Is Hindi the common language of south indian students in IIT Madras?

by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:26 pm

WHILE TEACHING
at the Indian Institute of Technology Madras in 2009-2010, I noticed
that the majority of my students were Telugu speakers, with Tamil and
Malayalam coming in second and third. Yet when I asked them what the
most common language spoken in the hostels was (with its mix of students
from mostly the South but also the

North, East and West), they routinely said, “Hindi”.

This went against
some of my assumptions about “the South”. While it was true that many
students spoke English well if they weren’t speaking their mother tongue
with their peers, it was still more natural for them to speak in Hindi
rather than English. This cultural comfort with Hindi didn’t mean that
their English wasn’t good enough, but it did reveal that English had a
particular place in their lives. I also knew from having read their exam
essays that their English-language comprehension and ability for
written expression ranged wildly. They had come from different kinds of
English-medium backgrounds and that, in combination with their family
circumstances and their singular focus on scoring high on the
math-oriented IIT entrance exam, led to very different abilities and
levels of confidence in the English language. In informal discussions,
some of my students said that part of the problem was that English was
taught as a “subject” to them, but never as a “language”. This
distinction supports the claim many education scholars make that while
English-language instruction across India has increased, its quality has
deteriorated. This bore out in different ways for different students,
depending on where in the country they had grown up, what kind of school
they had gone to, and which languages were spoken at home. As one
student explained, English was associated with “all important things”
and “all important people”. Another said, English is “a presence in your
life from the beginning” in the form of “birth certificates and medical
reports”.

Yet,
English becomes a language
of intimacy for very few, even among the pool of English-educated
students who make it into the IIT system. One student whose mother
tongue was Malayalam wrote poignantly in an assignment about his own
linguistic background: “It was pretentious to be going on talking with
my grandparents or parents in English. Besides, for a family like mine,
English creates a kind of invisible barrier between relations. The love
that rings in one word cannot be replaced by a whole paragraph in
English.” Another wrote how English was “a common enemy for all of
us”—with reference to his and his friends’ struggle with the language
and the attendant pressure to perform in it. He concluded, “I learned
that I have absolutely no command over English.” This desire for
facility and joy in the language was common to many, and it was also
sometimes painfully clear that some students had gained this facility,
while others “had” English but had to struggle with their partial
knowledge of it on a daily basis.

MONEY SHARMA / THE INDIA TODAY GROUP / GETTY IMAGES

Hindi is the mother tongue of the vast majority of students
at IIT Delhi but is expressly avoided in the classroom. It is the
language
heard in hallways, canteens and hostels, and in lecture
halls, just before the start of class.

Teaching at IIT Delhi the
following year, I discovered that the relationship of Hindi to English
was a bit different. Hindi was much more prevalent but also to be
expressly avoided in the classroom; it was not the language of
performance. It was the mother tongue of the vast majority of students,
and the language heard in hallways, canteens and hostels, and in lecture
halls, just before the start of class. It was also the language that
some students spoke to me in after class, if they had missed many
lectures or turned in assignments late. Their heads would drop a little
and their faces turn soft; they looked to me for sympathy and out came
Hindi, often in a low, muffled voice. It was used to explain the real
story, the backstory of their problems. When I told students who I knew
were more comfortable in Hindi that they were welcome to make comments
or ask questions in class in the language, they nodded but never did so.
I soon realised that in the competitive atmosphere of the IITs, to do
so would be to mark oneself in the classroom, even if everyone broke
into Hindi the minute class was over. What I tried to impress upon my
students was that they needed both English and Hindi to get ahead, and
that to do so meant being truly bilingual, being able to speak, read and
write well in both languages. Unlike people from monolingual societies,
I told them, they were at a great advantage. But this—real
bilingualism, let alone multilingualism—was something they were not
given the time to practice or excel at in the space of their education,
either before or during IIT. My own words seemed empty in the face of
all they had to “mug up” to pass their exams.

What
I saw at the IITs was the
now age-old distinction between ‘vernacs’ and the English-educated
elite, but also much more than that. And what was remarkable—whether in
Chennai or Delhi—was to see the gradations of English knowledge. There
are not simply two groups or kinds of students but, in my estimation, at
least five or six. The ladder to success has many rungs.

As
for Hinglish—the ‘natural’ or
enforced peppering of Hindi with English—it can be read in at least two
ways: Yes, as a way for the English-educated urbanite to bridge her
worlds and create various forms of linguistic distinction with every
Caesar salad ordered. But also, perhaps, as a kind of protest by the
aspiring, for whom with every mobile recharge and Metro ride, English
vocabulary is their right and provenance even as they are told they
can’t speak it. Haan, they can.

