A breath of fresh air

Nice to visit this forum after a hiatus. Looks like all my favorite people are here! This might be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

hello GC. where are you these days? london or outsource-city? i was in bangalore for a few days. did i run into you? i was trying hard not to -- sorry if i did.

Still in Bangalore. Been busy taking care of my mom who has been up and down healthwise. The mango season is in full swing here. Have tried pretty much all the varieties. My fav is still malgova. If I ran into you, you must have been the guy who caused me to sneeze a lot! Glad this place is bereft of and ! Hope all is splendid with you. Did you finally decide on the books for your kids? I just finished re-reading "The Man Who Knew Infinity" -- a wonderful book on Ramanujan, the mathematician. You might want to read it at some point. Among other things it also gives a vivid glimpse of the Tambrahm culture back in the turn of the last century.

goodcitizn wrote:Still in Bangalore. Been busy taking care of my mom who has been up and down healthwise. The mango season is in full swing here. Have tried pretty much all the varieties. My fav is still malgova. If I ran into you, you must have been the guy who caused me to sneeze a lot! Glad this place is bereft of and ! Hope all is splendid with you. Did you finally decide on the books for your kids? I just finished re-reading "The Man Who Knew Infinity" -- a wonderful book on Ramanujan, the mathematician. You might want to read it at some point. Among other things it also gives a vivid glimpse of the Tambrahm culture back in the turn of the last century.

Hey GC, good to see you. It is great that you are able to take care of your mom through ill health -- the fact that you are there will make it a lot easier for her to recover. The mangoes are what I miss the most about India (apart from family.) And this is the seventh summer I will not have mangoes. Life sucks.

I had always felt a twinge that, having lived in the U.S. for eons, I had somehow neglected taking care of both my parents who preferred living in Bangalore. Must be the curse besetting all NRI's. Now that my dad is gone, I am glad that at least I am able to care for my mom. I plan to leave next month since my kid brother will be visiting her from Austin. However, I have thoroughly enjoyed my sojourn in India, particularly visiting various places from north to south. A great country indeed.

Talking of mangoes, at the risk of provoking the wrath of Impedimenta, I must say that Tambrahms have cultivated various dishes around the mango. The raw ones are great for making a special rice as well as chutneys. The ripe ones are used for making a sweet and sour kind of sambar or rasam. Of course, the baby mangoes are used for pickles (although my favorite is avakkai which I presume is an andhra product). It is quite amazing how the aroma of ripening mangoes evoke such pleasure when you wander through the bazaar!

Hope all is well on that side of the Himalayas!

lol GC. it's heartening to hear that you are there for your mother. my mother left in a hurry and my father was a story that had a happy ending but that i did not get the chance to repay him my debts.

i agree with you fully that the south (or TN, ahem!) has the most creative ways of cooking with unripe (and ripe) mangoes.

my older kid read a lot of books. i will thank CH for this. him and my younger are in hyderabad right now. much to my regret, they spent only 10 mins in salarjung museum today. but, in their defense, i can imagine that the place must be suffocating and inhospitable to tourists.

i am putting the man who knew infinity in my reading list queue. thanks.

I am not too familiar with North Indian cooking but presume that there are dishes made out of mangoes as well. I remember having mango halwa in Delhi which was delicious. My mom has left over mangoes cut up and left on the terrace to dry to be saved for mango sambar or rasam during the off-season. The same goes for other veggies like okra, brinjal, bitter gourd etc after they are semi-boiled, lightly salted and left under the sun to be parched. Nothing is wasted. A good preservation method cultivated in the pre-fridge era I suppose!

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
my older kid read a lot of books. i will thank CH for this. him and my younger are in hyderabad right now. much to my regret, they spent only 10 mins in salarjung museum today. but, in their defense, i can imagine that the place must be suffocating and inhospitable to tourists.

i am putting the man who knew infinity in my reading list queue. thanks.

