konkanis [veethepeepal or jeremiah mburuburu]

you claimed (hahaha) that all konkani people are brahmins (hahaha). and when i contradicted you, you called me idiot and told me to STFU. your anecdote about a bengali friend of yours and his konkani wife remains half told. but we do hope you will tell the whole story tomorrow to completely repudiate my counter assertions.

anyway, for now, here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkani_people#Culture

yenjoy.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you claimed (hahaha) that all konkani people are brahmins (hahaha).

rather you had said that they are (or think themselves to be) aryans by conflating GSBs with konkani people (hahaha).

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you claimed (hahaha) that all konkani people are brahmins (hahaha). and when i contradicted you, you called me idiot and told me to STFU. your anecdote about a bengali friend of yours and his konkani wife remains half told. but we do hope you will tell the whole story tomorrow to completely repudiate my counter assertions.

anyway, for now, here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkani_people#Culture

yenjoy.

Wikipedia is not very reliable.

If Padre (aka vee or Buruburu) says it has to be true. He knows everything.

No story for you. You lost, boy.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you claimed (hahaha) that all konkani people are brahmins (hahaha).

rather you had said that they are (or think themselves to be) aryans by conflating GSBs with konkani people (hahaha).

konkani people ARE Brahmins ... aryans

may not be koknastha or deshastha but mostly are saraswat or goud saraswat brahmins

Konkani speaking people can come from the konkan, Karwar ,goa even mangalore ..the dialect changes a little each time

chameli wrote:konkani people ARE Brahmins ... aryans

of course. brahmins are aryans (race) -- non brahmins are possibly not. and aryans speak sanskrit by dropping the last vowel sound. and there are several links on the web to support these assertions. links given by huzefa above (or anybody else for that matter) are lies. q.e.d.

Thanks for the wiki link, Hoozay. I had no idea there were so many denominations even amongst the Brahmins.

yes, there are some vaishya, gavli (milkmen) and madvals/dhobi (washermen) denominations too in "konkani people" aside from brahmins.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:yes, there are some vaishya, gavli (milkmen) and dhobi (washermen) denominations too aside from brahmins.

Oh yes. And Muslims and Christians. Even African animist migrants such as Siddhis etc.

I am a little puzzled by this discussion. How can Konkan people be just brahmins as Chameli is suggesting. Konkan Brahmins may be brahmins.
Is not a fact that all kinds of castes live in every geography of India?
Why do you need a proof to prove such obvious facts?

Unless place Konkan can only be used by Brahmins? Is that what you are saying?

truth be told ,

when one talks about konkani people it is mostly about a set of peoeple goud or saraswat brahmins .

surely fisher people living in the konkan can be konkanis too but they are not addressed as that

they will be known as kolis ..from the konkan.

and so on

hufeza/huzefa,

u are relying too much on the damn wikis and googles

and then u are too anal

the term konkani is applied to people who are brahmins ..mostly goud saraswats.

a shudra even a vaishya living in the konkan is not referred to as being konkani

even though all may speak the language KONKANI

chameli wrote:hufeza/huzefa,

u are relying too much on the damn wikis and googles

and then u are too anal

the term konkani is applied to people who are brahmins ..mostly goud saraswats.

a shudra even a vaishya living in the konkan is not referred to as being konkani

even though all may speak the language KONKANI

fine. i will play your game. you seem to have a set of "life experiences" about this matter, which embolden you to drop pronouncements with resounding authority. in an earlier argument, it was an internet link you were relying on but not this time. well, tell me your vantage point. are you konkani people (konkane)? lived there? have close friends? what is your degree of familiarity with them? you don't have to answer all these questions but maybe a few more that will help me understand. i will not cite links in reply. i will also argue back from my "life experiences" (i once did meet a konkano who may or may not have been married to a bengali...stay tuned). if your reply is sound, i will change my opinions (and you will score a victory -- look at that bright side).

by the bye, i'm of that generation that knows how to put "life experiences" and myths through the internet-sieve to arrive at truths or full confusion (both are acceptable). i do not know if you are of an even older generation (perhaps like your client vee who cannot type 'cos in his time, secretaries used to type for the burra sahibs -- he employs a butterfinger for the job now). so you have to tell me your age too -- i must be sensitive to to the handicaps of senior citizens. don't talk my last sentence too personally; i was merely jocking (hohoho). let's return to the argument at hand. namely konkani (people) = brahmins = aryans.

