you are expected to behave well" (it may be shocking to know that Nadar elders do this a lot too!)

We can substitute the caste for race, religion, gender etc, etc. Older men advising - younger to behave like a "gentleman"...and older women advising younger women that they are expected to be "lady-like" and behave well.

*There always people who don't listen to good advice..and don't behave well.

I have nothing against "group identity-pride"..only when you put down and insult/label others, it crosses the line.

It only become an issue when people start stereotyping and say "because he is a Nadar..he is an "inner goonda"...or "because he is a brahmin..he is an inner manipulator" etc.

>>Maria,

I take these kinds of advice with a grain of salt. 'You are a this' or 'you are a that, therefore...' usually comes from people who are stuck in a certain paradigm and assumes the recipient buys into things like group identity. In some cases, it is also just stuff people say because they feel they need to say something. When I was leaving for the US, I went to say 'bye' to my uncle. He told me that I should behave in a way that people should think highly of our family. I couldn't figure out who in America knew my family to begin with.

P.S. Happy Mother's Day! Remember you are a mother. People should speak highly of motherhood based on your behavior. Be on your best behavior today.

P.P.S. What is an 'inner manipulator'? I have to admit it exudes a certain coolness and has bumper sticker potential.

>>>I guess the man may be talking about two things.

1. Suppose you engage in self-destructive behavior and end up in an American jail, people who knew your family will come to know. He thought that would reflect on your family and the kind of upbringing you had.

2. In a broader sense, Americans also wonder about the upbringing when a guy screws up and gets into trouble,

by Kris Sat May 10, 2014 11:45 am

garam_kuta wrote:
Kris wrote:

Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?

Of course it's not right to judge, characterize and label any tribe/community but IMO it's good and credible to express from one's own experience, whether it is Rishi or Sir Vidiya !

>>>No, judge away all you want. It is just that if you are going to make practical decisions based on those judgments, you do so at your own peril when the underlying basis is questionable.

by Rishi Sat May 10, 2014 11:45 am

What is wrong in a parent or elder telling a kid "violence is not our way. we are better than them."

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 11:49 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.
What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

I am most familiar with UP so I will tell u the caste nomenclature in UP. At the top are upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriyas/Thakurs, Vaishya/Baniyas, Kayasthas and at the very bottom are the Dalits or sudras. But there are intermediate castes in between high caste and low caste hindus and these are the OBC's. In UP, the largest OBC caste is the Yadava caste followed by Kurmis. There are other smaller OBC castes like Lodh, etc.

by Kris Sat May 10, 2014 11:53 am

Rishi wrote:
Kris wrote:
Maria S wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

I remember conversing with a Brahmin priest whose family had known mine for a few generations since they would sometimes perform some rituals for us. One relative of this priest, a young man, had become a drunkard and wastrel and would spend all his waking time getting drunk and lazing around. One thing this Brahmin priest had told his younger relative is that it is unacceptable for the young man to behave in this manner because he was a Brahmin and therefore better behavior is expected from him. Was this a casteist and chauvinist thing to say?

Of course not, Rashmun.

It is good advice from a Brahmin elder to a younger person who belongs to the same caste/group.

If a Nadar elder tells a younger Nadar man "You are a Nadar- you are expected to behave well" (it may be shocking to know that Nadar elders do this a lot too!)

We can substitute the caste for race, religion, gender etc, etc. Older men advising - younger to behave like a "gentleman"...and older women advising younger women that they are expected to be "lady-like" and behave well.

*There always people who don't listen to good advice..and don't behave well.

I have nothing against "group identity-pride"..only when you put down and insult/label others, it crosses the line.

It only become an issue when people start stereotyping and say "because he is a Nadar..he is an "inner goonda"...or "because he is a brahmin..he is an inner manipulator" etc.

>>Maria,

I take these kinds of advice with a grain of salt. 'You are a this' or 'you are a that, therefore...' usually comes from people who are stuck in a certain paradigm and assumes the recipient buys into things like group identity. In some cases, it is also just stuff people say because they feel they need to say something. When I was leaving for the US, I went to say 'bye' to my uncle. He told me that I should behave in a way that people should think highly of our family. I couldn't figure out who in America knew my family to begin with.

P.S. Happy Mother's Day! Remember you are a mother. People should speak highly of motherhood based on your behavior. Be on your best behavior today.

P.P.S. What is an 'inner manipulator'? I have to admit it exudes a certain coolness and has bumper sticker potential.

>>>I guess the man may be talking about two things.

1. Suppose you engage in self-destructive behavior and end up in an American jail, people who knew your family will come to know. He thought that would reflect on your family and the kind of upbringing you had.