That's bad of u to send ur kids alone to hyd...& urself sitting here in coffeehouse drooling on kanimozhi & matchmaking CHers

i too enjoyed reading kanigel's biography of ramanujan. i've read it over and over again. i like the book because it didn't stop at romanticizing R's life and exoticizing tambrahm culture, but also dealt with the seriousness it deserves, and in some reasonable technical detail, R's contributions to 20th century mathematics; i.e. in as much detail as is possible in a book for lay people.

[quote="Rekz"]

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:& matchmaking CHers

i am sorry i matchmaked you. i will not repeat it. please leave me alone.

goodcitizn wrote:I am not too familiar with North Indian cooking but presume that there are dishes made out of mangoes as well. I remember having mango halwa in Delhi which was delicious.

there don't seem to be many dishes with magoes (ripe/unripe) in the north. i am not familiar with mago halwa -- must be a latter day invention. i have seen unripe mangoes be used in dal, pickle and beverages (panna) in the north but there aren't many variations. i just read your post again -- the only thing extra tambrahm cooking seems to have is mango rice. maybe there isn't much of a difference. i think i'll take back my statement.

IMO the best thing made of unripe mangoes is this -- very much a tambrahm thing.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:IMO the best thing made of unripe mangoes is this -- very much a tambrahm thing.

do you know if the recipe originated in U.P.?

http://indianfood.about.com/od/picklesandpreserves/r/upaamachaar.htm

there are some similarities, but the tambrahm version is made of whole tender mangoes.

[quote="Huzefa Kapasi"]

Rekz wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:& matchmaking CHers

i am sorry i matchmaked you. i will not repeat it. please leave me alone.

Good uncle but i can't leave u alone...don't we post at the same timezone:)

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:but, in their defense, i can imagine that the place must be suffocating and inhospitable to tourists.

I can assure you that it is suffocating and inhospitable to all visitors, tourists and locals alike. There is very little signage, and it takes a lot of effort to understand what is on display. The collection is quite vast, although not eclectic. I used to be taken there on school excursions, and remember very little of the museum itself from those days. Then a few years ago I visited the museum as an adult with my wife (then fiancee.) That was quite nice.

Rekz wrote:Good uncle but i can't leave u alone...don't we post at the same timezone:)

lol. guess i'll have to figure out how to change my timezone. enjoy.

charvaka wrote: I used to be taken there on school excursions, and remember very little of the museum itself from those days.

i too saw it during a school excursion -- we had done a south india trip right upto kanyakumari.

anyway, after spending 10 mins in the museum, my kids went to mcdonalds. so, to the question, what did you see in hyderabad, the answer is going to be, mcdonalds!

they did see the golconda fort yesterday. today they are going to ramaoji film city.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

i am putting the man who knew infinity in my reading list queue. thanks.

You may enjoy "The man who loved only numbers" as well. It is on Erdos and so there isn't any Indian flavour to it.

you are hell bent on weaning me away from indian writing. ok, i'm ordering this too. *going over to flipkart.com* btw, nice wraps, mmmm.

[/quote]

You may enjoy "The man who loved only numbers" as well. It is on Erdos and so there isn't any Indian flavour to it.
[/quote]

>>> He of the 'erdos-bacon number' fame? Natalie Portman supposedly has a rather low erdos-bacon number. I know more abt kevin bacon than erdos, which isn't saying much, but find that whole formulation intriguing.

goodcitizn wrote:Nice to visit this forum after a hiatus. Looks like all my favorite people are here! This might be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

>>> hey GC, how's tricks in bengaluru?

goodcitizn wrote:Nice to visit this forum after a hiatus. Looks like all my favorite people are here! This might be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

Son:

I am sure your mother is happy to her son near her side during her illness in her old age. You are doing the right thing at the right time.

Here: Take this Vibhuti Prasad.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i too enjoyed reading kanigel's biography of ramanujan. i've read it over and over again. i like the book because it didn't stop at romanticizing R's life and exoticizing tambrahm culture, but also dealt with the seriousness it deserves, and in some reasonable technical detail, R's contributions to 20th century mathematics; i.e. in as much detail as is possible in a book for lay people.