There is South Kanara Konkini, North Kanara and Karwar Konkini, Goan Konkini, and there is a small pocket in Cochin too. There are differences in Konkini depending on the region one comes from. And then there are differences in Hindu Konkini, Christan Konkini and the Muslim variety from Goa (who are mostly Aga Khan followers). When I was at Surathkal I had friend named Shanbogue from Karwar and another friend named Kamath from Mangalore. They used to speak in Kannada with each other (they found it easier to talk in Kannada than Konkini, the language they spoke at home:-)

hey indo ,

shanbogue ? sounds from portugese or even french settlers in india

otherwise popularly spelt as shanbag

kamath with a h at the end is goan or mangalori

kamat without h is maharashtrian

yes there are christian and muslim konkanis but the Hindu konkanis are brahmins

huzefa/hufeza,

stick to the subject please .

whats a "konkano"???? bengali intonations ?

they' re referred to as konkanis

I still thought he spelt it Shanbogue. Vittal Shanbogue. We had our share of Shenoys, Pais, Kamaths, Shanbogue (or Shanbag), Hoskotes, D'Souzas D'Costas, D'Silvas, etc. During my time at Surathakal I could easily pick up Kannada, gained somewhat of a working knowledge of Tulu, but Konkini was tough with all its different nasal stresses and variations. and variations in the language itself spoken by different communities even in the same region.
The famous parliamentarian H.V. Kamath - was he a Mangalorean? He always ran from somewhere in Madhya Pradesh, I thought.

chameli wrote:huzefa/hufeza,

whats a "konkano"???? bengali intonations ?

i had read yesterday that in konkani, the masculine form of addressing a fellow konkani was konkano. i may be wrong.

... but the Hindu konkanis are brahmins

you have not answered a single question of mine and are simply parroting what you think is right.

i want to learn. i know little about konkanis. you seem to know a lot. give me proof from your "life experiences" (incidents/anecdotes/hearsay) as to why you think hindu konkanis are exclusively brahmins and why brahmins are exclusively aryans. go....your time starts now!

Only Brahmin Konkans?
*************************
The main Communities Today

As pointed out by Jerome A Saldanha in a 1938 reprint of "Indian Castes, - Vol. 1, Konkani or Goan castes" published in 1904, the most important of the Konkani speaking communities are:

1)The Konkaani Shenvi,or Saraswat/Gaud Saraswat Brahmins
(2)Non-brahmins such as Sonars, Bhandaris etc
3)Mohammedan navayts and
4)Catholic Christians of Goa, Kanara and Ratnagiri.

1. The Shenvi or Saraswat Brahmins

The Saraswat/Gaud Saraswat Brahmins form the subject of an interesting episode in the Mahabharata: In the Gada Parva, it is stated that on the banks of Saraswati there lived Rishi Dadichi's son, Saraswat. While a severe famine raged in Bharat Varsha for 12 years, Saraswat weathered the famine by feeding on the fish of the river Saraswati till it dried up. His example was followed by the 60,000 i.e. Shatsahasra Brahmins who were his disciples. This could well be the reason why the Saraswats/Gaud Saraswats are among the few Brahmins who traditionally have no taboo against eating fish as a part of their otherwise vegetarian diet.

How and when the Saraswat Brahmins who had earlier migrated to Trihotra happened to move to the tract in western India which came to be known as Konkan may be deduced from what appears in the Skanda Purana, Mangesh Mahatmya, Konkanakhyana and other chronicles. Parashurama is stated to have brought sixty six or Shahashast families of Brahmins from Trihotra with their family deities and granted them the most fertile and beautiful part of the land he reclaimed from the Sea. These families spread themselves over the districts of Bardesh, Pedne, Kudalmahal and other parts of Gomantaka or Goa and the South Konkan. They came to be known by the names of the villages like Kushasthali and the names of their districts like Bardesh; Shenvis being those who settled In 96 or Shahannav villages.

