Hindutva = Radical Islam

by confuzzled dude Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:06 pm

"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:10 pm

Sikularism = Self-deprecation. Very Happy

by confuzzled dude Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:13 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Sikularism = Self-deprecation.

This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.

by truthbetold Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:34 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

Hindutva, Christian right and radical islam do share some similarities. The mistake these semi intelligent writers make is to gather few facts and make a leap of faith. X is terrorist, y and z have some similarities to it, therefore y and z are terrorists is a lazy theory. It is similar to the argument every time a politico behaves a little obnoxious, he is labelled as Hitler. GOP labelled Obama a Hitler.

If hindutva has problems, highlight them. Remembering India is not same as pakistan and other islamic nations, try to show what could go wrong with hindutva (one extreme option could be radical islam and terrorism but it is not the only or most likely option).

by confuzzled dude Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:52 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true
Hindutva, Christian right and radical islam do share some similarities. The mistake these semi intelligent writers make is to gather few facts and make a leap of faith. X is terrorist, y and z have some similarities to it, therefore y and z are terrorists is a lazy theory. It is similar to the argument every time a politico behaves a little obnoxious, he is labelled as Hitler. GOP labelled Obama a Hitler.

If hindutva has problems, highlight them. Remembering India is not same as pakistan and other islamic nations, try to show what could go wrong with hindutva (one extreme option could be radical islam and terrorism but it is not the only or most likely option).

That's precisely what this author was trying to convey. For all its faults, congress ensured that India remained a democratic nation; imagine a bigot like Modi running the country for 50 years, India would've tuned into another Pakistan or close to it by now.

by truthbetold Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:19 pm

Modi as PM for 50 years:
Or india could have been a real economic powerhouse and religion would have lost all of its power in directing people's action.

What a loss!

One can only hope we do not see that dynastic family does not ever come back to power.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:42 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Sikularism = Self-deprecation.
This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.

NDA will bring prosperity to India. Just wait and watch. Sonia, Pappu and Vadra will be lucky if the people won't revolt against them in the next 5-10 years. They are better off to read about Marie Antoinette and Chauchesku (Ceauşescu) and save their hide. For all you know, it may well be a member of the CON vote-bank that may attack these characters.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:19 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Sikularism = Self-deprecation.
This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.
NDA will bring prosperity to India. Just wait and watch. Sonia, Pappu and Vadra will be lucky if the people won't revolt against them in the next 5-10 years. They are better off to read about Marie Antoinette and Chauchesku (Ceauşescu) and save their hide. For all you know, it may well be a member of the CON vote-bank that may attack these characters.

Hmm.. why does this sound like a brainwashed teenager turned jihadist dreaming of 72 virgins.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:41 am

truthbetold wrote:Modi as PM for 50 years:
Or india could have been a real economic powerhouse and religion would have lost all of its power in directing people's action.

What a loss!

One can only hope we do not see that dynastic family does not ever come back to power.

right, what a loss! Here are a few glimpses of real economic powerhouse.

Mandating all men to sport forehead long tilak
Daily prayers in parliament, in front of Savarkar's portrait
Making RSS a mandatory subject along with Hindi, in classrooms.
Promotions for eliminating a Muslim or Christian.
-Killing 100+ muslims will ensure minister-ship; over 1000, you will be competing for PM-giri.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:01 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Modi as PM for 50 years:
Or india could have been a real economic powerhouse and religion would have lost all of its power in directing people's action.

What a loss!

One can only hope we do not see that dynastic family does not ever come back to power.
right, what a loss! Here are a few glimpses of real economic powerhouse.

Mandating all men to sport forehead long tilak
Daily prayers in parliament, in front of Savarkar's portrait
Making RSS a mandatory subject along with Hindi, in classrooms.
Promotions for eliminating a Muslim or Christian.
-Killing 100+ muslims will ensure minister-ship; over 1000, you will be competing for PM-giri.

Jaundiced out look. Take good medicine. Otherwise the jealously will burn you from inside.

by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:02 am

How did the word "Radical" pop into the above?

