Hard Secularism: How Turkey handled its "Ram Mandir" problem

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Propagandhi711 wrote:doucheman, some uptodate info about your favorite islamic beacon that holds all the answers. read and weep:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/12/middle-east-gone-as-know-it-2014122911351266247.html

Turkey has also positioned itself within the region very differently from previous years. Turkey is seeking to revive itself in a fashion more in line with its historical roots, lifting the hijab ban in educational institutions, seeking to revive the Ottoman language, and emphasising religious symbolism in domestic and international politics.
In 2014 Turkey continued to distance itself from Israel, and unwaveringly criticised it, while being supportive of the Palestinian cause. It has continued to be a strong supporter of the Arab Spring, which has antagonised some of its Arab neighbours. Although Ankara was traditionally close to the Assad regime, today it has become one of its enemies, supporting the Syrian opposition. Most importantly, Turkey has gone from being a staunch advocate of secularism to a country which Islamists in the region look up to and seek help from.

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

Happy New Year to you too and thanks for sharing your views on Ataturk. I am afraid this is the only model that is likely to work in places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. These countries need an Ataturk to crack the whip on the religious fundamentalists.

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

Happy New Year to you too and thanks for sharing your views on Ataturk. I am afraid this is the only model that is likely to work in places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. These countries need an Ataturk to crack the whip on the religious fundamentalists.

>>>Even in Turkey, there is a tug-o-war still. That is after several decades of the secular model. The problem with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is that in both cases, the ruling establishment has actively used the extremists to further its own ends. In Pakistan, they have used the terrorists spawned by the extremism to conduct a proxy war against India. There are voices now condemning this India obsession and questioning why the home-grown terrorists are allowed to roam freely, but these are the moderates and have little political voice. Musharaff used to fancy himself as a pakistani Ataturk, due to having lived in Turkey when he was young. At the end of the day, he was still part of the military establishment and also had the India complex.  Also, with him, this was probably posturing for the West. I am not sure how these countries can ever get out of this morass, considering where they are now.

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

rawemotions wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

This is a reasonable assessment.  As Propa indicated in another post, things have distinctly taken a turn towards the worst, since the political Islamist dispensation came to power to Turkey. The true secularists who hate the practice of forcing the Hijab on women in rural areas in the name of culture, are fighting the political Islamists, but they are unable to win. 
Now Turkey with a soft Political Islamist rule, is playing a dangerous game with a Wink and Nod towards ISIS. Allowing supplies to ISIS controlled areas, allowing flow of personnel into ISIS areas and allegedly allowing clandestine sale of oil from ISIS areas.

However, the topic of this post is meaningless. Comparing Hagia_Sophia to Ram Mandir is like comparing Apples to Oranges, and these two cannot be more different. Hagia Sophia was not the Vatican of Roman Catholics. Also the population of Roman Catholics in Turkey is not 80%. If it had been so, Kemal would have turned it back into a Church that it was. He knew turning it back to the Church would rub salt into the imaginary wounds of the Political Islamist Mullahs. So he probably did it in 1931 to curry favor with the west by doing something symbolic, knowing fully well that as far as Islam is concerned, a Mosque is not a place that God resides  (so not much is lost by moving one or reducing one)and can be torn down and re-constructed anywhere else.

rawemotions wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Hagia Sophia (/ˈhɑː.ɪə soʊˈfi.ə/; from the Greek: Ἁγία Σοφία, "Holy Wisdom"; Latin: Sancta Sophia or Sancta Sapientia; Turkish: Ayasofya) is a former Greek Orthodox patriarchal basilica (church), later an imperial mosque, and now a museum (Ayasofya Müzesi) in Istanbul, Turkey. From the date of its construction in 537 until 1453, it served as an Eastern Orthodox cathedral and seat of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,[1] except between 1204 and 1261, when it was converted to a Roman Catholic cathedral under the Latin Empire. The building was a mosque from 29 May 1453 until 1931. It was then secularized and opened as a museum on 1 February 1935.[2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

This is a reasonable assessment.  As Propa indicated in another post, things have distinctly taken a turn towards the worst, since the political Islamist dispensation came to power to Turkey. The true secularists who hate the practice of forcing the Hijab on women in rural areas in the name of culture, are fighting the political Islamists, but they are unable to win. 
Now Turkey with a soft Political Islamist rule, is playing a dangerous game with a Wink and Nod towards ISIS. Allowing supplies to ISIS controlled areas, allowing flow of personnel into ISIS areas and allegedly allowing clandestine sale of oil from ISIS areas.

