Mughals in History, Philosophy, Politics, and Religion

by indophile Thu May 05, 2011 3:36 pm

May be soon they will make it to Family, Music, Movies, Fun, Romance, and anything else out there.

by Hellsangel Thu May 05, 2011 3:37 pm

If Babur had not invaded India, would the concept of greater Hindustan existed?

by indophile Thu May 05, 2011 3:39 pm

Hellsangel wrote:If Babur had not invaded India, would the concept of greater Hindustan existed?

What is that?

by Hellsangel Thu May 05, 2011 3:41 pm

Akhand Bharat if you will.

by charvaka Thu May 05, 2011 4:16 pm

Hellsangel wrote:If Babur had not invaded India, would the concept of greater Hindustan existed?

Hindustan is Akhand Bharat, no? Greater Hindustan would be Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal, etc. that some irredentist Hindus envisioned as being part of a future India. Historically though, large parts of Afghanistan were part of the Indian cultural sphere. So Babar wasn't the reason for Indians to look at Afghans as kinsmen. The guy who defeated his son was an Afghan; Afghans ruled parts of northindia even before Babur.

by Hellsangel Thu May 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Where is Rashman when you need him?

by Mosquito Thu May 05, 2011 4:29 pm

indophile wrote:May be soon they will make it to Family, Music, Movies, Fun, Romance, and anything else out there.

They already have.

by doofus_maximus Thu May 05, 2011 4:30 pm

PseudoIntellectual wrote:
indophile wrote:May be soon they will make it to Family, Music, Movies, Fun, Romance, and anything else out there.

They already have.

profound..

by Another Brick Fri May 06, 2011 1:31 am

charvaka wrote: Historically though, large parts of Afghanistan were part of the Indian cultural sphere.

yeah, wasn't gandhari from kabul? of course, sevaji might have a different theory and might suggest that she was from colaba.

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 1:34 am

Another Brick wrote:
charvaka wrote: Historically though, large parts of Afghanistan were part of the Indian cultural sphere.

yeah, wasn't gandhari from kabul? of course, sevaji might have a different theory and might suggest that she was from colaba.

Kandahar. gAndhAra = Kandahar.

by Another Brick Fri May 06, 2011 1:35 am

ah, right. kandahar.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 1:44 am

Kanishka ruled over Afghanistan.

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 1:49 am

artood2 wrote:Kanishka ruled over Afghanistan.

Yes, and even before the Kushans, the region of Afghanistan through the Punjab was considered one cultural entity by the Greeks who came before them.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 1:51 am

There were some sculptures from that era which were destroyed by Taliban as unislamic.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 1:55 am

as an side: the most prolific translator of buddhist texts from sanskrit to chinese was an iranian prince who forsook his claim to the throne to travel to china and dedicate himself to this task. such was the impact of the silk road (meaning afghanistan) on the mixing of cultures. i forget the prince's name. also, someone told me a few days ago that she had seen a natgeo or bbc or discovery episode on tv that claimed that genetic evidence of the tarim basin mummies now pointed to them being closer to indians (or south asians) than caucasians as thought earlier. i am yet to check the veracity of this statement (might be her imagination).

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 1:57 am

artood2 wrote:There were some sculptures from that era which were destroyed by Taliban as unislamic.

Yeah, it is one of the saddest stories of wanton destruction of heritage. I wonder if it will ever be safe enough in my lifetime to go visit Bamiyan or Swat. (I love historic places with ruins.)

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 1:59 am

I think it is very unlikely. They have been fighting non-stop for so many years. There are many temples/forts in India worth visiting for the architecture only.

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 2:01 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:as an side: the most prolific translator of buddhist texts from sanskrit to chinese was an iranian prince who forsook his claim to the throne to travel to china and dedicate himself to this task. such was the impact of the silk road (meaning afghanistan) on the mixing of cultures. i forget the prince's name. also, someone told me a few days ago that she had seen a natgeo or bbc or discovery episode on tv that claimed that genetic evidence of the tarim basin mummies now pointed to them being closer to indians (or south asians) than caucasians as thought earlier. i am yet to check the veracity of this statement (might be her imagination).

And some of the most vivid extant accounts of Buddhist monasteries in Afghanistan and NWFP come from Hsuan Tsang.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:03 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:as an side: the most prolific translator of buddhist texts from sanskrit to chinese was an iranian prince who forsook his claim to the throne to travel to china and dedicate himself to this task. such was the impact of the silk road (meaning afghanistan) on the mixing of cultures. i forget the prince's name. also, someone told me a few days ago that she had seen a natgeo or bbc or discovery episode on tv that claimed that genetic evidence of the tarim basin mummies now pointed to them being closer to indians (or south asians) than caucasians as thought earlier. i am yet to check the veracity of this statement (might be her imagination).

Iran had historic relations with India. India was the last refuge of Parsis. Human race is potpourri. Despite the generally enforced notion of racial segregation in all parts of ancient world, cross breeding was not uncommon. I frankly do not care about who came from where unless it gives clues to solving medical conditions.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:11 am

[quote="artood2"]

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:Iran had historic relations with India. India was the last refuge of Parsis.

yes, india has been the last refuge for a lot of people including the lost tribes of israel for one. i think india was always perceived as a benign tolerant country -- china, otoh, may have been perceived as inaccessible.

artood2 wrote:Human race is potpourri. Despite the generally enforced notion of racial
segregation in all parts of ancient world, cross breeding was not
uncommon.

true. this anthropologists realized quickly when their racial classificationsa grew from 3 to 30 to a 100 and all sister races, not sub races. that did not stop a hitler from being born, btw.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:12 am

charvaka wrote: And some of the most vivid extant accounts of Buddhist monasteries in Afghanistan and NWFP come from Hsuan Tsang.

not to forget fa hein and i sing. elsewhere, we have accounts of the arabian historians.

by SomeProfile Fri May 06, 2011 2:14 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:also, someone told me a few days ago that she had seen a natgeo or bbc or discovery episode on tv that claimed that genetic evidence of the tarim basin mummies now pointed to them being closer to indians (or south asians) than caucasians as thought earlier. i am yet to check the veracity of this statement (might be her imagination).

