Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

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Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by TruthSeeker on Mon May 04, 2015 8:45 pm

Incredible poet, and I learnt even Ghalib was in awe of (that says something!)

To start with, here is what I am listening to:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAPIzPnY3HE

Earlier it was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDqAf7W8UpU


I shall post my thoughts, after I have learnt enough about Sir Khusro.

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue May 05, 2015 8:18 am

It seems there is a considerable influence of Ramanuja inspired bhakti movement (including the bhakti poetry and music) on Sufi and other poets / singers.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by TruthSeeker on Wed May 06, 2015 11:02 pm

Khusro....Ramanuja... Bhakti... *$#$%&$%&

Whatever!

I dont think so, those 2 individuals were born 1000s of years apart.

And I will not try to relate the two, for any reason.

I personally do not think that any original creativity has any religion or influence. 

It is what it is. 

This is not the direction, I want this thread to go to.

Regards,
TS.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu May 07, 2015 9:21 am

TS,

Amir Khusro was a brilliant man who lived in the Punjab region of India about 200 yrs (not 1000s yrs., as you seem to imply) after Ramanuja (born in south India). 

I am not trying to take away anything from Khusro by indicating that he seemed to have been influenced in his writings and creativity by the works and philosophy of Ramanuja (spiritually a Vishishtadavaiti). Ramanuja basically made the most significant and original contribution to the bhakti movement which included among other things a strong commitment / belief in the personal God and plurarlism (concepts also strongly adhered to in the Sufism, unlike in other forms of Islam and in countries e.g. Iran). 

Incidentally, the reason people think, albeit wrongly, that Sufism might have originated in Iran before moving to India is because the original thinkers and writers in Sufism (e.g. Amir Khusro) were Indian Muslims who did most of their important writings (including on religion, spirituality and music) in the Persian language (Farsi -- the court / official language of north-western India at that time). Since Farsi / Persian was / is also the language  of Persia / Iran, people seem to mistakenly believe that Sufism originated in Iran.  But that is simply due to the fact that the  original thinkers / writers in Sufism were Indian (Muslim by faith) who happened to write and use the Farsi language and had been exposed to bhakti movement.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 9:34 am

khusro was da man. agreed. he invented the tabla. chaap tilak is a nice song -- tickles me hear khusro wrote it in braj (which i understand but can't speak with fluency). i think it was either to entice or combat bhakti movement and it's followers (seva is right -- notice the meera motif) or because braj held prominence then (unlikely). great song!

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu May 07, 2015 2:10 pm

brie wrote:khusro was da man. agreed. he invented the tabla. chaap tilak is a nice song -- tickles me hear khusro wrote it in braj (which i understand but can't speak with fluency). i think it was either to entice or combat bhakti movement and it's followers (seva is right -- notice the meera motif) or because braj held prominence then (unlikely). great song!
The influence of bhakti movement is also indicated in the works (poetry etc.) of other Muslims (Kabir and Rasakhan, for example), besides Khusro's.  Moreover, even though the idea of a personal God (one of the important features in bhakti movement and also in Sufism) had existed prior to Ramanuja (e.g. in the Bhagavad Gita: Ch. 18 - V. 61 & 62), Ramanuja seems to have used it first broadly for a popular public movement (later known as bhakti movement).

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Thu May 07, 2015 8:06 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:TS,

Amir Khusro was a brilliant man who lived in the Punjab region of India about 200 yrs (not 1000s yrs., as you seem to imply) after Ramanuja (born in south India). 

I am not trying to take away anything from Khusro by indicating that he seemed to have been influenced in his writings and creativity by the works and philosophy of Ramanuja (spiritually a Vishishtadavaiti). Ramanuja basically made the most significant and original contribution to the bhakti movement which included among other things a strong commitment / belief in the personal God and plurarlism (concepts also strongly adhered to in the Sufism, unlike in other forms of Islam and in countries e.g. Iran). 

Incidentally, the reason people think, albeit wrongly, that Sufism might have originated in Iran before moving to India is because the original thinkers and writers in Sufism (e.g. Amir Khusro) were Indian Muslims who did most of their important writings (including on religion, spirituality and music) in the Persian language (Farsi -- the court / official language of north-western India at that time). Since Farsi / Persian was / is also the language  of Persia / Iran, people seem to mistakenly believe that Sufism originated in Iran.  But that is simply due to the fact that the  original thinkers / writers in Sufism were Indian (Muslim by faith) who happened to write and use the Farsi language and had been exposed to bhakti movement.

ramanuja was inspired by his predecessors, the azhwars who wrote melting and mystical poetry in thamizh, the pasurams. so if you are going to say that amir khusro was influenced by ramanuja, and i am not sure this is true, then ultimately the inspiration for amir khusro must go to the pasurams the azhwars wrote in thamizh.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri May 08, 2015 9:04 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:TS,

Amir Khusro was a brilliant man who lived in the Punjab region of India about 200 yrs (not 1000s yrs., as you seem to imply) after Ramanuja (born in south India). 