However, the topic of this post is meaningless. Comparing Hagia_Sophia to Ram Mandir is like comparing Apples to Oranges, and these two cannot be more different. Hagia Sophia was not the Vatican of Roman Catholics. Also the population of Roman Catholics in Turkey is not 80%. If it had been so, Kemal would have turned it back into a Church that it was. He knew turning it back to the Church would rub salt into the imaginary wounds of the Political Islamist Mullahs. So he probably did it in 1931 to curry favor with the west by doing something symbolic, knowing fully well that as far as Islam is concerned, a Mosque is not a place that God resides  (so not much is lost by moving one or reducing one)and can be torn down and re-constructed anywhere else.

Rashmun wrote:

rawemotions wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>It is also a great tourist attraction in a beautiful city, which blends east and west.

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

This is a reasonable assessment.  As Propa indicated in another post, things have distinctly taken a turn towards the worst, since the political Islamist dispensation came to power to Turkey. The true secularists who hate the practice of forcing the Hijab on women in rural areas in the name of culture, are fighting the political Islamists, but they are unable to win. 
Now Turkey with a soft Political Islamist rule, is playing a dangerous game with a Wink and Nod towards ISIS. Allowing supplies to ISIS controlled areas, allowing flow of personnel into ISIS areas and allegedly allowing clandestine sale of oil from ISIS areas.

However, the topic of this post is meaningless. Comparing Hagia_Sophia to Ram Mandir is like comparing Apples to Oranges, and these two cannot be more different. Hagia Sophia was not the Vatican of Roman Catholics. Also the population of Roman Catholics in Turkey is not 80%. If it had been so, Kemal would have turned it back into a Church that it was. He knew turning it back to the Church would rub salt into the imaginary wounds of the Political Islamist Mullahs. So he probably did it in 1931 to curry favor with the west by doing something symbolic, knowing fully well that as far as Islam is concerned, a Mosque is not a place that God resides  (so not much is lost by moving one or reducing one)and can be torn down and re-constructed anywhere else.

Regarding the last paragraph of rawemotions I will point out that the dominant school in Hindu philosophy is the Advaita Vedanta according to which everything and everyone is Brahman(God) and there is no difference between the creator and the created. So a Hindu temple, according to Advaita , is not some special place where God resides and you can do to it what you can do--as per rawemotions--to a mosque.

rawemotions wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

rawemotions wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

This is a reasonable assessment.  As Propa indicated in another post, things have distinctly taken a turn towards the worst, since the political Islamist dispensation came to power to Turkey. The true secularists who hate the practice of forcing the Hijab on women in rural areas in the name of culture, are fighting the political Islamists, but they are unable to win. 
Now Turkey with a soft Political Islamist rule, is playing a dangerous game with a Wink and Nod towards ISIS. Allowing supplies to ISIS controlled areas, allowing flow of personnel into ISIS areas and allegedly allowing clandestine sale of oil from ISIS areas.

However, the topic of this post is meaningless. Comparing Hagia_Sophia to Ram Mandir is like comparing Apples to Oranges, and these two cannot be more different. Hagia Sophia was not the Vatican of Roman Catholics. Also the population of Roman Catholics in Turkey is not 80%. If it had been so, Kemal would have turned it back into a Church that it was. He knew turning it back to the Church would rub salt into the imaginary wounds of the Political Islamist Mullahs. So he probably did it in 1931 to curry favor with the west by doing something symbolic, knowing fully well that as far as Islam is concerned, a Mosque is not a place that God resides  (so not much is lost by moving one or reducing one)and can be torn down and re-constructed anywhere else.

Regarding the last paragraph of rawemotions I will point out that the dominant school in Hindu philosophy is the Advaita Vedanta according to which everything and everyone is Brahman(God) and there is no difference between the creator and the created. So a Hindu temple, according to Advaita , is not some special place where God resides and you can do to it what you can do--as per rawemotions--to a mosque.

