Rape in Delhi bus is a big human rights problem

by truthbetold Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:38 pm

This kind of incidents are happening in Delhi at regular intervals. These incidents take away whatever little freedom women enjoy. Govt as usual takes token action and talks tough till the incident is forgotten.
The amazing thing is delhites shake off these incidents and go back to what is called normal life. In this case going back to normalcy is accepting defeat.

by Merlot Daruwala Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:23 am

truthbetold wrote:The amazing thing is delhites shake off these incidents and go back to what is called normal life. In this case going back to normalcy is accepting defeat.

So what do you propose Delhiites do?

by Guest Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:34 am

when i was a kid, the billa ranga case was the first such crime i was exposed to. the names billa and ranga still inspire terror in me. in 35 years, nothing much seems to have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeta_and_Sanjay_Chopra_kidnapping_case

by truthbetold Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:09 am

Dilli ke log can do a lot. They could force a change in police top brass, force govt to come up with a policy prescription that says rape numbers will be cut in half by six months, force home secretary or home minister totake responsility and act, and any number of other things.
the govt has to demonstrate its intent in a forceful visible way in the short term and show some results in medium term say six months.dixit was cm for more than a decade and she should be held accountable.
Then there is ysr method. In a similar case in warangal ap, the accused was shot dead while trying escape from police. Ysr's popularity went up sky high.
Crime cannot be stopped completely but it can be reduced. Even in india. Yes even in delhi.

by Merlot Daruwala Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:16 am

Good point. Forcing the police commissioner to quit because of a particularly grisly crime is a sure-fire way of bringing down crime.

Policy prescriptions to cut rapes in half? Such as?

by truthbetold Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:33 am

Merlit,
You sound as if what is happening in delhi cannot be reversed and political and police should not be responsible. There are many instances in ap strong district level officers brought crime to its knees. When congress returned to power with advisors like you those police officers were sent to desk jobs or special forces.
i am sure delhi police with right leadership could improve the situation by aggressively clearing old cases, and proactively sending messages to criminals that rape will bring down heavy reaction.
In any case delhi police does not my suggestions to solve the problems. They need political go ahead.

by confuzzled dude Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:33 pm

Deploy bus marshals and expedite trials.

by Guest Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:49 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Deploy bus marshals and expedite trials.

bus-marshals is an impractical idea. the police and judiciary are not to be blamed in this incident. the culprits (4 of 6) got nabbed in 24 hours (fast!) and they will get life sentences in a few years or death penalty (if the victim does not survive). a similar incident happened in durgapur, west bengal, a few months ago (the victim survived). and that too in a posh locality of the town. that when west bengal reports the lowest rate of crime on women. it remains that the perpetrators were of a criminal bent of mind in the delhi incident. the one accused who spoke in court that he deserved to be hanged -- he had assaulted the boy, not the woman. the problem is with people with a criminal-bent-of-mind. yes, women are easy targets for them -- that remains.

by Guest Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:25 pm

also, west bengal reports among the lowest crime rate. i think it is a matter of culture but not culture alone. executive, legislature, judiciary, all have to be effective to curb crime. in west bengal, executive, judiciary and legislature are all but absent but yet WB reports a low crime rate. perhaps it is culture but i am not sure. it is good jaya bacchan stood 2 hours in the rajya sabha today. it is good sonia ganhi shed a tear.

by Guest Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:31 pm

http://zeenews.india.com/news/delhi/delhi-gang-rape-victim-battles-on-undergoes-fifth-surgery_817569.html

by Kumarg Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:37 pm

Horrific to know Doctors said that Duodenum, which is the first part of the intestine, removed from the stomach. ......her small intestine is non existent. This sounds so violent, poor girl, may god speed up her recovery!

by Sandee2020 Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:47 pm

Was the girl alone on the bus? No other passengers to stop this atrocity?

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:58 pm

Sandee2020 wrote:Was the girl alone on the bus? No other passengers to stop this atrocity?

It wasn't a regular bus run. A bunch of scum (incl a bus driver) got drunk, went on a joy ride, picked up some fellow and robbed him, then chanced upon this girl and a friend waiting at a bus stop and suckered them into getting on board. So no, there were no other passengers.