I am not trying to take away anything from Khusro by indicating that he seemed to have been influenced in his writings and creativity by the works and philosophy of Ramanuja (spiritually a Vishishtadavaiti). Ramanuja basically made the most significant and original contribution to the bhakti movement which included among other things a strong commitment / belief in the personal God and plurarlism (concepts also strongly adhered to in the Sufism, unlike in other forms of Islam and in countries e.g. Iran). 

Incidentally, the reason people think, albeit wrongly, that Sufism might have originated in Iran before moving to India is because the original thinkers and writers in Sufism (e.g. Amir Khusro) were Indian Muslims who did most of their important writings (including on religion, spirituality and music) in the Persian language (Farsi -- the court / official language of north-western India at that time). Since Farsi / Persian was / is also the language  of Persia / Iran, people seem to mistakenly believe that Sufism originated in Iran.  But that is simply due to the fact that the  original thinkers / writers in Sufism were Indian (Muslim by faith) who happened to write and use the Farsi language and had been exposed to bhakti movement.

ramanuja was inspired by his predecessors, the azhwars who wrote melting and mystical poetry in thamizh, the pasurams. so if you are going to say that amir khusro was influenced by ramanuja, and i am not sure this is true, then ultimately the inspiration for amir khusro must go to the pasurams the azhwars wrote in thamizh.
Although the smatterings of spirituality with regards to bhakti tradition were there even before Ramanuja, the vast popularity and rapid acceptance of Bhakti movement among public all around were mostly due to Ramanuja because he not only used a systematic approach in organizing it but he was also able to support and back it up philosophically (using the Vishishtadvaita) and with his brilliant scriptural commentaries (including on the Vedanta Sutra and the Bhagavad Gita, etc.). 

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri May 08, 2015 12:32 pm

in the vishistadvaita tradition which i know well through marriage, it is generally accepted that the main source of rAmAnuja's inspiration were the 12 Azhwars and their poetry. there may have been other sources of inspiration, but the pasurams were central. i speak as someone who is well acquainted with the poetry (through my own reading) and its importance to vishistadvaita through marriage.

since seva tends to repeat things ad nauseam without the slightest attempt at a conversation (it is true because he said so type of an argument), i probably won't have much more to add to this.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri May 08, 2015 12:37 pm

ramanuja and the divya prabhandam (the pasurams):

http://yabaluri.org/TRIVENI/CDWEB/sriramanujaanddivyaprabandhamoct95.htm

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri May 08, 2015 12:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the vishistadvaita tradition which i know well through marriage, it is generally accepted that the main source of rAmAnuja's inspiration were the 12 Azhwars and their poetry. there may have been other sources of inspiration, but the pasurams were central.  i speak as someone who is well acquainted with the poetry (through my own reading) and its importance to vishistadvaita through marriage.

since seva tends to repeat things ad nauseam without the slightest attempt at a conversation (it is true because he said so type of an argument), i probably won't have much more to add to this.
if you think everything Ramanuja did in terms of philosophy was already there in the poetry etc. of Azhwars and others, then why is he recognized as the pioneer (at least as one of the most important contributors) for Vishishtadvaita?

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Fri May 08, 2015 7:06 pm

i said they were a central source of inspiration. i didn't say all of his output was already in the pasurams.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 8:28 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the vishistadvaita tradition which i know well through marriage, it is generally accepted that the main source of rAmAnuja's inspiration were the 12 Azhwars and their poetry. there may have been other sources of inspiration, but the pasurams were central.  i speak as someone who is well acquainted with the poetry (through my own reading) and its importance to vishistadvaita through marriage.

since seva tends to repeat things ad nauseam without the slightest attempt at a conversation (it is true because he said so type of an argument), i probably won't have much more to add to this.
if you think everything Ramanuja did in terms of philosophy was already there in the poetry etc. of Azhwars and others, then why is he recognized as the pioneer (at least as one of the most important contributors) for Vishishtadvaita?

It is pointless arguing with Max on this issue. First, he is ignorant about what he is talking about and secondly because he has an agenda. All serious students of Indian philosophy know that Ramanuja's tamil poems were meant for popular consumption by the ( tamil speaking) masses. It was Ramanuja's writings in Sanskrit ( including his lengthy diatribe against Adi Sankara's views in his commentary on the Brahma Sutra) which were aimed at intellectuals and which established Ramanuja's reputation as a major philosopher.

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

Post by TruthSeeker on Sun May 17, 2015 11:57 pm

There is a reason why Brits could rule over us for 100s of years.

They divided us.

I posted this so others could share the "creativity" of Sir Khusro, not to start a Bhakti movement.

If a TS could achieve Bhakti, without questioning, s/he wont be one.

Lets bring out the creative aspect of Khusro. I do know He was an ocean!

Regards,
TS

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Re: Amir Khusro - Height of Creativity!

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