As observed by V.N. Kudva in the 'History of the Dakshinatya Sarawats', the first inroad Into the territory, the life and traditions of the Brahmins settled in Goa took place in 1351 AD when Hasan Gangu Jaffar Khan who founded the Bahmani Kingdom invaded Goa. On his death in 1357, his son and successor, the cruel Ghazni Mohammad, persecuted the Brahmins, destroyed their Temples and caused havoc in Goa. Though the Muslims were driven out of Goa in 1366 when it became at part of the Vijayanagar Empire in 1469, Goa was reconquered by Mohammad Gawan for the Bahmani Kingdom.

Cruelties against the inhabitants of Goa mounted during its administration by a Turkish favourite of Yusuf Adil Shah, the King of Bijapur. This is what led Mhala Pai, the Sardesai of Verne, to seek the intervention of the Portuguese: a move from frying pan to the fire.

On the 26th February 1510, Goa and the province of Salsett including Marmugoa and Bardesh, fell to the combined armies of thePortuguese Commander Alphonso de Albuquerque and Thimmayya Nayak, with the surrender of the Muslim intruders. Goa, no doubt gained in importance and became the capital of the Portuguese empire in the East but the Portuguese rulers let loose their extreme fanaticism and started a reign of persecution against the Hindus of Goa. This forced a large number of Saraswat families to migrate from Goa into malvan, Vengurla, Ratnagiri and other districts of Maharashtra and into the Kanaras and even into Kerala. A number of Brahmins also set sail by ships to land in Cochin in the far south. In fact even some of the families who had been converted to the Catholic faith left Goa to settle down with their Hindu kinsmen In Kanara as the Portuguese Viceroy, Don Francisco de Tavora, had passed a law forbidding Christians of Goa from continuing to observe traditional customs and practices to whicht they were habituated while they were in the Hindu fold.

2.Konkani Non Brahmin Hindus

Konkani non brahmin Hindus who formed professional castes left Goa, some time after it was taken by the Muslims and others after it came into the suzerainty of the Portuguese. They includes Kalavantis (Dancing girt families), Sonars (goldsmiths), Konkani Vanis (traders), Sheragers (messengers), Sutars (Carpenters), Konkani Kunbis, Bhandaris (Palm-tappers or liquor distillers), Konkani Kharves/Kolis (fishermen) or Mahars, Hulsavars or Palits who are laborers by profession.

3.Konkani Christians of Goa, Kanara, Malabar & Coorg

Konkani Christians of Goa and Kanara had grown into prosperous communities under the patronage of the Bednore Kings and Hyder Ali. Soon after the treaty of Mangalore in 1784, however, Tipu Sultan issued orders to all stations in Kerala to seize the Christians, confiscate their estates and deport them to Seringapatnam. Not more than 15,000 of the exiled Konkani Christians survived their exile of 15 years when in 1799 Seringapatnam fell. At the behest of General Wellesley, about 1000 of them were sent to Malabar, a few hundreds settled in Coorg, while over 10,000 returned to Kanara. It is the descendents of these survivors that constitute the present lot of Konkani Catholics in Kaanara, Malabar and Coorg.

According to Jerome A. Saldanha, the Konkani Christians are divided into castes. Bahmons (Brahmins), Chaddos, Sudirs, Madivals, Gavdis, Renders. Kumbars and other classes corresponding to the Hindu castes from which they had been converted. Inter-marriages between these castes are not forbidden, but take place, if at all, rarely. They are Christians by religion, but Hindus by race and customs. This happy blend of Hindu race and customs, Christian religion and European civilization is a delightful combination that can be noticed even to this day.

4.The Konkani Muslims or Navayts

The Navayts are believed to be the descendants of the Muslims who are said to have fled from Goa in the eighth century AD to escape the persecution by the authoritarian Governor, Hajee Bin Yusuf. They use a number of Persian or Arabic words in their Konkani. Their stronghold is Bhatkal.

thank you very much for the link marathadi-saamiyaar. i was not getting any non-wikipedia links but your link is pretty exhaustive and it settles the case. it may be true that brahmins comprise the largest denomination among konkani people but by no means are they the only representatives of it.

hufeza ,

I FeEL likE IM IN 4TH GRaDE ALL OVER AGAIN ..CONVERSING WITH yOU HE HE

I THINK YOU'D BEST GET UR InFormation froM OTHeR SOUrcES