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:06 pm

Ya. Isn't it bus lines fault too? Not knowing where their buses are? How can people just use them for their own entertainment? What about those bus stops? No known schedule? No checking on what bus is on route, etc.

So random. And so very unfortunate for the girl.

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:08 pm

truthbetold wrote:Merlit,
You sound as if what is happening in delhi cannot be reversed and political and police should not be responsible. There are many instances in ap strong district level officers brought crime to its knees. When congress returned to power with advisors like you those police officers were sent to desk jobs or special forces.
i am sure delhi police with right leadership could improve the situation by aggressively clearing old cases, and proactively sending messages to criminals that rape will bring down heavy reaction.
In any case delhi police does not my suggestions to solve the problems. They need political go ahead.

Yes, Delhi police (like any other big city police in India) are handicapped by many things. But much as you feel this intense need to make some profound statements abt ineffectual policing etc, you are barking up the wrong tree. The cops cracked the case in 24 hrs and 5 out of the 6 rapists are now in custody. It's just a matter of time before they get the last guy as well.

Sadly, in the all round outrage over the sheer barbarity of the crime, nobody's going to pat the cops for a job well done.

I was watching news anchor after news anchor feign indignant outrage (just like you) and demand why the cops didnt prevent the event. C'mon, really? Can cops really divine the intentions of a bunch of opportunistic criminals or can a patrol figure out what's happening inside a bus with darkened windows in the night?? Knee-jerks.

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:14 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Merlit,
You sound as if what is happening in delhi cannot be reversed and political and police should not be responsible. There are many instances in ap strong district level officers brought crime to its knees. When congress returned to power with advisors like you those police officers were sent to desk jobs or special forces.
i am sure delhi police with right leadership could improve the situation by aggressively clearing old cases, and proactively sending messages to criminals that rape will bring down heavy reaction.
In any case delhi police does not my suggestions to solve the problems. They need political go ahead.

Yes, Delhi police (like any other big city police in India) are handicapped by many things. But much as you feel this intense need to make some profound statements abt ineffectual policing etc, you are barking up the wrong tree. The cops cracked the case in 24 hrs and 5 out of the 6 rapists are now in custody. It's just a matter of time before they get the last guy as well.

Sadly, in the all round outrage over the sheer barbarity of the crime, nobody's going to pat the cops for a job well done.

I was watching news anchor after news anchor feign indignant outrage (just like you) and demand why the cops didnt prevent the event. C'mon, really? Can cops really divine the intentions of a bunch of opportunistic criminals or can a patrol figure out what's happening inside a bus with darkened windows in the night?? Knee-jerks.

what punishment should be meted out to the rapists? In this particular case, the girl seems to have been violently violated with an iron rod which is why her intestines came out. Is capital punishment justified in such cases?

by Petrichor Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:15 pm

Deterrence = Quick investigation and identification of perps = Strong prosecution = Timely convictions = Deterrence-level punishments

If Delhi = Rape Capital, one or more of those factors above are responsible. It is easy to believe Delhi Cops are very efficient when spotlight is on them, but far more difficult for them to feign efficiency when the stats are against them.

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:48 pm

here are the stats: http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/10/15/delhi-journal-the-capital-of-crime-not-really/

analyze them at leisure. ncr or delhi has a huge population so absolute numbers or incidents should not be a pronouncement on the law and order situation of new delhi. what is concerning is that new delhi leads in kidnapping. but it should not be surprising considering it is the largest and (soon to be) the richest metro. WB has a low crime rate but a high "crime against women" rate. but WB is a prostitution capital.

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:52 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Ya. Isn't it bus lines fault too? Not knowing where their buses are? How can people just use them for their own entertainment? What about those bus stops? No known schedule? No checking on what bus is on route, etc.

Oh you're clearly not familiar with the chartered bus system in Delhi. This is just a bunch of private buses, chartered by a bunch of regular commuters for their dail commute. This is quite popular with women because unlike the DTC, these buses are (a) not crowded and (b) full of office-goers like themselves.