In most cases, in India, a temple is a place where god resides. Every temple undergoes a ritual to imbibe the Idol with Prana (that is a part of adding powers to the idol). So it is total falsehood to claim that temple is nothing but a structure without powers. Either way, personal faith of Hindus is all that matters and it is independent on whatever might be the underlying philosophy.

Anyway, as explained earlier, in all other aspects also it is idiotic to compare the case in Turkey and sacred place like Ram Mandir. So there is nothing more to discuss there.

Ram Mandir and all other Mandirs in Kashi and Mathura that were destroyed by the Islamic invaders in the process of ethnic cleansing of Non-Muslims, need to be resurrected back as temples. The location of  mosque and the structures itself, is nothing of value to Islam, as God does not reside there. Still, the political islamists and their cronies, resists their relocation, only to prevent Hindus from regaining their places of worship, that is valuable to the Hindus. 

It just proves that, political Islamist hatred and bigotry, runs among the leaders who oppose simple solutions that involves relocating the mosques, that were constructed by destroying the original temples. Allegedly Fraudulent, Historians like Irfan Habib knew all this, that is why they opposed ASI discoveries that proved the existence of a temple structure below the Babri Masjid.

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kris wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Please share your views on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

>>>Happy New Year. To the extent of my knowledge of him, I would characterize Ataturk as a visionary, albeit one whose methods don't sit well with our modern day sensibilities. He acted with the goal of unshackling Turkey from its past which would have kept it down. Of course, the battle between the modern, secular Turkish Islam and the traditional Islamists keeps popping up in Turkey even now. I am not sure this model would work today, as top -down diktats to bring about change inevitably  involve running roughshod over people, which is not acceptable any more even when those people hold radically different views as compared to ours.

Happy New Year to you too and thanks for sharing your views on Ataturk. I am afraid this is the only model that is likely to work in places like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. These countries need an Ataturk to crack the whip on the religious fundamentalists.

>>>Even in Turkey, there is a tug-o-war still. That is after several decades of the secular model. The problem with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is that in both cases, the ruling establishment has actively used the extremists to further its own ends. In Pakistan, they have used the terrorists spawned by the extremism to conduct a proxy war against India. There are voices now condemning this India obsession and questioning why the home-grown terrorists are allowed to roam freely, but these are the moderates and have little political voice. Musharaff used to fancy himself as a pakistani Ataturk, due to having lived in Turkey when he was young. At the end of the day, he was still part of the military establishment and also had the India complex.  Also, with him, this was probably posturing for the West. I am not sure how these countries can ever get out of this morass, considering where they are now.

The tug of war in Turkey is continuing partly because in his zeal for secularism Ataturk may have gone too far. Not only was the burqa banned but even wearing the head scarf ( covering the hair) was also banned. I will point out that even in the US the head scarf has never been banned.
The ban on the head scarf continues to be in place in Turkey.

--
Prime Minister Erdoğan campaigned in his victorious 2007 campaign with a promise of lifting the longstanding ban on headscarves in public institutions. However, as the Turkish deputies voted in Parliament, tens of thousands protested outside in favour of the ban.[20]

On February 7, 2008, the Turkish Parliament passed an amendment to the constitution, allowing women to wear the headscarf in Turkish universities, arguing that many women would not seek an education if they could not wear the head scarf. The main political party, the Justice and Development Party and a key opposition party, the Nationalist Movement Party claimed that it was an issue of human rights and freedoms.[21][22][23][24] The Parliament voted 403-107 (a majority of 79 per cent) in favour of the first amendment, which was inserted into the constitution stating that everyone has the right to equal treatment from state institutions. However the move resulted in opposition throughout Turkey. The country's educational board and numerous universities vowed to defy the new law. In addition, the main pro-secular, opposition party of the Republican People's Party asked the constitutional court to block the new law passed, and viewed it is a move towards an Islamic state.[25] Thousands of demonstrators supporting the ban also gathered near the Parliament against the move by the government.[26]

Lifting of ban annulled
On 5 June 2008, Turkey's Constitutional Court annulled the parliament's proposed amendment intended to lift the headscarf ban, ruling that removing the ban was against the founding principles of the constitution. The highest court's decision to uphold the headscarf ban cannot be appealed (AP 7 June 2008).[27]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turkey