2. In a broader sense, Americans also wonder about the upbringing when a guy screws up and gets into trouble,

>>>This is universal. The strangeness comes in when you say 'you are a Presbyterian of Scots-Irish background. Make sure you don't mess up' as though it is okay for Catholics to do that. Admittedly, this is a bit of nitpicking since I think many people say these things because they feel they have to say something and they fall back on a format that has been around for some time.

by confuzzled dude Sat May 10, 2014 11:58 am

Kris wrote:

Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?

Prof. was a smaart baayy. He knew calling him Mr.Jeyaraj would've brought out violent qualities of fishermen.

by Kris Sat May 10, 2014 12:03 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:

Two questions:

1) Are you saying this sample size of one can be the basis to judge all people of his caste?

2) Why didn't the professor call him Mr. Jeyaraj?
Prof. was a smaart baayy. He knew calling him Mr.Jeyaraj would've brought out violent qualities of fishermen.

>>>On another note, I think Jeyaraj seems to have been a multifaceted personality: the master's degree in engineering, the seminary, the ladies, the 'out of the box' thinking in planting a seed in the professor's mind in a godfather-esque fashion. I am going to see if I can hunt him down and invite him to become a member of SUCH.

by confuzzled dude Sat May 10, 2014 12:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.
What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

I am most familiar with UP so I will tell u the caste nomenclature in UP. At the top are upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriyas/Thakurs, Vaishya/Baniyas, Kayasthas and at the very bottom are the Dalits or sudras. But there are intermediate castes in between high caste and low caste hindus and these are the OBC's. In UP, the largest OBC caste is the Yadava caste followed by Kurmis. There are other smaller OBC castes like Lodh, etc.

In A.P most of the dalits in rural areas work as agricultural/day laborers, majority of these farming lands are owned by the so called upper caste communities. In most cases dalits do look up to them for advise because of their day-to-day interaction though those very communities are also the oppressors. Brahmins are no different either, What % of brahmins (especially in rural India) do you think will invite a non-brahmin let alone a dalit to their house for dinner or lunch?

"The disparity becomes more pronounced when we go to fertile and well developed South Coastal Andhra. Here the Reddys and Kammas constitute only 13.72% of the total households, (Basing on data collected from 24 villages) but the land they own is as much as 46.36% of the total land (i.e.) a mere 13.72% Reddy and Kamma households are owning nearly half of the total land of this fertile region. On the other side we find 32.92% (i.e.) nearly one third of the total households belonging to Mala and Madiga castes who own a mere 8.08% of the total land"

http://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 12:37 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Maria S wrote:In a broader sense..it's like an extended family..the elders in an extended family can advise people in their own family..while no one would like advice from outsiders (even advising youngsters in our own extended family is not always received well!)

No Brahmin or Nadar youngster will like advice from outsiders with reminders of which caste they belong to. (Of course, general advice from teachers, professors, coaches, career mentors etc..are different).

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.
What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

I am most familiar with UP so I will tell u the caste nomenclature in UP. At the top are upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriyas/Thakurs, Vaishya/Baniyas, Kayasthas and at the very bottom are the Dalits or sudras. But there are intermediate castes in between high caste and low caste hindus and these are the OBC's. In UP, the largest OBC caste is the Yadava caste followed by Kurmis. There are other smaller OBC castes like Lodh, etc.

In A.P most of the dalits in rural areas work as agricultural/day laborers, majority of these farming lands are owned by the so called upper caste communities. In most cases dalits do look up to them for advise because of their day-to-day interaction though those very communities are also the oppressors. Brahmins are no different either, What % of brahmins (especially in rural India) do you think will invite a non-brahmin let alone a dalit to their house for dinner or lunch?

"The disparity becomes more pronounced when we go to fertile and well developed South Coastal Andhra. Here the Reddys and Kammas constitute only 13.72% of the total households, (Basing on data collected from 24 villages) but the land they own is as much as 46.36% of the total land (i.e.) a mere 13.72% Reddy and Kamma households are owning nearly half of the total land of this fertile region. On the other side we find 32.92% (i.e.) nearly one third of the total households belonging to Mala and Madiga castes who own a mere 8.08% of the total land"

http://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

You are being silly now. Only 1 % of AP's population comprises Brahmins and further the two big land owning castes in AP are reddys and kammas. In UP it is the OBC's and to a much lesser extent the Kshatriyas/thakurs who are the land owning castes. In Tamil Nadu it is the Goundars, Vanniyars, Thevars, and Nadars who are the biggest oppressors of Dalits and not Brahmins or Chettiars.

