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MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 5:04 am
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiotic.
do you find peter sellers' blackface depiction, not that there is anything wrong with it, of an indian as a simple-hearted, buffoon in the party idiotic too?
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 9:00 am
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiotic.
been a while sine I saw it, but the movie (Padoson) was really funny. one of the biggest hits of all times. watch it if you can. and mehmood's character was more loved than mocked.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 1:12 pm
Tracy Whitney wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiotic.
been a while sine I saw it, but the movie (Padoson) was really funny. one of the biggest hits of all times. watch it if you can. and mehmood's character was more loved than mocked.
Just because it was "loved" then doesnt make it funny. Thi one specific charcterization set back and did more damage SIs depiction than anything else. Even now. Hindi TV still has this stereotype alive and getting gratuitous laugh on TV shows...less but sill around.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 1:20 pm
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiotic.
do you find peter sellers' blackface depiction, not that there is anything wrong with it, of an indian as a simple-hearted, buffoon in the party idiotic too?
i don't know i haven't seen the movie but since you have, let me ask you the following q: does the movie make fun of the indianness of the character or his general bungling ways, similar to inspector jacques closeau in the pink panther movies also played by the same actor?
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 1:22 pm
Tracy Whitney wrote:
been a while sine I saw it, but the movie (Padoson) was really funny. one of the biggest hits of all times. watch it if you can. and mehmood's character was more loved than mocked.
yeah i've heard that thing repeated on many other boards and the person who says it is almost always a northindian.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 1:23 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Tracy Whitney wrote:
been a while sine I saw it, but the movie (Padoson) was really funny. one of the biggest hits of all times. watch it if you can. and mehmood's character was more loved than mocked.
yeah i've heard that thing repeated on many other boards and the person who says it is almost always a northindian.
max do you find the depiction of a south indian in this song offensive?
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 1:25 pm
Rashmun wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Tracy Whitney wrote:
been a while sine I saw it, but the movie (Padoson) was really funny. one of the biggest hits of all times. watch it if you can. and mehmood's character was more loved than mocked.
yeah i've heard that thing repeated on many other boards and the person who says it is almost always a northindian.
max do you find the depiction of a south indian in this song offensive?
on another note, should short statured men find this song offensive?
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 1:29 pm
i never said i am offended. i said i find it idiotic and i probably will find your song idiotic too if it's anything like padosan, a movie i had the misfortune of wasting a couple of hours on, a long time ago. sorry won't be watching it. so little time, so much idiocy.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 1:47 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Huzefa Kapasi wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiotic.
do you find peter sellers' blackface depiction, not that there is anything wrong with it, of an indian as a simple-hearted, buffoon in the party idiotic too?
i don't know i haven't seen the movie but since you have, let me ask you the following q: does the movie make fun of the indianness of the character or his general bungling ways, similar to inspector jacques closeau in the pink panther movies also played by the same actor?
it makes fun of the indianness of the character. that includes blackface, gratuitous namaste, gratuitous gyaan and an indian accent. the bungling ways are hard to distinguish from the stereotyped portrayal if you are an indian.
why don't you watch the movie? the party
Last edited by Huzefa Kapasi on Sat May 12, 2012 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 1:51 pm
h_k, i'll have to watch the movie to decide for myself. it's the absurd reductive representation of southern indians by the padosan character and his clones that is idiotic.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 2:01 pm
i fully understand that. i am in no firm conclusion about the stereotypes this movie (as tw says was a hit -- and it was) propagated, but, to be honest, i enjoyed it. maybe it's 'cos i deeply adore versatile mehmood.
while you are at it, you might find nayee padosan (2003 release) worth watching. it is not a remake of padosan but it pays homage to padosan in it's title. i enjoyed it. nayee padosan is a bit like chetan bhagat's 2 states.
while you are at it, you might find nayee padosan (2003 release) worth watching. it is not a remake of padosan but it pays homage to padosan in it's title. i enjoyed it. nayee padosan is a bit like chetan bhagat's 2 states.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by truthbetold Sat May 12, 2012 4:57 pm
I saw padosan. It was a funny movie. One needs to relax and laugh at one self. There are multiple potrayals of marwadis that were more offensive in hindi movies. Hyderabadi urdu was trashed in many bollywood movies. Ex amitabh's kasauti. Just relax. World is more enjoyable that way.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 5:37 pm
truthbetold wrote:Just relax. World is more enjoyable that way.
yeah you do that.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by truthbetold Sat May 12, 2012 6:35 pm
Once again. Just relax. That movie was made 40 plus years. It is fondly remembered for.mrhmood's caricature of north indisn/muslim view of tamil brahmin. It is not honest but it fit the then prevailing view but it was.done.in a humorous way. A SNL type of oversized but funny characterization. It is one of the better efforts of bollywood.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 7:08 pm
They simply brought together a bunch of comedians in one single movie. It's nothing but about a bunch of bafoons in a love competition. To make it funnier, they come from different parts of the country. Kishore Kumar played a struggling bong artist. Sunil Dutt a panjabi. Pretty much all were stereotyped and laughed at in some ways. Mehmood's character was the strongest of course.
