H-M synthesis: H temple on M land

by Guest Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:29 pm

A small village in Begusarai, Bihar has demonstrated what real co-existence means.
Muslims in village in Bachawara village are busy building a temple for their Hindus neighbours – setting a concrete example of real coexistence. Earlier, a Hindu farmer built a shrine for the Muslims.

The land for a Shiva temple has been donated by a Muslim landlord, The money is being raised by fellow Muslims, who go around with a green donation sheet, asking for alms. A group of Muslim young men are also performing the kar seva by physically helping with construction work.

The village has pre-dominant Muslim population and they are building a temple to reciprocate the construction of a ‘Mazar’, which has been built by Ganga Chaudhary, a Hindu farmer.

Unfazed by the bitterness over the Ayodhya mandir-maszid dispute, this village community stands together, proclaiming that for them humanity is the only religion, whether they worship in temples or offer namaz in mosque”.

“We have accepted the verdict and celebrated with both Hindus and Muslims,” said a villager, Salauddin Ansari.

These villagers, mainly bidi makers, are untouched by distrust and hatred elsewhere. “Both Hindus and Muslims stay together here,” Veena Devi, a villager told a news channel which covered the story.

http://www.bihardays.com/hindu-temple-muslim-land/

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:38 pm

Here is a temple in Telangana with a mosque inside the temple complex. I visited it a few years ago. I won't call it H-M synthesis. It is an example of how Hindus allow other faiths to prosper (including those that don't consider Hinduism a proper religion).

http://www.hoparoundindia.com/andhra-pradesh/vemulavada-attractions/sri-raja-rajeshwara-swami-temple.aspx

H-M synthesis: H temple on M land Sri-Rajarajeshwara-Swamy-Temple-Vemulawada-exploretelangana1

H-M synthesis: H temple on M land Sri-Rajarajeshwara-Swamy-Temple-Vemulawada-exploretelangana1

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:43 pm

your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:00 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:53 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...

by bw Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:05 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

i learnt a new word today - long live H-M synthesis!

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:09 am

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:19 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Here is a temple in Telangana with a mosque inside the temple complex. I visited it a few years ago. I won't call it H-M synthesis. It is an example of how Hindus allow other faiths to prosper (including those that don't consider Hinduism a proper religion).

http://www.hoparoundindia.com/andhra-pradesh/vemulavada-attractions/sri-raja-rajeshwara-swami-temple.aspx

Nice. The article at the link u give says the mosque was built in honor of a great devotee of Lord Shiva who happened to be a M.

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:33 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

There is some merit in what you say but there is also some merit in what I am saying.

----

I may give some examples. Once Holi and Muharram fell coincidentally on the same day on the same day. The Nawab of Avadh, Wajid Ali Shah was a Shia. After taking out the tazia and burying it in the karbala in Lucknow, he enquired why Holi was not being celebrated. He was told that since Holi was a festival of joy, while Muharram was an occasion of sorrow, Hindus had decided not to celebrate Holi that year out of respect for the sentiments of their Muslim brethren. On hearing this the Nawab declared that since Hindus had respected the sentiments of their Muslim brethren, it was the duty of Muslims also to respect the sentiments of their Hindu brethren. He then announced that Holi would be celebrated the same day throughout Avadh, and he himself was the first to play Holi, although it was also Muharram day.

I may give another example. I had once gone to Shringeri in the state of Karnataka. That is the peeth or centre of the southern Shankaracharya ( the adi, or original, Shankaracharya had established 4 peeths for Hindus in the north, west, south, and east). The present Shankaracharya, Bharati Teerth, showed me 30 letters sent by Tipu Sultan with monetary grants to the then Shankaracharya. In one of these letters Tipu Sultan says that it is because of the blessings of the great saint Shankaracharya that his kingdom has prospered, there are good rains, people are happy, etc. Just next to the palace of Tipu Sultan still exists a huge, old Shiva temple.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:15 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...

Most of these people (belonging to the islamic faith) playing classical music originally (before converting to Islam) were Hindus who were branded as "lower" caste (because they played music) by some stupid brahmins.

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:24 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...
Most of these people (belonging to the islamic faith) playing classical music originally (before converting to Islam) were Hindus who were branded as "lower" caste (because they played music) by some stupid brahmins.

Seems unlikely considering that Brahmins have also been playing classical music.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:31 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...
Most of these people (belonging to the islamic faith) playing classical music originally (before converting to Islam) were Hindus who were branded as "lower" caste (because they played music) by some stupid brahmins.