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story.aspx?StoryID=1353&Page=2

by Nila Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:58 pm

In B'lore colleges they speak only hindi. Gasp!!!!

by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Max, please share your thoughts. Thanks.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:20 pm

This article talks of the language and food in Hindian instititutes of technologies.

http://www.tamiltribune.com/08/0201.html

by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:51 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:This article talks of the language and food in Hindian instititutes of technologies.

http://www.tamiltribune.com/08/0201.html

Why are you not commenting on the fact that Hindi is the common language of South Indian students in IIT Madras?

by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:59 pm

There is a bunch of writers who go around saying TN has accepted Hindi.

The fanatic PM Vajpayee even lied that Annadurai did not oppose Hindi as officiual language.

http://www.tamiltribune.com//hindi/index.html#cat13

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:00 pm

Rashmun wrote:Max, please share your thoughts. Thanks.

i have no idea what happens on campus these days. i did not attend the IIT at madras, but about the same time i was at IIT-B my cousin was at IIT-M and i used to visit her from time to time. from what i recall, i don't remember hearing much hindi on campus. it was mostly southern indian english with very chennai-based jargon thrown in that one heard.

by Kris Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:56 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:This article talks of the language and food in Hindian instititutes of technologies.

http://www.tamiltribune.com/08/0201.html

if you come to our region to study
at central government institutes you should watch Hindi movies

>>>The mystery of the high incidence of suicides has just been solved.

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 am

I don't know about IIT Chennai and Hindi conversing juntas. It is possible that those study there may not be Tamil Nadu and could be diverse. Any multi culture environment in India adapts Hindi as it's language and that's the fact!!!
Btw...I have learned that speaking in Tamil is not considered dignified. I was at this restaurant the other day waiting for the to-go. The management their changed from Telugu to Tamil. This Tamil uncle look like was telling me to wait and was addressing me as "beti beti..thoda chai pelo" and "Intha Ponnukku koncham tea..."
Instead keeping mum I told him I can understand Tamil...Athella IrukkatTum...Neenga Seekaram order ready seiyyunga...time aachu...that's it and..."No Beti Veti and no apologies and took their own time for the order"
No wonder...the restaurant is temply closed.

Note to self: Inimaey I have decided not to talk in Tamil in public.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 am

sasthi: reading your posts, it's clear you have decided not to talk english also.

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:21 am

Max I know that you are tamil and you talk no sense most of the time.

If anyone don't understand my English pls stay away from reading. It is as simple as that.
Tamils don't understand anything except that carry big superiority and fake pride in their undignified language. I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.

by Guest Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:24 am

Sasthi wrote:Max I know that you are tamil and you talk no sense most of the time.

If anyone don't understand my English pls stay away from reading. It is as simple as that.
Tamils don't understand anything except that carry big superiority and fake pride in their undignified language. I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.

Sasthi, as i understand your home town is Bangalore. Would you agree that the common man in Bangalore like autowallahs and taxi drivers, vegetable and fruit vendors, security guards, servants, small shopkeepers, barbers, small restaurant owners and waiters typically know the hindi/hindustani language?

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:32 am

Most of the common B'lore ppl converse fluently in Hindi. For the matter of fact...Hindi is a very local language.

by Guest Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:34 am

Sasthi wrote:Most of the common B'lore ppl converse fluently in Hindi. For the matter of fact...Hindi is a very local language.

That was also my experience in Bangalore. Thanks.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:35 am

Sasthi wrote:I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.

sasthi, you may be right. i think that telugus and kannadigas also feel highly honoured to converse in hindi.

by Guest Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:40 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Sasthi wrote:I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.
sasthi, you may be right. i think that telugus and kannadigas also feel highly honoured to converse in hindi.

Luke, please share your views on the following. Thanks.

-------
Khariboli is simple or spoken Hindi, as contrasted to literary Hindi which is used by many writers and public speakers***.

Khariboli is an urban language. It is the first
language of the common man in the cities of what is known as the Hindi
speaking belt (Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Delhi,
Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, etc.) and is the second language in the
cities of many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt, not only in India
but also in Pakistan.****
[***For instance, in Khariboli (or Hindustani) we say “udhar dekhiye”, while in Hindi we say “udhar avlokan keejiye”.