Hindutva is the Sanskrit expression for the belief system of Hindus and its equivalent word in English is Hinduism (the religion or belief system of Hindus). Thus Hindutva is to Hindus what Islam is to Muslims, Judaism to Jews, Christianity to Christians, and so on.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:12 am

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Modi as PM for 50 years:
Or india could have been a real economic powerhouse and religion would have lost all of its power in directing people's action.

What a loss!

One can only hope we do not see that dynastic family does not ever come back to power.
right, what a loss! Here are a few glimpses of real economic powerhouse.

Mandating all men to sport forehead long tilak
Daily prayers in parliament, in front of Savarkar's portrait
Making RSS a mandatory subject along with Hindi, in classrooms.
Promotions for eliminating a Muslim or Christian.
-Killing 100+ muslims will ensure minister-ship; over 1000, you will be competing for PM-giri.
Jaundiced out look. Take good medicine. Otherwise the jealously will burn you from inside.

You are in urgent need of smelling salts treatment to shake-off those concussion effects adversely impacting normal brain functions Razz

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:32 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:How did the word "Radical" pop into the above?

Hindutva is the Sanskrit expression for the belief system of Hindus and its equivalent word in English is Hinduism (the religion or belief system of Hindus). Thus Hindutva is to Hindus what Islam is to Muslims, Judaism to Jews, Christianity to Christians, and so on.

You should check with Modi types, who seems you have been brainwashed into that line of [radical] thinking.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:00 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Sikularism = Self-deprecation.
This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.
NDA will bring prosperity to India. Just wait and watch. Sonia, Pappu and Vadra will be lucky if the people won't revolt against them in the next 5-10 years. They are better off to read about Marie Antoinette and Chauchesku (Ceauşescu) and save their hide. For all you know, it may well be a member of the CON vote-bank that may attack these characters.
Hmm.. why does this sound like a brainwashed teenager turned jihadist dreaming of 72 virgins.

This was how CONartists like Diggy, Jairam, Priyanka, etc., were talking before the election. The voters have given them a mirror to find who the real fools are.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:10 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Sikularism = Self-deprecation.
This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.
NDA will bring prosperity to India. Just wait and watch. Sonia, Pappu and Vadra will be lucky if the people won't revolt against them in the next 5-10 years. They are better off to read about Marie Antoinette and Chauchesku (Ceauşescu) and save their hide. For all you know, it may well be a member of the CON vote-bank that may attack these characters.
Hmm.. why does this sound like a brainwashed teenager turned jihadist dreaming of 72 virgins.
This was how CONartists like Diggy, Jairam, Priyanka, etc., were talking before the election. The voters have given them a mirror to find who the real fools are.

There seem to be few people who refuse to use the mirror. We have few of those die-hards on such.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:23 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
This kind of argument is very similar to that of Mullahs that you love to hate.
NDA will bring prosperity to India. Just wait and watch. Sonia, Pappu and Vadra will be lucky if the people won't revolt against them in the next 5-10 years. They are better off to read about Marie Antoinette and Chauchesku (Ceauşescu) and save their hide. For all you know, it may well be a member of the CON vote-bank that may attack these characters.
Hmm.. why does this sound like a brainwashed teenager turned jihadist dreaming of 72 virgins.
This was how CONartists like Diggy, Jairam, Priyanka, etc., were talking before the election. The voters have given them a mirror to find who the real fools are.
There seem to be few people who refuse to use the mirror. We have few of those die-hards on such.

Like the ones that keep praising a murderer of thousands of innocent citizens as if he is next coming Lord Krishna, and kowtowing to his right-wing ideologue & half-baked ideas.

"Mr. Modi has begun appointing individuals who are adherents or sympathisers of the hardline Hindu fundamentalist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) to serve as ministers and as heads of cultural and educational institutions. He has shown little interest in the services of former secularists, liberals and feminists who had indicated their willingness, even eagerness, to work with him once he took office. "

by rawemotions Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:58 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.

B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age

C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:08 pm

rawemotions wrote:
I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.