And how are you going to check the veracity of her statement?

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:16 am

no visa, no airport molestation and paid vacation if you can write well: I would be doing travelogues for a living too Very Happy

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:16 am

SomeProfile wrote:And how are you going to check the veracity of her statement?

by checking up on wikipedia and reading about the latest genetic studies on the highly controversial tarim basin mummies. perhaps later in the day (now that i am reminded of it).

by SomeProfile Fri May 06, 2011 2:19 am

artood2 wrote:no visa, no airport molestation and paid vacation if you can write well: I would be doing travelogues for a living too

Most of their traveling was on foot or horseback. They could get killed by random humans or beasts.

by SomeProfile Fri May 06, 2011 2:21 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:And how are you going to check the veracity of her statement?

by checking up on wikipedia and reading about the latest genetic studies on the highly controversial tarim basin mummies. perhaps later in the day (now that i am reminded of it).

The way you said it in the earlier post, I thought you were going to go on an Indiana Jones-like expedition yourself. You are a great keyboard warrior!

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 2:22 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:china, otoh, may have been perceived as inaccessible.

China wasn't even in the picture for most westerners until a few hundred years after Christ. For the Macedonian army and its geographers, the world ended near about the "Ganges." It is telling that Homo sapiens got to India so quickly out of Africa (faster than they reached say Central Europe, which is as the crow flies closer from the Suez than India is. India was easy to hit if people got on a boat in the right season in East Africa, Arabia or Persia.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:23 am

SomeProfile wrote:
artood2 wrote:no visa, no airport molestation and paid vacation if you can write well: I would be doing travelogues for a living too
Most of their traveling was on foot or horseback. They could get killed by random humans or beasts.

I was joking.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:24 am

SomeProfile wrote: Most of their traveling was on foot or horseback. They could get killed by random humans or beasts.

yes, it was a high risk venture and many got waylaid. the silk road via the seas was considered safer (despite the risks) and that is why marco polo (and occidental) and a few others took the sea route to china.

The way you said it in the earlier post, I thought you were going to
go on an Indiana Jones-like expedition yourself. You are a great
keyboard warrior!

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:24 am

charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:china, otoh, may have been perceived as inaccessible.
China wasn't even in the picture for most westerners until a few hundred years after Christ. For the Macedonian army and its geographers, the world ended near about the "Ganges." It is telling that Homo sapiens got to India so quickly out of Africa (faster than they reached say Central Europe, which is as the crow flies closer from the Suez than India is. India was easy to hit if people got on a boat in the right season in East Africa, Arabia or Persia.

India was the land of milk and honey in that era, so it was more prominent than China.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:28 am

SomeProfile wrote:Most of their traveling was on foot or horseback. They could get killed by random humans or beasts.

BTW, people would have been killed by some plunderer who showed up just to kill, some bacteria or if the local zamindar happened to like your wife. The average life durartion was smaller and odds of getting killed on travels though higher were probably not a magnitude more.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:28 am

oops, marco polo reached china by the land route but opted for the sea route to return.

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 2:32 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:oops, marco polo reached china by the land route but opted for the sea route to return.

Not the whole way back, though, if I remember right. He took a boat around the coast of India and to Persia. From there it was overland for him.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 2:38 am

charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:oops, marco polo reached china by the land route but opted for the sea route to return.
Not the whole way back, though, if I remember right. He took a boat around the coast of India and to Persia. From there it was overland for him.

yup. clearly his intention was to avoid the notorious areas of afghanistan, uzbekistan and kazakhsthan upon his return.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:42 am

indophile wrote:May be soon they will make it to Family, Music, Movies, Fun, Romance, and anything else out there.

I was discussing it here : https://such.forumotion.com/t168-views-on-views#1130

If we did not have subforums, his threads will get more hits.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:42 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:yup. clearly his intention was to avoid the notorious areas of afghanistan, uzbekistan and kazakhsthan upon his return.

He had enough, he was missing his dog terribly.

by charvaka Fri May 06, 2011 2:48 am

artood2 wrote:
indophile wrote:May be soon they will make it to Family, Music, Movies, Fun, Romance, and anything else out there.

I was discussing it here : https://such.forumotion.com/t168-views-on-views#1130

If we did not have subforums, his threads will get more hits.

This may be the first thread on the Mughals here that breaks into the top-10.

by artood2 Fri May 06, 2011 2:51 am

charvaka wrote:This may be the first thread on the Mughals here that breaks into the top-10.

AFAIR Rashmun was one of the first to ask for his forums. Poor guy would have been crushed that all his hard work gets so little interest.

by Guest Fri May 06, 2011 6:26 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:by checking up on wikipedia and reading about the latest genetic studies on the highly controversial tarim basin mummies. perhaps later in the day (now that i am reminded of it).

yup, my friend was indeed right. in the wikipedia entry on tarim mummies, it *now* shows that a 2007 study concluded that genetic footprints revealed that the people could be from indus valley and/or mesopotamia. i had not read this earlier in the article. earlier all references were to the fact that the mummies were of european stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies#Genetic_links

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