Max: I took about a week to leisurely read the book. Might have been my fifth time over the last couple of decades. I thoroughly enjoyed Kanigel's well-researched writing. I then googled to see some good stuff on him, especially the interview with his wife/widow. Its sad that she was destitute for the longest time having to make a living tailoring clothes. Only towards the fag-end of her life did she receive some financial assistance. I visited the house he lived in on Sarangapani street in Kumbakonam. The house is still maintained the way it had been a hundred years ago.

i'd love to go see the house on sarangapani st. chandra commissioned a sculptor and made several busts of R and gave one to his wife.

i can't wait to read this book. i hope it doesn't turn out to be a damp squib. i know little of math but i have read a lot about ramanujan's life -- i can't remember where; maybe in a russell or someone else's long essay about him.

goodcitizn wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i too enjoyed reading kanigel's biography of ramanujan. i've read it over and over again. i like the book because it didn't stop at romanticizing R's life and exoticizing tambrahm culture, but also dealt with the seriousness it deserves, and in some reasonable technical detail, R's contributions to 20th century mathematics; i.e. in as much detail as is possible in a book for lay people.

Max: I took about a week to leisurely read the book. Might have been my fifth time over the last couple of decades. I thoroughly enjoyed Kanigel's well-researched writing. I then googled to see some good stuff on him, especially the interview with his wife/widow. Its sad that she was destitute for the longest time having to make a living tailoring clothes. Only towards the fag-end of her life did she receive some financial assistance. I visited the house he lived in on Sarangapani street in Kumbakonam. The house is still maintained the way it had been a hundred years ago.

>>>>> In the show on PBS- this was several yrs ago-mrs. ramanujan was quite outspoken on her financial plight and about how there had been little assistance when they needed it. If I remember correctly, there was also an adopted son. What was especially touching was an american academic finding out about the local 'ponnadai' custom and presenting one to mrs. R.

the story of the ramanujan bust.

I remember the mention in the show of the sculptor from Minnesota. If I remember correctly the show may have coincided with the 100th b'day (Ramanujan's) celebration at U of I- Urbana Champaign.

There were other poignant moments as well like Mrs. ramnuajan expressing her wish to go to england with him and his working on his papers furiously at the end.

Kris wrote:
>>> He of the 'erdos-bacon number' fame? Natalie Portman supposedly has a rather low erdos-bacon number. I know more abt kevin bacon than erdos, which isn't saying much, but find that whole formulation intriguing.

I know of erdos number but did not know about this "erdos-bacon" number.

Here's a film on Erdos from youtube (it has 9 parts), if you are interested in knowing more about him. He was such an unusual character.

blabberwock wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>> He of the 'erdos-bacon number' fame? Natalie Portman supposedly has a rather low erdos-bacon number. I know more abt kevin bacon than erdos, which isn't saying much, but find that whole formulation intriguing.

I know of erdos number but did not know about this "erdos-bacon" number.

Here's a film on Erdos from youtube (it has 9 parts), if you are interested in knowing more about him. He was such an unusual character.

>>> Thanks for the link. Will check it out. The Bacon number is roughly the showbiz equivalent of the erdos #, only it has to with appearing with kevin bacon or appearing with someone who has been in a movie with kevin bacon, in which case your bacon # is 2 and so on. The sum of the erdos # and the bacon # is the erdos-bacon #, I think. Anyway, one of the lighthearted erdos' numbers is that of hank aaron, because he and erdos autographed the same baseball

Kris wrote:

>>> Thanks for the link. Will check it out. The Bacon number is roughly the showbiz equivalent of the erdos #, only it has to with appearing with kevin bacon or appearing with someone who has been in a movie with kevin bacon, in which case your bacon # is 2 and so on. The sum of the erdos # and the bacon # is the erdos-bacon #, I think. Anyway, one of the lighthearted erdos' numbers is that of hank aaron, because he and erdos autographed the same baseball

Kevin Bacon - did he act in "Usual suspects"? I need to google. Am woefully out of touch with hollywood and clueless about baseball and the world (ha!) series drama.

blabberwock wrote: Am woefully out of touch with hollywood and clueless about baseball and the world (ha!) series drama.

I do not follow much of sport but I am pretty sure baseball World Series is a long way off.

artood2 wrote:

blabberwock wrote: Am woefully out of touch with hollywood and clueless about baseball and the world (ha!) series drama.