While the regulars pay a monthly fee, chartered buses opportunistically pick up people headed in their direction in case they're running empty. So nobody would suspect that this was an off-duty bus driver and his pals on a joyride.

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:59 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Ya. Isn't it bus lines fault too? Not knowing where their buses are? How can people just use them for their own entertainment? What about those bus stops? No known schedule? No checking on what bus is on route, etc.

Oh you're clearly not familiar with the chartered bus system in Delhi. This is just a bunch of private buses, chartered by a bunch of regular commuters for their dail commute. This is quite popular with women because unlike the DTC, these buses are (a) not crowded and (b) full of office-goers like themselves.

While the regulars pay a monthly fee, chartered buses opportunistically pick up people headed in their direction in case they're running empty. So nobody would suspect that this was an off-duty bus driver and his pals on a joyride.

oh, then instinctively, these are scarier... just like in a new city (in India) late in the night, you feel safer taking taxis where u wd register taxi's license plate and driver info, and ur destination, instead of hailing a taxi outside.

by truthbetold Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:31 pm

Merlot,
My response was logged into another thread "reforming religion .....".

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:27 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:here are the stats: http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/10/15/delhi-journal-the-capital-of-crime-not-really/

analyze them at leisure. ncr or delhi has a huge population so absolute numbers or incidents should not be a pronouncement on the law and order situation of new delhi. what is concerning is that new delhi leads in kidnapping. but it should not be surprising considering it is the largest and (soon to be) the richest metro. WB has a low crime rate but a high "crime against women" rate. but WB is a prostitution capital.

Issue #1: Under-reporting of cases

Issue #2: Statistical sophistry should not enter your calculus when, say, you as a female, decide to choose a city to live in. Of the 2579 cases of rapes in the reporting cities in India, Delhi accounted for 453. The second highest was Mumbai at 221. Most women would know what those numbers mean in terms of chances and likelihood. Delhi's population is 16 million and Mumbai 12 million, very comparable. Absolute numbers matter absolutely and should inform any opinion on the law and order situation.

Issue #3: Amongst the women that were kidnapped and abducted (numbering about 5286 from the reporting cities), Delhi accounted for a full 1681 of them.
This is enough to cause full scale terror in the hearts of Delhi women. Kanpur, the second highest at 303 barely registered a protest about the winner.

I know taking contrarian view is considered cool and all but some sensible review of the stats should encourage you to confer the Rape Capital title firmly in the hands of India's capital city.

by Guest Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 am

atcg wrote: Delhi's population is 16 million and Mumbai 12 million, very comparable. Absolute numbers matter absolutely and should inform any opinion on the law and order situation.

your analysis is correct. i got confused between delhi and ncr. ncr has a population of 22M+.

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:36 am

Lets not waste time going over stats and attacking which sate has bigger crime rate. Comparative stats between NCR and WB are irreverent.

The point is no body is coming up the answers the only 2 questions we should be asking:

Why does it happen in India with the frequency that it does?

What are the ways to prevent it and lower the crime numbers.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:40 am

Kumarg wrote:Lets not waste time going over stats and attacking which sate has bigger crime rate.

why? if you are running a company and are having financial troubles, say, wouldn't you focus on your loss leader, i.e. the division that has the biggest losses and try to tighten things up there? how would you solve a problem if you didn't know what its biggest source was?

by Seva Lamberdar Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:13 am

Rape of women in Delhi or any other place is not a human rights problem but law and order problem for which the Govt. is responsible.

by Guest Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:54 am

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=swapnika+acid+attack&oq=swapnika+&gs_l=hp.1.3.0l4.612.3272.0.6522.9.8.0.1.1.0.135.765.6j2.8.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.yaY8xXYZtaE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.b2U&fp=eeaed9fac54bfaee&bpcl=40096503&biw=1252&bih=591

There was this case in Warangal, AP, a year or two ago. Three young men poured acid at an engineering student, Swapnika. One of the guys held a grudge against her for being friendly with him and dumping him later. There was a hue and cry from e'one in the town. The girl was severely burned, lost her eye sight and all. The police caught hold of the three guys and then encountered all of them within a couple of days. The hatred was such that the e'one supported what the police did. 'Had the guys gone through the justice system the usual way, justice would've nvr been meted out' was the argument. i think they are right. The tragedy is that no one has any faith in the judicial system in India. The police commissioner became an instant hero! The girl died a few days later, but after knowing that all the three who did that to her were dead too.