Gujarat, Gujarat and Gujarat.

rawemotions wrote:
B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age

What do you think of RSS thugs manhandling women for celebrating valentines day or being at pubs

rawemotions wrote:
C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.

*ahem* Ram Janmabhoomi

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:46 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

great article. A true hindu...and objective outlook....

..Hindus are proud of Ananya - the model hindu..

Hope all the hindu fanatics learn from her.

by confuzzled dude Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:27 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

great article. A true hindu...and objective outlook....

..Hindus are proud of Ananya - the model hindu..

Hope all the hindu fanatics learn from her.

Yup. You should start carrying a book with you (which one would that be, Bhagavadgitha or Ramayana?) and call it the book; start praying 5 times a day and make a trip to Kashi every year.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:57 am

Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

by Kris Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:27 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:22 pm

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.

by rawemotions Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:11 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.
Gujarat, Gujarat and Gujarat.

rawemotions wrote:
B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age
What do you think of RSS thugs manhandling women for celebrating valentines day or being at pubs

rawemotions wrote:
C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.
*ahem* Ram Janmabhoomi

Your response is a Joke. None of the points highlighted in RED have been touched upon. To cite one off incidents, compared to repeated occurrences of such behavior in Political Islam, is meaningless.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:44 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.

Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:48 pm

rawemotions wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.
Gujarat, Gujarat and Gujarat.

rawemotions wrote:
B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age
What do you think of RSS thugs manhandling women for celebrating valentines day or being at pubs

rawemotions wrote:
C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.
*ahem* Ram Janmabhoomi
Your response is a Joke. None of the points highlighted in RED have been touched upon. To cite one off incidents, compared to repeated occurrences of such behavior in Political Islam, is meaningless.

So is your nonsense; none of that balderdash that you routinely blurt out makes any sense.

by Mauni Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:55 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:"The problem with Hindutva, which has impeded its capture of the average Hindu’s political and cultural imagination, is that it is the outcome not so much of hatred for others, especially Muslims, but rather of Hindu self-hate. It’s a historic and possibly doomed attempt to change everything about Hinduism that makes it what it is — its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/hind-swaraj-vs-hindu-rashtra/article6201620.ece?homepage=true

— its ability to accommodate mind-boggling diversity, its avoidance of strict definitions and boundaries, its amorphous, heterogeneous, tolerant and fluid character.

The author is saying that it is because of Hinduism that so many religions were accommodated in India over the centuries. So it's not the Nehruvian secularism that did the trick, as we are brainwashed into believing all these years.

Hindutva wants to “Semitize” Hinduism, giving it a god, a book, a revelation, a prophet, an ecclesiastical order, a pontiff, a race, a language, a country (or a holy land), a history, a canon, doctrinal stability and missionary zeal. It’s an attempt to standardise, essentialise, codify and systematise a vast universe of incommensurate beliefs, practices, rituals, theologies and narratives — to render Hinduism modern and modular."

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:00 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

Hahahaha.... you are right.. The iSlamic fundamentalism promoted hinduism "took care" of 1000s of temples (> 3000 actually) and saved millions of hindus from worshipping octupus-like mythical creatures while "blessing" millions of hindu women over centuries.

Right...they never did anythinb grave to India.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:07 pm

Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.

No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:10 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

Hahahaha.... you are right.. The iSlamic fundamentalism promoted hinduism "took care" of 1000s of temples (> 3000 actually) and saved millions of hindus from worshipping octupus-like mythical creatures while "blessing" millions of hindu women over centuries.

Right...they never did anythinb grave to India.

The very fact that India still is a majority Hindu country proves that point.

by Mauni Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:18 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.
No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.

When the other one is better than what this one already is, then why is it wrong when this one morphs itself into the other?

by rawemotions Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:23 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.
Gujarat, Gujarat and Gujarat.

rawemotions wrote:
B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age
What do you think of RSS thugs manhandling women for celebrating valentines day or being at pubs

rawemotions wrote:
C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.
*ahem* Ram Janmabhoomi
Your response is a Joke. None of the points highlighted in RED have been touched upon. To cite one off incidents, compared to repeated occurrences of such behavior in Political Islam, is meaningless.
So is your nonsense; none of that balderdash that you routinely blurt out makes any sense.