I do not follow much of sport but I am pretty sure baseball World Series is a long way off.

"World" series, right. I had no idea who Hank Aaron was until I googled his name. I could never appreciate baseball and get excited about it.

Yeah the world is always small here. I do not appreciate sports much but someone used to watching test cricket should have no problem watching baseball. Batting is probably easier. Bowling/pitching is tougher in baseball. Fielding is easier with glove but throws have to be accurate and no errors allowed.

artood2 wrote:Yeah the world is always small here. I do not appreciate sports much but someone used to watching test cricket should have no problem watching baseball. Batting is probably easier. Bowling/pitching is tougher in baseball. Fielding is easier with glove but throws have to be accurate and no errors allowed.

All I have to say to you is that you are committing blasphemy. Being a droid, you may just get away with this first time offence.

Kevin Bacon - did he act in "Usual suspects"? I need to google. Am woefully out of touch with hollywood and clueless about baseball and the world (ha!) series drama.

>>> I know who Bacon is, but couldn't tell you the names of his movies. I am not a baseball fan either, although I have been to a couple of dodger games many years ago. Aaron is one of the historic greats in the game.. I could probably name a few more, but that is the extent of my knowledge. football is more my cup of tea..

I do not watch much of sports. My feelings are mostly based on description from my baseball addicted friend. The starting pitcher in baseball is going to throw around 100 balls continuously. That is a good 17 overs back-to-back at speeds over 90mph. That is incredible. I feel batting is easier in baseball because you do not need to move your feet and concentration over long durations is not a factor. Baseball has more strategy and its rules seem to be as convoluted as cricket. As an outsider I think one game's fans should readily adopt the other one.

artood2 wrote:I do not watch much of sports. My feelings are mostly based on description from my baseball addicted friend. The starting pitcher in baseball is going to throw around 100 balls continuously. That is a good 17 overs back-to-back at speeds over 90mph. That is incredible. I feel batting is easier in baseball because you do not need to move your feet and concentration over long durations is not a factor. Baseball has more strategy and its rules seem to be as convoluted as cricket. As an outsider I think one game's fans should readily adopt the other one.

Some thoughts:

I think baseball is a simplified version of cricket suited for American TV. As a sport, it simply lacks the infinite possibilities, the drama, drama within a drama that's possible in a cricket match. T20 cricket can probably be compared to baseball better.

In a lot of cricket matches, it isn't just the end result that matter. There are so many interesting byplays that take place within the contest that makes it a much richer and more exciting sport than baseball. Individual battles, historic duels, playing for time, balancing attack and defense, effect of weather conditions, pitch, shine on the ball - all these are not relevant in baseball, AFAIK.

If there are as many nuances in baseball, I am certainly unaware of it. It certainly did not capture my interest. I think it was Shashi Tharoor who said that comparing baseball to test cricket is like comparing addition to calculus.

Kris wrote:

>>> I know who Bacon is, but couldn't tell you the names of his movies. I am not a baseball fan either, although I have been to a couple of dodger games many years ago. Aaron is one of the historic greats in the game.. I could probably name a few more, but that is the extent of my knowledge. football is more my cup of tea..

OK - it turns out that it was Kevin Spacey in Usual Suspects and not Kevin Bacon. I do recall watching some of the movies listed under KB but obviously, he hasn't left a strong enough impression on me to remember him after all these years.

I know who Babe Ruth is and that's about it.

disagree with nearly everything blabberwock has said about baseball. i used to have the same opinion until i actually started following the sport.

blabberwock wrote:
There are so many interesting byplays that take place within the contest that makes it a much richer and more exciting sport than baseball. Individual battles, historic duels, playing for time, balancing attack and defense, effect of weather conditions, pitch, shine on the ball - all these are not relevant in baseball, AFAIK.

i don't know about baseball; i hate it more than i hate golf. however, barring "playing for time" (which happens only in test cricket) i think other things are offered by every sport. wind/humidity/heat/the nature of the surface (clay, grass etc) all affect other sports. i have never bought "cricket is a gentleman's game" and "it is a game of glorious uncertainties" cliche either. i think it was perhaps never a gentleman's game and it is as uncertain as any other sport. you can have 3 goals scored against you in the last few mins, and you can save 3 match points and then two sets to win the tourney. as uncertain as KKR vs MI last night.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:disagree with nearly everything blabberwock has said about baseball. i used to have the same opinion until i actually started following the sport.