Coming to the song, it's a competition. Can clearly see that mehmoodis more talented, hence the bafoon team is doing all kind of acts to win it. The poor guy keeps pointing out the mistakes in kk's sur/notes, but is out sung in the end. That's all there is to it, really.
And as tbt pointed out, such characterisations happen lot of time. Other common ones are goans, marwaris, Sindhis, hyderabadis, bongs, marathis, even panjabi/jats. Lesser now, as you can see even in reality, people are not that different in terms of dressing up and life styles as they used to be.
The only group that gets most represented (even made fun of) since last decade is the gujjus, mostly coz of nri gujju population. But going by the laughs in the theatres here, I think they love it.
Coming to the song, it's a competition. Can clearly see that mehmoodis more talented, hence the bafoon team is doing all kind of acts to win it. The poor guy keeps pointing out the mistakes in kk's sur/notes, but is out sung in the end. That's all there is to it, really.
And as tbt pointed out, such characterisations happen lot of time. Other common ones are goans, marwaris, Sindhis, hyderabadis, bongs, marathis, even panjabi/jats. Lesser now, as you can see even in reality, people are not that different in terms of dressing up and life styles as they used to be.
The only group that gets most represented (even made fun of) since last decade is the gujjus, mostly coz of nri gujju population. But going by the laughs in the theatres here, I think they love it.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sat May 12, 2012 7:54 pm
truthbetold wrote:Once again. Just relax.
are you saying perchance that i am unable to laugh at myself or my own tribe? you are mistaken. there is a certain nuanced, artistic way of doing ethnic stereotypes which does not essentialize and present the subject in absurd reductive ways. it is hard to do and indian cinema does not know how to do it. the portrayal in padosan is a crude one.
if you want to know how a stereotype can be portrayed with humor without resorting to reductive techniques, watch the characters of kameshwaran and his clan in michael madana kamarajan. it is very nuanced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7ut9BarXMg
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 8:48 pm
Interesting, didn't know this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padosan
this I knew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padosan
It is based on a Bengali story "Pasher Bari" [2] by Arun Chowdhury, which was first adapted in Bengali in 1952 as Pasher Bari directed by Sudhir Mukherjee and starring Bhanu Bannerjee.[3] It was made in Telugu as Pakkinti Ammayi (1953)[4] starring Anjali Devi, Relangi, and singer A. M. Rajah, in Tamil as Adutha Veettu Penn (1960). It was again remade into the Telugu film Pakkinti Ammayi (1981) starring Jayasudha, K. Chakravarthi and S.P. Balasubrahmanyam. In Kannada as 'Pakkadamane Hudugi' (2003) starring Raghavendra Rajkumar and Anant Nag.
this I knew.
Reportedly the song 'Ek Chatur Naar' (a duet by Kishore Kumar and Manna Dey) was partly improvised by Kishore Kumar at the time of recording and Manna Dey, determined to show Kishore Kumar how he would sing the duet better (since Kishore had not been trained classically), got into the mood of the song and immortalized 'Ek Chatur Naar'. Legend also has it that Manna Dey was upset by the fact that in the picturisation of the song, the singing competition between the two heroes (Dutt and Mehmood) was won by Dutt, for whom the background singing was done by Kishore. Dey didn't like the fact that a classically trained singer like himself would have to lose, though only on-screen, to an un-trained singer (Kishore). In the song, at a couple of times Mehmood had to say "sur gadbad jee" against Sunil Dutt where Kishore was singing hence Dey refused to say those words so Mehmood gave his own voice for the same.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sat May 12, 2012 9:55 pm
Tracy Whitney wrote:Sunil Dutt a panjabi.
am watching the movie. guess he's a rajput/jat in it. not punju.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by MaxEntropy_Man Sun May 13, 2012 8:17 am
it is not my intention to defend or criticize alternate versions of this disgusting movie. i have a vague recollection of aduththa vIttuppeNN and i don't remember this specific type of idiotic stereotyping of any group. anyway that's besides the point.
the fact that no southern indian here with the exception of TBT has said that they enjoyed this characterization tells you something -- they haven't seen the movie or that they dislike it (aside: they may chime in now and say they enjoyed it, especially because i've said this). the former is less likely because there are certain things about indian popular culture that one can't easily escape growing up and this ugly movie is one of them.
the fact that no southern indian here with the exception of TBT has said that they enjoyed this characterization tells you something -- they haven't seen the movie or that they dislike it (aside: they may chime in now and say they enjoyed it, especially because i've said this). the former is less likely because there are certain things about indian popular culture that one can't easily escape growing up and this ugly movie is one of them.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sun May 13, 2012 8:55 am
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is not my intention to defend or criticize alternate versions of this disgusting movie. i have a vague recollection of aduththa vIttuppeNN and i don't remember this specific type of idiotic stereotyping of any group. anyway that's besides the point.
the fact that no southern indian here with the exception of TBT has said that they enjoyed this characterization tells you something -- they haven't seen the movie or that they dislike it (aside: they may chime in now and say they enjoyed it, especially because i've said this). the former is less likely because there are certain things about indian popular culture that one can't easily escape growing up and this ugly movie is one of them.