****I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a
taxi from Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I
had to attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking
person while the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me
was a Kannada speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in
Hindi. I was surprised, since both these persons were South Indians,
and I asked them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that
was because Hindi was the link language for them both. ]

How did Khariboli come into existence?
Almost all cities in the world originated as market places
(mandis). This was only possible when the productive forces had
developed to an extent that people were producing more than they could
themselves consume, and hence the surplus had to be sold or exchanged.
In other words, commodities (i.e. goods for sale or exchange, and
not for self consumption) began to be produced.
Since the seller and the purchaser had to have a known place
where the transaction of sale and purchase could take place, market
places (mandis) were created, which later became cities.
Now the seller and purchaser must have a common
language, otherwise the transaction of sale would not be possible.
Hence Khariboli arose as that common language of the market.

To give an illustration, in Allahabad (where I have mostly
lived) Khariboli is spoken in the city, but in the rural areas around
Allahabad city the dialect spoken is Avadhi (in which Tulsidas wrote
his Ramcharitmanas). In Mathura city Khariboli is spoken, but in the
rural areas around Mathura Brijbhasha (the language of Surdas) is
spoken. In Benaras city or the other eastern cities of U.P. Khariboli
is spoken, but in the rural areas around these cities Bhojpuri is
spoken. In parts of northern Bihar Maithili is the rural dialect (in
which the great poet Vidyapati wrote) but in the cities there also
Khariboli is spoken. In Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh Khariboli is
spoken in the cities, but in the rural areas local dialects (e.g. Mewari
amd Marwari in Rajasthan) are spoken which an outsider cannot
understand.

This shows that in vast areas of north India the rural population speaks different dialects, but the urban population had a common language, Khariboli. How did this happen?

This happened because a vast common market had been
created in India (due to the development of the productive forces)
even before the coming of the Mughals. A
trader traveling from Bihar or Madhya Pradesh could easily sell his
goods in a city in Uttar Pradesh or Rajasthan or Punjab because there
was a common language, Khariboli, which both seller and purchaser knew
(apart from knowing their local dialects). Thus Khariboli is the common
language of the cities in large parts of India. Even in many parts
of the non-Hindi speaking belt Khariboli is understood and spoken as a
second language. Thus, if one goes to Kolkata or Bangalore or Gujarat
or Lahore or Karachi or even in many parts of south India he can
converse in Khariboli with people living in the cities (though there
might be difficulty in rural areas).

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:53 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Sasthi wrote:I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.
sasthi, you may be right. i think that telugus and kannadigas also feel highly honoured to converse in hindi.

It's not about honor- but, I don’t know what it is~! I was thinking that Bangaloreans of tam origin don't speak in their Lang in public due to the fear of political abuse that causes them in case of riot. It's unfortunate to know that's not the only reason. Everyone from Bangalore is exposed to different languages. A Bengalorean can speak Kannada/Hindi/Urdu/Tamil fluently (These days you can also add Gujarati to the list). But you can always distinguish a Tamilan from others though they are Bangalore born by only one simple test. Bangalore-Tams can’t write Kannada/Hindi.

P.S: My English is bad coz I did most of my schooling in TN and a year of PG in TN. It is the entire "Tamil Speaking" English teacher's fault. Except for few schools in TN and Coimbatore the rest of the ppl were not taught any better English/Tamil or anything. Now that I realized the root of the problem; I can correct it. But still my heart goes to those students of TN and their crappy teachers – which I cannot fix it. LOL

by Guest Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:09 pm

Sasthi wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Sasthi wrote:I have seen Managers from IIT who grad from Chennai and they feel highly honored conversing in Hindi.
sasthi, you may be right. i think that telugus and kannadigas also feel highly honoured to converse in hindi.

It's not about honor- but, I don’t know what it is~! I was thinking that Bangaloreans of tam origin don't speak in their Lang in public due to the fear of political abuse that causes them in case of riot. It's unfortunate to know that's not the only reason. Everyone from Bangalore is exposed to different languages. A Bengalorean can speak Kannada/Hindi/Urdu/Tamil fluently (These days you can also add Gujarati to the list). But you can always distinguish a Tamilan from others though they are Bangalore born by only one simple test. Bangalore-Tams can’t write Kannada/Hindi.

P.S: My English is bad coz I did most of my schooling in TN and a year of PG in TN. It is the entire "Tamil Speaking" English teacher's fault. Except for few schools in TN and Coimbatore the rest of the ppl were not taught any better English/Tamil or anything. Now that I realized the root of the problem; I can correct it. But still my heart goes to those students of TN and their crappy teachers – which I cannot fix it. LOL

you just broke Max's heart.