Seems unlikely considering that Brahmins have also been playing classical music.

Brahmins did it in the temples (to the deity) and for free. They would look down upon those who made money from it and used it to entertain ordinary people,

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:37 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...
Most of these people (belonging to the islamic faith) playing classical music originally (before converting to Islam) were Hindus who were branded as "lower" caste (because they played music) by some stupid brahmins.

Seems unlikely considering that Brahmins have also been playing classical music.

Brahmins did it in the temples (to the deity) and for free. They would look down upon those who made money from it and used it to entertain ordinary people,

Brahmins did not go around declaring Hindu court musicians to be Muslims.

---
From the wiki page on Baiju Bawra:

Baiju Bawra or Baijnath Prasad or Baijnath Mishra (1542–1613) was an Indian dhrupad singer. He was the court musician of Raja Mansingh Tomar of Gwalher, now Gwalior, along with Nayak Charju, Bakshu,Tansen and others....

Like Tansen, the musician at the court of Mughal Emperor Akbar, Bawra was a disciple of Swami Haridas (1512–1607).

According to historical books preserved in Jai Vilas Mahal in Gwalior, he would light oil lamps by singing Raga Deepak, make it rain by singing the ragas Megh, Megh Malhar, or Gaud Malhar, and bloom flowers by singing raga Bahar as well as melting of stone by singing raga malkauns.

Besides Tansen, renowned singers, Baba Ram Das, who composed raga Ramdasi Malhar, and Nayak Charju, who composed raga Charju ki Malhar, were Baiju's contemporaries.

Historian Abul Fazal at Emperor Akbar's court and historian Faqirullah at Emperor Aurangzeb's court have written that Baiju defeated Tansen in a singing competition at the court of Akbar. Tansen then touched Baiju's feet and asked for his own life. In response, kind-hearted Baiju went back to Gwalior.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:46 am

Some brahmins also chose to play the music in king's court and sell their musical talent to train and entertain the royals (princesses etc.), but those were exceptions and did not lead the musician brahmin being considered "low" (caste).

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:53 am

Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Here is a temple in Telangana with a mosque inside the temple complex. I visited it a few years ago. I won't call it H-M synthesis. It is an example of how Hindus allow other faiths to prosper (including those that don't consider Hinduism a proper religion).

http://www.hoparoundindia.com/andhra-pradesh/vemulavada-attractions/sri-raja-rajeshwara-swami-temple.aspx

Nice. The article at the link u give says the mosque was built in honor of a great devotee of Lord Shiva who happened to be a M.

From the Wikipedia page of this temple:

Interestingly there is a Muslim mosque inside the temple complex where all devotees offer prayers, irrespective of caste and creed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemulawada

---
Vakavaka, did you offer prayers at this mosque?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:58 am

http://muslimbuddhist.blogspot.com/2009/10/islam-and-hindustani-music.html?m=1

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:16 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.
Pl. give an example of Islamic classical music.

i meant islamic influences on classical music. whole gharanas have been started by people belonging to the islamic faith. the jaipur atrauli gharana started by alladiya khan and the maihar gharana started by baba allaudin khan or the qawwal bachchon ka gharana.

One man's synthesis is another man's apostasy...

:-).

And, there is "Islamic architecture". Pre-Islamic Persian pagans must be turning in their graves.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:18 am

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Here is a temple in Telangana with a mosque inside the temple complex. I visited it a few years ago. I won't call it H-M synthesis. It is an example of how Hindus allow other faiths to prosper (including those that don't consider Hinduism a proper religion).

http://www.hoparoundindia.com/andhra-pradesh/vemulavada-attractions/sri-raja-rajeshwara-swami-temple.aspx

Nice. The article at the link u give says the mosque was built in honor of a great devotee of Lord Shiva who happened to be a M.

From the Wikipedia page of this temple:

Interestingly there is a Muslim mosque inside the temple complex where all devotees offer prayers, irrespective of caste and creed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemulawada

---
Vakavaka, did you offer prayers at this mosque?

Yes. The gentleman gave me something that looked like a "rakshaabandhan" and collected a "donation".

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:30 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://muslimbuddhist.blogspot.com/2009/10/islam-and-hindustani-music.html?m=1

There is only one "raaga" that is allowed in Islam :-). Anyone who uses any raaga for any other purpose should be careful as the highly devoted pieceful wallahs will wake up from their deep sleep.