My mom also didn't like the movie much, or that kind of silly comedy in general, so ya you are not alone here. Well her grunt was at such uncle looking peeps acting like teenagers. Dad loved Kishore Kumar unconditionally, but then most doctors that I know love silly comedy for whatever reason.
Saw half the movie again last night, hoping to hate it now than I'm older, but I still liked it. In fact I found new reasons to appreciate and laugh at some things that I had missed earlier.
On another note, noticed that Keshto Mukherji's character is of a bong, and they make fun of his hindi pronunciation all through it. Happens in real life too.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by garam_kuta Sun May 13, 2012 9:39 am
[quote="Rashmun"][quote="Rashmun"]
The irony is essentially all indians fit to your 'short statured men' profile . I could never ever understand why AB was lionized - besides screaming in Namak haram and Zanzeer etc., which anyone could have done and gotten awards, he is such an anomalous outlier ( I am being charitable here) with whom almost no mainstream Indian can identify with. I used to be outraged with folks in exhibitions/fairs/circus who were using midgets in dark tents with scary background noise/music and charge extra money to see them. I wonder why they never did such things with people who were too all for the average indians to get the same profit. Perhaps the legacy of colonialism and reverence for the mythical tall europeans i don't know - another irony the mainstream brits men particularly, were mostly of the same height and stout as the indians.
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Tracy Whitney wrote:
on another note, should short statured men find this song offensive?
The irony is essentially all indians fit to your 'short statured men' profile . I could never ever understand why AB was lionized - besides screaming in Namak haram and Zanzeer etc., which anyone could have done and gotten awards, he is such an anomalous outlier ( I am being charitable here) with whom almost no mainstream Indian can identify with. I used to be outraged with folks in exhibitions/fairs/circus who were using midgets in dark tents with scary background noise/music and charge extra money to see them. I wonder why they never did such things with people who were too all for the average indians to get the same profit. Perhaps the legacy of colonialism and reverence for the mythical tall europeans i don't know - another irony the mainstream brits men particularly, were mostly of the same height and stout as the indians.
garam_kuta- Posts : 3768
Join date : 2011-05-18
Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sun May 13, 2012 10:35 am
garam_kuta wrote:Perhaps the legacy of colonialism and reverence for the mythical tall europeans i don't know - another irony the mainstream brits men particularly, were mostly of the same height and stout as the indians.
Could be. I suppose it is harmless as long as it remains confined to the silver screen and the momentary hours of "suspended disbelief' it induces. Spill over can be dangerous but we are also a free society insofar as watching desired content in a movie goes.
But what you say about AB is not entirely true either. AB was a flop hero for a long time - his height and chiselled jaw line did not help. In fact his failure and lack of offers were attributed to his disproportionate height that dwarfed heroines. He ran into luck when he "invented" the "angry young man" role that resonated with the frustrated youths of the 70s. Later, by when he had tasted success, he switched to comedy and proved his versatility. I don't think we have any other example of a 6'3" hero -- his son maybe?
There are many things I don't like about him btw.
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by garam_kuta Sun May 13, 2012 3:51 pm
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:garam_kuta wrote:Perhaps the legacy of colonialism and reverence for the mythical tall europeans i don't know - another irony the mainstream brits men particularly, were mostly of the same height and stout as the indians.
Could be. I suppose it is harmless as long as it remains confined to the silver screen and the momentary hours of "suspended disbelief' it induces. Spill over can be dangerous but we are also a free society insofar as watching desired content in a movie goes.
But what you say about AB is not entirely true either. AB was a flop hero for a long time - his height and chiselled jaw line did not help. In fact his failure and lack of offers were attributed to his disproportionate height that dwarfed heroines. He ran into luck when he "invented" the "angry young man" role that resonated with the frustrated youths of the 70s. Later, by when he had tasted success, he switched to comedy and proved his versatility. I don't think we have any other example of a 6'3" hero -- his son maybe?
There are many things I don't like about him btw.
i accede to your views bhaiya - just one more thing, the sheer number, i mean UP mass unconditionally supported the son of their soil, I should think. aside- but for a couple of rare exceptions, for quite sometime, the difference between bollywood heroes and heroines was the length of their hair - and the fluffy stuffings
garam_kuta- Posts : 3768
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Sun May 13, 2012 6:36 pm
Regarding AB, he also got a little help from Indira Gandhi initially. Also, if I remember someone from those times saying it correctly, having him would also help get censor cleared on all those new wave of violent movies, so he was wanted by producers/directors initially. Eventually of course, he proved his talent.
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artood2- Posts : 1321
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by truthbetold Tue May 15, 2012 8:54 pm
Two people who helped AB get his due recognition are jaya bhaduri and hrishikesh mukerjee. Hrishikesh gave AB a big break in Anand a massively popular movie starring rajesh khanna. Then came Zanzeer followed by hrishikesh's Namak haram. In between these hits jaya helped him by insisting him as costar. Finally Deewar established him as the biggest actor/star ever.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
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Re: Ek Chatur Naar
by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 11:58 pm
interesting TBT. he partly owes it to jaya to help him gain recognition.
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