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:22 pm

Still I feel bad for those students who graduate from TN colleges and are not comfortable with any skills. We have serious issue here! Really!!

There are kids who take spoken English classes after their PG and isn't horrible.

Well, I assume Max's heart is not fragile to be broken...it is Tamilan's heart and shall be made of ahem...

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:44 pm

an entertaining masters thesis.

by Nila Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:49 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an entertaining masters thesis.

Ayyo...so the thesis is wrong?

Note to self: Damn! Some ppl think that they originate from "C V Raman" Parambarai. Raman effect!!

by charvaka Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:19 pm

Sasthi wrote:My English is bad

And you think speaking in Tamil is not dignified and you don't want to speak it in public. You've got issues.

by Guest Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:28 pm

charvaka wrote:
Sasthi wrote:My English is bad
And you think speaking in Tamil is not dignified and you don't want to speak it in public. You've got issues.

Physician, Heal Thyself.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:40 pm

Sasthi wrote:

Ayyo...so the thesis is wrong?

no merely entertaining.

by charvaka Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an entertaining masters thesis.

Hilarious. Thanks for posting.

PS: Slangini for national language!

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:10 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Sasthi wrote:My English is bad
And you think speaking in Tamil is not dignified and you don't want to speak it in public. You've got issues.

Physician, Heal Thyself.

Actually BOTH of you are wrong.... and you need to heal Thyselves.

P.S. I also blame Naardhies-settled-inTN English teachers for my inglising skills.

by Nila Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:33 pm

charvaka wrote:
Sasthi wrote:My English is bad
And you think speaking in Tamil is not dignified and you don't want to speak it in public. You've got issues.

Since my mother tongue is not Tamil I deserve the choice of speaking any other language that gives me a sense of comfort and honor. I set a warning to change my personal opinions and I had a few instances where Tamil is not honored as a spoken language and I would prefer not to talk Tamil in public. My issue or your issue…it’s doesn’t matter to me. Thanks.

Besides, I teach Tamil to my DD coz she is interested to learn. My DS can’t pronounce properly, but he is good learning Kannada. I also volunteer in teaching Kannada/Tamil to US kids. That's about it.

by Guest Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:36 pm

Sasthi wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Sasthi wrote:My English is bad
And you think speaking in Tamil is not dignified and you don't want to speak it in public. You've got issues.

Since my mother tongue is not Tamil I deserve the choice of speaking any other language that gives me a sense of comfort and honor. I set a warning to change my personal opinions and I had a few instances where Tamil is not honored as a spoken language and I would prefer not to talk Tamil in public. My issue or your issue…it’s doesn’t matter to me. Thanks.

Besides, I teach Tamil to my DD coz she is interested to learn. My DS can’t pronounce properly, but he is good learning Kannada. I also volunteer in teaching Kannada/Tamil to US kids. That's about it.

Don't worry Charvaka has got many issues of his own. Like his idiotic denial of the fact that Hyderabadi is a variant of Hindustani.

by charvaka Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:47 pm

Sasthi wrote:my mother tongue is not Tamil

Got it.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:36 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an entertaining masters thesis.

that was more than entertaining; some of richter's writing - in sections 2.2 and 2.3, i think, at about page 12 - about indian english and what motivates the use of so much special lingo at iit-m is interesting. it's for similar reasons that uppili deliberately introduces some errors into his posts: so that his real errors, about which he is unaware, and are sometimes egregious, would also be taken to be intentional ones.

one of my fav words, unique to iit-m, i think, is "cupping" for messing up on a test or a course, which originates in the "U" grade, which probably stands for "unsatisfactory" (could it be "uff?") "RG-er" and "fufa" are rather good too. best of all is the use of "non-male" for "female," implying the ugliness of iit-m females. in the old days, all the women were in the m.sc. (science) programs, most of them in the chemistry department. and they were indeed non-males.

richter speculates about the provenance of "poNDy." i first heard it in my time at the institute from a class-mate with "singh" for his middle name, so i had always thought that it was a punjabi term for porn. those books were printed on rough paper, and the printing ink sometimes ran.

i also found the composition of the student body interesting; over 50% are telugus, and 30%, northern indians! it's possible that telugus now form over 50% of the entire iit population. in my class, 30% were southern indian, and 70%, northern indian. richter confirms what i've said before: the iits are regional institutes now.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:55 pm

and with 50% telugus and 30% northindians (i assume all of whom speak hindi as the first or second language), it wouldn't be a surprise at all that hindi would the lingua fraca of contemporary IIT-M. but it wasn't like that in my time from what i remember visiting my cousin at the institute ca. the early nineties.