Here is the raaga:

http://www.freesound.org/people/ejaz215/sounds/33937/

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:34 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://muslimbuddhist.blogspot.com/2009/10/islam-and-hindustani-music.html?m=1
There is only one "raaga" that is allowed in Islam :-). Anyone who uses any raaga for any other purpose should be careful as the highly devoted pieceful wallahs will wake up from their deep sleep.

Here is the raaga:

http://www.freesound.org/people/ejaz215/sounds/33937/

Any comments on the following quote of Bismillah Khan ( from the article referred to by Max):

“I was once in an argument with some Shia maulavis in Iraq. They were all well-versed in their subject and were making several effective arguments about reasons why music ought to be damned. At first I was left speechless. Then I closed my eyes and began to sing Raga Bhairav: Allah-hee....Allah-hee....Allah-hee...I continued to raise the pitch. I opened my eyes and I asked them : 'Is this haraam? I'm calling God. I'm thinking of Him, I'm searching for Him. Isn't this namaaz? Why do you call my search haraam?' They fell silent.”

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:36 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Here is a temple in Telangana with a mosque inside the temple complex. I visited it a few years ago. I won't call it H-M synthesis. It is an example of how Hindus allow other faiths to prosper (including those that don't consider Hinduism a proper religion).

http://www.hoparoundindia.com/andhra-pradesh/vemulavada-attractions/sri-raja-rajeshwara-swami-temple.aspx

Nice. The article at the link u give says the mosque was built in honor of a great devotee of Lord Shiva who happened to be a M.

From the Wikipedia page of this temple:

Interestingly there is a Muslim mosque inside the temple complex where all devotees offer prayers, irrespective of caste and creed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemulawada

---
Vakavaka, did you offer prayers at this mosque?
Yes. The gentleman gave me something that looked like a "rakshaabandhan" and collected a "donation".

Was the donation optional or mandatory?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:49 am

there are four hindustani musicians i like whose music is minimalistic with very little by way of ornamentation. it's not always pretty, but it rends the heart -- they are mallikarjun mansur, bismillah khan, amir khan, and nikhil banerjee. i am not sure about NB and amir khan, but i am quite certain that mansur and bismillah khan's music came from a very deep spiritual quest. i wish sandilya would be more open minded about this.

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

I wonder whether our dispute on this issue is a variant of a question posed by Bhisma Pitamah in the Mahabharata:

The question of questions is whether it is the king who makes the age, or whether it is the age which makes the king.

by ashdoc Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:48 pm

such hindu muslim synthesis does not withstand the tidal wave of history .

in anatolia there used to be several such instances of christian muslim synthesis in a predominantly muslim land . similarly there used to be instances of such synthesis in greece---which is predominantly christian .

but war broke out between greece and turkey and christians were removed from anatolia and muslims from greece till no trace of either minority was left in both lands .

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:20 pm

ashdoc wrote:such hindu muslim synthesis does not withstand the tidal wave of history .

in anatolia there used to be several such instances of christian muslim synthesis in a predominantly muslim land . similarly there used to be instances of such synthesis in greece---which is predominantly christian .

but war broke out between greece and turkey and christians were removed from anatolia and muslims from greece till no trace of either minority was left in both lands .

This is not true. Muslims continue to live in Greece and Christians in Turkey.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:47 pm

ashdoc wrote:such hindu muslim synthesis does not withstand the tidal wave of history .

in anatolia there used to be several such instances of christian muslim synthesis in a predominantly muslim land . similarly there used to be instances of such synthesis in greece---which is predominantly christian .

but war broke out between greece and turkey and christians were removed from anatolia and muslims from greece till no trace of either minority was left in both lands .

The "love" between different Semitic faiths is interesting but, I wonder what happened to Pagans in Greece........

More importantly, how come the zest for science, philosophy, logic, etc., of Greeks evaporated after the Pagan culture disappeared from their land?

How about Egypt? After the Coptics and monomaniacs remodeled the Egyptian architecture, did they make Ramases II look like a small time builder?

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:49 pm

Rashmun wrote:
ashdoc wrote:such hindu muslim synthesis does not withstand the tidal wave of history .

in anatolia there used to be several such instances of christian muslim synthesis in a predominantly muslim land . similarly there used to be instances of such synthesis in greece---which is predominantly christian .

but war broke out between greece and turkey and christians were removed from anatolia and muslims from greece till no trace of either minority was left in both lands .

This is not true. Muslims continue to live in Greece and Christians in Turkey.