I said your comparison was nonsense. I cited examples of what is generally accepted definitions and roots of radical Political Islam. While I highlighted clear points, without responding point by point you are resorting to generalized statements. Not unexpected from someone who does not have answers. However, I am not going to fall for these diversionary tactics.

It is clear from your response that you know zilch about Radical Political Islam, nor seem to understand what radical political Islam really means, or its origins that are based on Islamic Supremacist doctrine.

Any discussion with somebody who is coloured by his own deep prejudice, and has a very shallow understanding of the terms they use, is a waste. It is clear that given the shallow understanding/thinking behind your argument, it is not worth a discussion.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:29 pm

Mauni wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.
No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.
When the other one is better than what this one already is, then why is it wrong when this one morphs itself into the other?

Where does the question of better or not, arise? her point is be your original self.

by confuzzled dude Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:38 pm

rawemotions wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
I do not see any reference in this article to Radical Islam. Clearly the author seems to know better.

Equating Radical (Political) Islam to Hindutva (whatever it means) is nonsense.

Radical (Political) Islam stems from
A) a Political Islamist doctrine, that is enmeshed with religious texts, and allegedly uses theology to encourage Islamic Supremacist views among Muslims, denigrating all other religions and legalizing persecution of Non-muslims.
Gujarat, Gujarat and Gujarat.

rawemotions wrote:
B) Medieval religious practices, that allegedly justify treatment of women as lesser beings and slaves of men (legalizing polygamy , forcing burqa, and forcing women to only be involved in child-rearing) giving the men an incentive to support the slave master mentality, with the benefits of multiple wives, even in modern age
What do you think of RSS thugs manhandling women for celebrating valentines day or being at pubs

rawemotions wrote:
C) The same religious texts that are used as a ruse to suppress & persecute any kind of dissent (apostasy laws etc..) from moderate muslims or tolerate opposing views (Sufi, Ahmadiyyas or bohras thought process) or allow any modifications to the Political Islamist theology, thus keeping them medieval.

Comparatively, and largely, Hinduism has none of these elements mentioned above. Even if it gets organized, the most important aspect is that its DNA is the opposite of (C) and certainly does not have (A). It even allows atheism as a form of Hinduism, as long as the views are NOT thrust on others. So in terms of threat to other religions and humanity, radical political Islam stands apart.
*ahem* Ram Janmabhoomi
Your response is a Joke. None of the points highlighted in RED have been touched upon. To cite one off incidents, compared to repeated occurrences of such behavior in Political Islam, is meaningless.
So is your nonsense; none of that balderdash that you routinely blurt out makes any sense.
I said your comparison was nonsense. I cited examples of what is generally accepted definitions and roots of radical Political Islam. While I highlighted clear points, without responding point by point you are resorting to generalized statements. Not unexpected from someone who does not have answers. However, I am not going to fall for these diversionary tactics.

It is clear from your response that you know zilch about Radical Political Islam, nor seem to understand what radical political Islam really means, or its origins that are based on Islamic Supremacist doctrine.

Any discussion with somebody who is coloured by his own deep prejudice, and has a very shallow understanding of the terms they use, is a waste. It is clear that given the shallow understanding/thinking behind your argument, it is not worth a discussion.

If you do not believe that BJP/RSS and its Sangh Parivars do not indulge in the very activities mentioned in your point A, then there is not much to discuss. They do all of that, in fact that's how they went onto improve their LS seat count from 3 to 100+, by fostering radical political hinduism a.k.a hindutva through rath yatra etc., Rath Yatra probably was the lowest point of Independent India.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:50 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

Hahahaha.... you are right.. The iSlamic fundamentalism promoted hinduism "took care" of 1000s of temples (> 3000 actually) and saved millions of hindus from worshipping octupus-like mythical creatures while "blessing" millions of hindu women over centuries.