Sir, this startling new revelation of a preference for the most lawnmowerish of sports is most disturbing. I'm of course entirely ignorant of such matters, so I consulted Wiki on the commonest sports that connoisseurs sipping a Witcap Dubbel or a Westmalle Tripel might like casting their discerning glances upon. Not baseball, it turns out.

Or is this an attempt to grant respectability and discerning status to yet another of the lowbrow, unwashed masses' pastimes?

blabberwock wrote:Some thoughts:

I think baseball is a simplified version of cricket suited for American TV. As a sport, it simply lacks the infinite possibilities, the drama, drama within a drama that's possible in a cricket match. T20 cricket can probably be compared to baseball better.

In a lot of cricket matches, it isn't just the end result that matter. There are so many interesting byplays that take place within the contest that makes it a much richer and more exciting sport than baseball. Individual battles, historic duels, playing for time, balancing attack and defense, effect of weather conditions, pitch, shine on the ball - all these are not relevant in baseball, AFAIK.

If there are as many nuances in baseball, I am certainly unaware of it. It certainly did not capture my interest. I think it was Shashi Tharoor who said that comparing baseball to test cricket is like comparing addition to calculus.

I think all of that applies to baseball also (barring the shine of the ball). Playing for time is not relelvant but individual duels are very much relevant and their is an additional element of strategy. Again, this is an outside view. I just get a feeling that Indians for some reason adopt American football and basketball easier than baseball.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:disagree with nearly everything blabberwock has said about baseball. i used to have the same opinion until i actually started following the sport.

Sir, this startling new revelation of a preference for the most lawnmowerish of sports is most disturbing. I'm of course entirely ignorant of such matters, so I consulted Wiki on the commonest sports that connoisseurs sipping a Witcap Dubbel or a Westmalle Tripel might like casting their discerning glances upon. Not baseball, it turns out.

Or is this an attempt to grant respectability and discerning status to yet another of the lowbrow, unwashed masses' pastimes?

sir the dubbels and tripels existed on the planet before lawnmower beers came into existence. they were first brewed in the middle ages by monks. there is no connection between them and the coronas, budweisers, and heinekens of the world. so mentioning them was by no means to elevate beer and its drinking, but to make the point that the lawnmowers are not the only kind of beer.

and baseball is to cricket is not as lawnmower beer is to a nice belgian dubbel. but if you want to insist on the analogy, it's more like a microbrewed american pale ale is to a british IPA.

Another Brick wrote:

blabberwock wrote:
There are so many interesting byplays that take place within the contest that makes it a much richer and more exciting sport than baseball. Individual battles, historic duels, playing for time, balancing attack and defense, effect of weather conditions, pitch, shine on the ball - all these are not relevant in baseball, AFAIK.

i don't know about baseball; i hate it more than i hate golf. however, barring "playing for time" (which happens only in test cricket) i think other things are offered by every sport. wind/humidity/heat/the nature of the surface (clay, grass etc) all affect other sports. i have never bought "cricket is a gentleman's game" and "it is a game of glorious uncertainties" cliche either. i think it was perhaps never a gentleman's game and it is as uncertain as any other sport. you can have 3 goals scored against you in the last few mins, and you can save 3 match points and then two sets to win the tourney. as uncertain as KKR vs MI last night.

Aside..

Cricket, baseball, tennis are uncertain because the "offense" in those game can never hide the ball from the "defense" during the dying moments of a game.

In American Football and Basketball one can keep the ball and hide it away from "defense" to preserve a lead.

In cricket, baseball and tennis you have to bowl, pitch or serve to your opponent till the very end. That gives an opportunity for the "defense" to influence the outcome.