by confuzzled dude Sat May 10, 2014 12:47 pm

Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Sorry no matter how you argue a Dalit elder telling a young Dalit man "you are a Dalit. You are expected to behave in a better manner" would be deemed unacceptable by Dalit leaders since it would be held that u are trying to perpetuate Dalit subserviency. There is no pride in saying "I am a Dalit" when you know your ancestors have been treated like shit for more than three thousand years. And the biggest oppressors of Dalits today in India are the OBC hindus.
What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

I am most familiar with UP so I will tell u the caste nomenclature in UP. At the top are upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriyas/Thakurs, Vaishya/Baniyas, Kayasthas and at the very bottom are the Dalits or sudras. But there are intermediate castes in between high caste and low caste hindus and these are the OBC's. In UP, the largest OBC caste is the Yadava caste followed by Kurmis. There are other smaller OBC castes like Lodh, etc.

In A.P most of the dalits in rural areas work as agricultural/day laborers, majority of these farming lands are owned by the so called upper caste communities. In most cases dalits do look up to them for advise because of their day-to-day interaction though those very communities are also the oppressors. Brahmins are no different either, What % of brahmins (especially in rural India) do you think will invite a non-brahmin let alone a dalit to their house for dinner or lunch?

"The disparity becomes more pronounced when we go to fertile and well developed South Coastal Andhra. Here the Reddys and Kammas constitute only 13.72% of the total households, (Basing on data collected from 24 villages) but the land they own is as much as 46.36% of the total land (i.e.) a mere 13.72% Reddy and Kamma households are owning nearly half of the total land of this fertile region. On the other side we find 32.92% (i.e.) nearly one third of the total households belonging to Mala and Madiga castes who own a mere 8.08% of the total land"

http://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

You are being silly now. Only 1 % of AP's population comprises Brahmins and further the two big land owning castes in AP are reddys and kammas. In UP it is the OBC's and to a much lesser extent the Kshatriyas/thakurs who are the land owning castes. In Tamil Nadu it is the Goundars, Vanniyars, Thevars, and Nadars who are the biggest oppressors of Dalits and not Brahmins or Chettiars.

What's so silly about it; oppression doesn't occur only on farmlands; what about sideways screwing Max was alluding to. What percentage of 1% Telugu Brahmins do you think indulge in sideways screwing as opposed to front/back screwing by Reddys/Kammas.

by Guest Sat May 10, 2014 12:51 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
What is OBC to you? any one that belongs to non-brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya castes? then why don't you simply refer them a sudras, because in A.P beside the said groups Kammas, Kapus and Reddys are categorized as Forward caste and I'm sure is the case in other states too.

I am most familiar with UP so I will tell u the caste nomenclature in UP. At the top are upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriyas/Thakurs, Vaishya/Baniyas, Kayasthas and at the very bottom are the Dalits or sudras. But there are intermediate castes in between high caste and low caste hindus and these are the OBC's. In UP, the largest OBC caste is the Yadava caste followed by Kurmis. There are other smaller OBC castes like Lodh, etc.

In A.P most of the dalits in rural areas work as agricultural/day laborers, majority of these farming lands are owned by the so called upper caste communities. In most cases dalits do look up to them for advise because of their day-to-day interaction though those very communities are also the oppressors. Brahmins are no different either, What % of brahmins (especially in rural India) do you think will invite a non-brahmin let alone a dalit to their house for dinner or lunch?

"The disparity becomes more pronounced when we go to fertile and well developed South Coastal Andhra. Here the Reddys and Kammas constitute only 13.72% of the total households, (Basing on data collected from 24 villages) but the land they own is as much as 46.36% of the total land (i.e.) a mere 13.72% Reddy and Kamma households are owning nearly half of the total land of this fertile region. On the other side we find 32.92% (i.e.) nearly one third of the total households belonging to Mala and Madiga castes who own a mere 8.08% of the total land"

http://www.cpim.org/marxist/201202-Land-Inequalities-AP.pdf

You are being silly now. Only 1 % of AP's population comprises Brahmins and further the two big land owning castes in AP are reddys and kammas. In UP it is the OBC's and to a much lesser extent the Kshatriyas/thakurs who are the land owning castes. In Tamil Nadu it is the Goundars, Vanniyars, Thevars, and Nadars who are the biggest oppressors of Dalits and not Brahmins or Chettiars.
What's so silly about it; oppression doesn't occur only on farmlands; what about sideways screwing Max was alluding to. What percentage of 1% Telugu Brahmins do you think indulge in sideways screwing as opposed to front/back screwing by Reddys/Kammas.

Your analogy is flawed. Reddy and Kammas physically thrash, humiliate publicly or even kill Dalits in AP; Brahmins don't do that.

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