Right...they never did anythinb grave to India.
The very fact that India still is a majority Hindu country proves that point.

Can you say with certainty that when hindus are 40% at some point in future, hindus will be treated by the muslims as equals?

by Mauni Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:50 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.
No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.
When the other one is better than what this one already is, then why is it wrong when this one morphs itself into the other?
Where does the question of better or not, arise? her point is be your original self.

...and why is it a problem if it doesn't remain its original self?

The problem with you guys is that you don't recognize the goodness of hinduism when it remains its original self. You look down upon it and abuse it. But when you feel that it's slowly morphing itself into the Semitic religions, you panic and oppose the change. Why the resistance? Double standards much. aren't they?

by Kris Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:19 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

>>>Is your point that Islamic fundamentalism is a good thing or it shouldn't be questioned or countered?

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:25 am

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

This proposal is flawed. Absent Islamic fundamentalism the Hindu fundamentalists have many things to fight for. For instance: discourage or ban or attack people going to pubs, discourage or prevent girls wearing skirts in schools ( and encourage or insist that they wear skirt and blouse), discourage or attack youngsters celebrating Valentine's Day, rewrite history books and try to show that Ramayana and Mahabharata are representing history and not mythology, try to show that the ancient hindus of Rig Vedic times were well acquainted with modern science and technology, and so on.

by Kris Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:50 am

Rashmun wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

This proposal is flawed. Absent Islamic fundamentalism the Hindu fundamentalists have many things to fight for. For instance: discourage or ban or attack people going to pubs, discourage or prevent girls wearing skirts in schools ( and encourage or insist that they wear skirt and blouse), discourage or attack youngsters celebrating Valentine's Day, rewrite history books and try to show that Ramayana and Mahabharata are representing history and not mythology, try to show that the ancient hindus of Rig Vedic times were well acquainted with modern science and technology, and so on.

>>This group may want to fight for many of these things, but it won't get traction among the general population. Hindus, given their multiplicity of beliefs and having no particular visceral dislike for science, won't be easily swayed. If you explore this further, there really is no downside to a hindu not buying into of these items, as there is no tangible hell for him to go and therefore, he has no vested interest in this.

by confuzzled dude Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:17 pm

Mauni wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.
No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.
When the other one is better than what this one already is, then why is it wrong when this one morphs itself into the other?
Where does the question of better or not, arise? her point is be your original self.
...and why is it a problem if it doesn't remain its original self?

The problem with you guys is that you don't recognize the goodness of hinduism when it remains its original self. You look down upon it and abuse it. But when you feel that it's slowly morphing itself into the Semitic religions, you panic and oppose the change. Why the resistance? Double standards much. aren't they?

Problem with you guys!!! Really? No religion in this world is perfect, certain tenets do not fit into civilized world and need to be criticized, which is different than looking down. BTW, these hindutva-vadis are to Hinduism, what Wahabbists are to Islam or extreme right-wing nuts are to Christianity. Don't confuse them with the likes of Buddha or Raja Ram Mohan Roy; if it was to them they would force widows shave their heads and make them wear white saree, and will bring back sati like practices.

by confuzzled dude Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:24 pm

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Union tourism minister Shripad Naik wants to end ‘pub culture’:

Naik joins a list of ministers in the BJP-led coalition ostensibly trying to protect India's culture. Goa's transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavalikar, from the ruling-BJP's ally, the MGP, had recently sought a ban on pub culture in Goa, remarking young girls going to pubs in skirts was against Goan culture. He had also wanted a ban on bikinis on Goa's beaches.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Union-tourism-minister-Shripad-Naik-wants-to-end-pub-culture/articleshow/38280819.cms

-> If these hindutva vAdis were alive during Vatsayana days, they probably would've stoned him to death.

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

>>>Is your point that Islamic fundamentalism is a good thing or it shouldn't be questioned or countered?