Cricket is interesting because strategies are made and applied on the run. whereas baseball has a first base coach, second base coach, third base coach, manager, pitching coach, tobacco chewing coach, spitting coach, crotch adjusting coach etc etc etc..

In general the lower the scoring in a game, the outcome is more unpredicatable. you can score a goal in the last min or a home run in your last at bat. I do not think cricket is more unpredicatable than the other sports.


Cricket has lesser strategy on each play. baseball strategy are at micro level. Nothing prevents cricket from having as many coaches. It is just the way it is becasue it has always been like that.

artood2 wrote:

blabberwock wrote:Some thoughts:

I think baseball is a simplified version of cricket suited for American TV. As a sport, it simply lacks the infinite possibilities, the drama, drama within a drama that's possible in a cricket match. T20 cricket can probably be compared to baseball better.

In a lot of cricket matches, it isn't just the end result that matter. There are so many interesting byplays that take place within the contest that makes it a much richer and more exciting sport than baseball. Individual battles, historic duels, playing for time, balancing attack and defense, effect of weather conditions, pitch, shine on the ball - all these are not relevant in baseball, AFAIK.

If there are as many nuances in baseball, I am certainly unaware of it. It certainly did not capture my interest. I think it was Shashi Tharoor who said that comparing baseball to test cricket is like comparing addition to calculus.

I think all of that applies to baseball also (barring the shine of the ball). Playing for time is not relelvant but individual duels are very much relevant and their is an additional element of strategy. Again, this is an outside view. I just get a feeling that Indians for some reason adopt American football and basketball easier than baseball.

First off, I hate american football and all its padded giants. I would rather watch Rugby. Basketball has never interested me but know enough to keep up with the "how about them lakers?" kind of typical american small talk.

I am not a total outsider wrt baseball because I used to follow baseball seriously for about a couple of years when I was cricket deprived, surrounded by a lot who grew up soaked in baseball culture. I have been to the ballpark several times to watch the games live. I also played regularly in a softball league, which I confess was somewhat of a joke (though the women took it quite seriously).

(1) I don’t think one can compare a 3-4 hour game to a 5 day test match cricket. Weather conditions, state of the ball etc. while they may have some effect on baseball pitching, I cannot imagine it to be on the same scale as a test match. In a 5 day test, one can having an overcast opening day where the ball swings and seams and a fifth day where the pitch turns dry and starts cracking with a couple of days in between of perfect conditions for batting, posing a wide range of challenges to the technique and skillset of a batsman. The sheer length of the game is very important and cricket beats baseball hands down here.

(2) There is no 22 yard pitch involved in baseball. How many possible variations of pitches can be there, compared to the possibilities in cricket? The effect and the use of pitch is a very important factor in cricket and dramatically expands the variations possible. While there are various kinds of "balls", there is only so much one can do with a full-toss.

(3) The number of strokes and the aesthetics involved – no cover drives, no off-drives, no straight bat strokes. With just a horizontal bat (club?), how many deft strokes can be played? Cricket beats baseball in sheer aesthetics.

(4) Fielding – baseball certainly demands more athleticism from outfielders and cricket has been influenced by this but an over-sized glove to catch a ball? They need to get rid of that to compete. Where are the close catchers who need remarkable reflexes to grab a hard, flying cricket ball with BARE hands?

(5) Can baseball accommodate and glorify various kinds of batters? Who is the Gavaskar in baseball? Who is the Boycott? Who is Viv Richards? Also, do the batters have to deal with balls directed at their body and head without it being declared a “ball”?


While baseball, I admit, has its moments and strategies, I could not see anything that is as subtle, fascinating, engrossing and beautiful as hard test match cricket. I see beauty in test cricket and an ugly, power game in baseball. One is an Ozu movie, the other is a James Bond movie. JB is obviously much revered as well. T20 slog-bash cricket and baseball make a better comparison. T20 too has strategies, I am told. They also borrow the baseball terminologies - dugout for instance. And some batsmen use the baseball style of wielding the willow.


Here’s a clip that’s forever etched in my memory. Can you show me something of this intensity and class from baseball?

I must add that my encounters with baseball happened over 12 years ago and I am completely out of touch with the current scene.