"non-males", "pondy", and "RG" (we used to call it RG-giri at IIT-B, i.e. the act of doing RG) were commonly used terms in IIT-B as well. there were a few very intelligent and comely women on the campus at IIT-B in the nineties. not all were "non-males". of course their relative sparseness in the population made them somewhat neurotic, but i wouldn't hold it against them. the general atmosphere wasn't very friendly to them. they were interesting women nevertheless. don't know if things have changed much nowadays.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:59 pm

some other IIT-B slang terms that i remember are:

nabad or nbd (short for nervous breakdown); a person in a state of nbd was a nabdoo.

crackoo - an academically high performing student

huggoo - opposite of crackoo

richter already mentioned "pseud", but IIT-B had a variation on it, the "tatti-pseud", i.e. a very transparent pseud who only aspired to pseudness.

by doofus_maximus Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:11 pm

In Pilani, when I was studying the student body was made up of roughly 50% Tamils, 40% Telugus and rest from all the states put together. No one spoke in Hindi. It was either their own regional language or English.

Slangs from Tamil/Telugu were popular.

For eg: Rod Yetharathu means exactly that. When a student does miserably in a test, he ~~or she~~ will come back and say 'Rod yethitaangappa' meaning 'I bend over and they rammed a rod up my anus'.

Pondy for porn was quite famous too. All the cuss words from Telugu/Tamil were popular among all.

Tamil were Illads and Telugus were Gultis, but I think that was universal.

Quality of the girls was very good in Pilani. But still when it came to cultural festival time, girls from other colleges from cities like Delhi, BBay and Blore were a sight to behold and every Bitsian guy would go apeshit crazy during the culfest days.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:19 pm

illads?

by doofus_maximus Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:illads?

'illai da' which is a commonly used phrase by Tamils when talking amongst each other, was changed to 'illads'.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and with 50% telugus and 30% northindians (i assume all of whom speak hindi as the first or second language), it wouldn't be a surprise at all that hindi would the lingua fraca of contemporary IIT-M. but it wasn't like that in my time from what i remember visiting my cousin at the institute ca. the early nineties.

"non-males", "pondy", and "RG" (we used to call it RG-giri at IIT-B, i.e. the act of doing RG) were commonly used terms in IIT-B as well. there were a few very intelligent and comely women on the campus at IIT-B in the nineties. not all were "non-males". of course their relative sparseness in the population made them somewhat neurotic, but i wouldn't hold it against them. the general atmosphere wasn't very friendly to them. they were interesting women nevertheless. don't know if things have changed much nowadays.

contrary to popular belief, i do not hold that the percent of the good-looking among the intelligent is less than that among the entire population; i suspect that the attributes "good-looking" and "intelligent" are uncorrelated with, and independent of each other, i.e., P(G|I) = P(G). it's just that both probabilities are dismally and equally low.

by charvaka Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:15 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:In Pilani, when I was studying the student body was made up of roughly 50% Tamils, 40% Telugus and rest from all the states put together. No one spoke in Hindi. It was either their own regional language or English.

Slangs from Tamil/Telugu were popular.

For eg: Rod Yetharathu means exactly that. When a student does miserably in a test, he ~~or she~~ will come back and say 'Rod yethitaangappa' meaning 'I bend over and they rammed a rod up my anus'.

Pondy for porn was quite famous too. All the cuss words from Telugu/Tamil were popular among all.

Tamil were Illads and Telugus were Gultis, but I think that was universal.

Quality of the girls was very good in Pilani. But still when it came to cultural festival time, girls from other colleges from cities like Delhi, BBay and Blore were a sight to behold and every Bitsian guy would go apeshit crazy during the culfest days.

At Kharagpur the student body was Bengali, Bihari and Telugu about 30% each and the rest of India the remaining 10-15%. The language was Hindi-based but with lots of slang from English, Bangla and Telugu. Native Hindi speakers would have a hard time understanding this language.

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Re: Is Hindi the common language of south indian students in IIT Madras?

Re: Is Hindi the common language of south indian students in IIT Madras?

Re: Is Hindi the common language of south indian students in IIT Madras?

Re: Is Hindi the common language of south indian students in IIT Madras?