Where did I imply that? Islamic fundamentalism has got nothing to do with Hindutva's end goal rather it has everything to do with taking Hinduism back to pre-medieval times. I concur with author's point that problem with Hindutva vadis is their Hindu self-hate.

by Kris Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:37 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:

>>>>Here's a solution to the h-va problem. Come down hard on Islamic fundamentalism. Absent that, these guys would have had nothing to fight against and have had no following. Instead, we had decades of political appeasement which gave credibility to the h-va crowd. Once you have that kind of cred, you come out in all your full glory and the populace ends up having to grin and bear it.

Komboletely agree... First control the "Majority" and everything will fall in place.
Really! when did Islamic fundamentalism has been a grave issue in India to come down hard on them?

>>>Is your point that Islamic fundamentalism is a good thing or it shouldn't be questioned or countered?
Where did I imply that? Islamic fundamentalism has got nothing to do with Hindutva's end goal rather it has everything to do with taking Hinduism back to pre-medieval times. I concur with author's point that problem with Hindutva vadis is their Hindu self-hate.

>> Hindutva's end goal would be irrelevant if it had no traction. Said traction came about because the public saw the government and media as apologists and appeasers for fundamentalist Islam's doings. We can be in denial of this and continue to talk around this 900 lb gorilla or face facts. The author's dark brooding of the religion being taken to pre-medieval times is very dramatic, but it is essentially nothing more than an attempt at contrived similarity with islam. Hindus may have many problems, but they did not hold a country together for 60+ years by being susceptible to the rants of any extremist movement that comes along. At the same time, there is definitely an understanding now that a 'mea culpa' approach has not stood them in good stead.

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:34 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
"Mr. Modi has begun appointing individuals who are adherents or sympathisers of the hardline Hindu fundamentalist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) to serve as ministers and as heads of cultural and educational institutions. He has shown little interest in the services of former secularists, liberals and feminists who had indicated their willingness, even eagerness, to work with him once he took office. "

Great move! Next step is to clean up the sickularists in the media and replace them with RSS and RSS-inspired guys. Then, idiots like confused douche and doucheman will have only forums like this one where they can repeat their b.s. to their heart's content. Very Happy

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:36 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Rath Yatra probably was the lowest point of Independent India.

Yep, just before the Rath Yatra was the lowest point for Hindus in Independent India. Since then, we have steadily gained and risen. The initial spark for this rise and revival was that Rath Yatra. If not for that Rath Yatra, we wouldn't have a Modi-led government with a solid majority voted in by a consolidation of the Hindus in the country. Awesome job all around! clap

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:37 pm

Kris wrote:
>> Hindutva's end goal would be irrelevant if it had no traction.

Exactly what do you think is "Hindutva's end goal"?

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:39 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Like the ones that keep praising a murderer of thousands of innocent citizens as if he is next coming Lord Krishna, and kowtowing to his right-wing ideologue & half-baked ideas.

There is a reason why there have been no religious riots in Gujarat for 12+ years now, with people enjoying peace and prosperity, while riots keep happening in UP every few months, sometimes as much as 100+ riots in a single year! The reason is left for the intelligent reader to work out by himself/herself. Question

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:41 pm

"Hindutva = Radical Islam" is similar to "Modi = Hitler."

Both are idiotic, absurd statements with no basis in facts, repeated again and again by sickularists whose collective ass is severely burnt again and again by Modi! Laughing

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Kris wrote:
Hindus may have many problems, but they did not hold a country together for 60+ years by being susceptible to the rants of any extremist movement that comes along.

Correction - Hindus have upheld the country and brought it together again and again and again through thousands of years of history.

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:45 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
if it was to them they would force widows shave their heads and make them wear white saree, and will bring back sati like practices.

Calm down there, sister! Your PMS is acting up again.

by SomeProfile Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:48 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Mauni wrote:

-and she's implying that Semitic religions are very bad and are against peaceful co-existence with others.
No, All she is saying is, don't try to morph Hinduism into what it is not.

I bet the author of that article, confused douche, doucheman and other sickularists would have said a similar thing if they existed when Shivaji fought to build a strong Hindu kingdom in opposition to the Islamic sultans in the North and the South.

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