The guys who tortured the poor girl in delhi don't deserve to live. (feel like shouting 'Encounter!', but won't)

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:26 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Rape of women in Delhi or any other place is not a human rights problem but law and order problem for which the Govt. is responsible.

it is a law and order problem with a human rights dimension if the government is also implicated in it. i don't know the particulars in this case, but haven't there been past instances when the rapist was from a well connected family and so was either let go or was given a mild rebuke and let go?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:29 am

kinnera wrote:http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=swapnika+acid+attack&oq=swapnika+&gs_l=hp.1.3.0l4.612.3272.0.6522.9.8.0.1.1.0.135.765.6j2.8.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.yaY8xXYZtaE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.b2U&fp=eeaed9fac54bfaee&bpcl=40096503&biw=1252&bih=591

There was this case in Warangal, AP, a year or two ago. Three young men poured acid at an engineering student, Swapnika. One of the guys held a grudge against her for being friendly with him and dumping him later. There was a hue and cry from e'one in the town. The girl was severely burned, lost her eye sight and all. The police caught hold of the three guys and then encountered all of them within a couple of days. The hatred was such that the e'one supported what the police did. 'Had the guys gone through the justice system the usual way, justice would've nvr been meted out' was the argument. i think they are right. The tragedy is that no one has any faith in the judicial system in India. The police commissioner became an instant hero! The girl died a few days later, but after knowing that all the three who did that to her were dead too.

The guys who tortured the poor girl in delhi don't deserve to live. (feel like shouting 'Encounter!', but won't)

ugh.. the original crime is unimaginable no doubt, but these kinds of extra judicial killings are shocking too. and that law enforcement officials would be treated like heroes (i thought this stuff only happened in movies) for doing this is reprehensible.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:54 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
truthbetold wrote:The amazing thing is delhites shake off these incidents and go back to what is called normal life. In this case going back to normalcy is accepting defeat.

So what do you propose Delhiites do?

Here is a dharma snadeham.........

Are the protests against fashion secularism or chaddi-ism? Are the protesters CON-secularists or Chaddis?

by Guest Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

ugh.. the original crime is unimaginable no doubt, but these kinds of extra judicial killings are shocking too. and that law enforcement officials would be treated like heroes (i thought this stuff only happened in movies) for doing this is reprehensible.

I agree. It's dangerous for the law enforcement officials to take law into their own hands and punish the culprits. This could easily go out of hand and ppl who are hailing this now could regret it later when it does go out of hands. But the thing is, crimes against women and children are not dealt with seriously and sternly in India. While rapists and pedophiles can get 'life without parole' in US, the maximum that a rapist could get is 7 yrs of imprisonment in India. But hardly any rapists get that. Even if they did, that would be only after yrs and yrs of court proceedings. Justice is hardly served! Forget abt pedophiles. the less said, the better!
The desperation of the public is quite palpable in their jubilation when the culprits are encountered. India needs an overhaul of its justice system. There needs to be a special cell to fast-tract crimes against women and children and the punishments should be more severe. Until then, the extra judicial killings for crimes against women and children will be hailed (there's one more encounter case in the town where the three culprits who kidnapped and killed 10 yr old Manisha were encountered).

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:01 pm

kinnera wrote:

There was this case in Warangal, AP, a year or two ago. Three young men poured acid at an engineering student, Swapnika. One of the guys held a grudge against her for being friendly with him and dumping him later. There was a hue and cry from e'one in the town. The girl was severely burned, lost her eye sight and all. The police caught hold of the three guys and then encountered all of them within a couple of days. The hatred was such that the e'one supported what the police did. 'Had the guys gone through the justice system the usual way, justice would've nvr been meted out' was the argument. i think they are right. The tragedy is that no one has any faith in the judicial system in India. The police commissioner became an instant hero! The girl died a few days later, but after knowing that all the three who did that to her were dead too.