Hmm... So, Muslims and Christians hug and love each other in Cyprus..........?

by Guest Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:49 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
ashdoc wrote:such hindu muslim synthesis does not withstand the tidal wave of history .

in anatolia there used to be several such instances of christian muslim synthesis in a predominantly muslim land . similarly there used to be instances of such synthesis in greece---which is predominantly christian .

but war broke out between greece and turkey and christians were removed from anatolia and muslims from greece till no trace of either minority was left in both lands .
The "love" between different Semitic faiths is interesting but, I wonder what happened to Pagans in Greece........

More importantly, how come the zest for science, philosophy, logic, etc., of Greeks evaporated after the Pagan culture disappeared from their land?

How about Egypt? After the Coptics and monomaniacs remodeled the Egyptian architecture, did they make Ramases II look like a small time builder?

Both Greece and Egypt were conquered by the Romans.

by Impedimenta Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:55 pm

what is the point of this? No, I am not looking for an answer.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:03 pm

Impedimenta wrote: what is the point of this? No, I am not looking for an answer.

Rashmun tried to have T-H synthesis in Vellore and was chased out of the place. So, he is trying H-M synthesis so that he can wear a burkha and marry a pretty H girl in jeans and a traditional "Malayali blouse".

by rawemotions Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:52 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

There is some merit in what you say but there is also some merit in what I am saying.

I may give another example. I had once gone to Shringeri in the state of Karnataka. That is the peeth or centre of the southern Shankaracharya ( the adi, or original, Shankaracharya had established 4 peeths for Hindus in the north, west, south, and east). The present Shankaracharya, Bharati Teerth, showed me 30 letters sent by Tipu Sultan with monetary grants to the then Shankaracharya. In one of these letters Tipu Sultan says that it is because of the blessings of the great saint Shankaracharya that his kingdom has prospered, there are good rains, people are happy, etc. Just next to the palace of Tipu Sultan still exists a huge, old Shiva temple.

Tipu Sultan also conducted raids into North Kerala & South Karnataka where he converted tens of thousands by the sword. He is a Barbarian, who should be remembered for his crimes against humanity. I hope history books are written to appropriate reflect this fact, (without attributing motives). All these have been discussed earlier with links.

History is replete with Cruel dictators who butchered tens of thousands and made with peace with a few, even going to the extent of humoring their opponents with whom they made peace. To quote only this one incident , conveniently ignoring the savage barbarianism committed on millions, does not make Tipu Sultan any better. That guy deserves a place in history for having orchestrated crimes against Non-muslim humanity along with his father Hyder Ali, and their notorious colleagues who were Muslim Kings up north and to the east of their kingdom, some of whom belonged to the Mughal Dynasty.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:19 pm

rawemotions wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:your sort of H/M synthesis stories always appeared to me, somewhat pecksniffian on the part of one party or the other. true and natural examples of such things are to be found in classical music.

There is some merit in what you say but there is also some merit in what I am saying.

I may give another example. I had once gone to Shringeri in the state of Karnataka. That is the peeth or centre of the southern Shankaracharya ( the adi, or original, Shankaracharya had established 4 peeths for Hindus in the north, west, south, and east). The present Shankaracharya, Bharati Teerth, showed me 30 letters sent by Tipu Sultan with monetary grants to the then Shankaracharya. In one of these letters Tipu Sultan says that it is because of the blessings of the great saint Shankaracharya that his kingdom has prospered, there are good rains, people are happy, etc. Just next to the palace of Tipu Sultan still exists a huge, old Shiva temple.
Tipu Sultan also conducted raids into North Kerala & South Karnataka where he converted tens of thousands by the sword. He is a Barbarian, who should be remembered for his crimes against humanity. I hope history books are written to appropriate reflect this fact, (without attributing motives). All these have been discussed earlier with links.

History is replete with Cruel dictators who butchered tens of thousands and made with peace with a few, even going to the extent of humoring their opponents with whom they made peace. To quote only this one incident , conveniently ignoring the savage barbarianism committed on millions, does not make Tipu Sultan any better. That guy deserves a place in history for having orchestrated crimes against Non-muslim humanity along with his father Hyder Ali, and their notorious colleagues who were Muslim Kings up north and to the east of their kingdom, some of whom belonged to the Mughal Dynasty.

It is a sad thing that in sikular India, we have to ars-lick and praise barbarians to be called civilized.

Hopefully, this fukular culture of insecular (insecure Smile

) Indians will wind down now that CONmen are out of power.

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