The guys who tortured the poor girl in delhi don't deserve to live. (feel like shouting 'Encounter!', but won't)

Good grief, at least you stayed away from familiar castrate them justice. I'm not sure encounter (encounter in Warangal incident) served any real purpose; didn't even deter others from committing similar crimes. Do you think Govt./Police would've taken this route if the perpetrator was son of a Minister or a big-shot.

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:03 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kumarg wrote:Lets not waste time going over stats and attacking which sate has bigger crime rate.

why? if you are running a company and are having financial troubles, say, wouldn't you focus on your loss leader, i.e. the division that has the biggest losses and try to tighten things up there? how would you solve a problem if you didn't know what its biggest source was?

Ok fair question. Now you know what the biggest source is, NCR. Next,

What are the ways to prevent it and lower the crime numbers.

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:22 pm

See? People are like politicians. Everyone has their own axe to grind in this tragedy!

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:30 pm

truthbetold wrote:This kind of incidents are happening in Delhi at regular intervals. These incidents take away whatever little freedom women enjoy. Govt as usual takes token action and talks tough till the incident is forgotten.
The amazing thing is delhites shake off these incidents and go back to what is called normal life. In this case going back to normalcy is accepting defeat.

How can this happen in public? Couldn´t the driver taken the bus to a police station ? The bus driver should be hand in glove. Arrest that bastard and he will spill everything.

Withdraw all VIP securities. How many MPs have been beated or robbed and how many of their female familiy members been raped. People come first, and the rich politicos can buy themselves protection.

Sheila Dickshit should have been fired long back and her govt. dismissed. Delhi Govt is a joke.

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:04 pm

[quote="Marathadi-Saamiyaar"]

truthbetold wrote:

Sheila Dickshit should have been fired long back and her govt. dismissed. Delhi Govt is a joke.

How will that help prevent crime? Who should be put in her place instead who will be a better CM?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:15 pm

kumarG time to stop being defensive. rape occurs everywhere in the world, no doubt. but you have to be blind to not see that the men of haryana, punjab, and delhi have a very particular problem with treating women like consumable goods. every time we hear of an atrocious case involving murder or debasement of women from india, there is a good chance that one of these regions is involved. it's time to stop being defensive and smell the coffee. wake up.

there is something really odd about these places, particularly the urban centers in these places. the women are expected to dress, act, and behave very "mod" (urban indian terminology for westernized) outwardly, and yet their men behave like the taliban towards them. what gives?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:28 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Sandee2020 wrote:Was the girl alone on the bus? No other passengers to stop this atrocity?

It wasn't a regular bus run. A bunch of scum (incl a bus driver) got drunk, went on a joy ride, picked up some fellow and robbed him, then chanced upon this girl and a friend waiting at a bus stop and suckered them into getting on board. So no, there were no other passengers.

the NY times is reporting that her boyfriend was with her and was also beaten senselessly. they were trying to return home after a movie. i suppose the delhi taliban who did this couldn't bear the sight of a "mod" girl out and about town with her boyfriend having a good time.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:32 pm

the government should do more. the law and order establishment should do more. but i see nobody here asking for a basic cultural change from the tri-state taliban (haryana + punjab + delhi). when will that happen and when will people start demanding that?

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:tasking for a basic cultural change ?

Now you are coming to the point. I completely agree with you here

by Kumarg Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:42 pm

...and to change the culture, the change has to begin at an 'individual' level

by truthbetold Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:31 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Rape of women in Delhi or any other place is not a human rights problem but law and order problem for which the Govt. is responsible.

Sevaji,
A rape is a law and order issue. But an ineffective govt leading to a widespread culture of rape forces women to change their behavior. Their ability to do grocery to go to work to enjoy outdoors with their male friends to wear bold dress were compromised. This is another form of denying people their natural as well as constitutional rights.

We are witnessing the capital of democratic India turning into a women's nightmare.

by Sponsored content