A disturbing aspect of Tamil history

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:29 pm

In 2004-05, since I ended up spending many days in Kanchi, I realised there was more to the town than sleaze, scandal and silk. The rich and hoary past finds an echo in the town’s broad municipal divisions of Siva Kanchi, Vishnu Kanchi, Buddha Kanchi and Jaina Kanchi—the last two mere ghosts now. Interestingly, the Siva Kanchi police station houses a nice 10th c Buddha seated in a mandapam, bestowed in 1992 by failed Veerappan hunter and dreaded police chief Walter Dewaram.

The trigger-happy Dewaram’s love for peace-loving Buddha can’t compensate for the bloody battles waged by Shaivite and Vaishnavite saints to decimate the sway of Buddhism and Jainism during and till the Pallava period (8th c).

Scholars and epigraphists are veering to the view that it is in Buddhist and Jain caves that the early Tamil Brahmi script took shape. Sculpture flourished. Buddha viharas and Jain basadis dotted the landscape. Hiuen Tsang, visiting in 640 CE, talks of a hundred viharas and over a thousand bhikkhus. The finest classics of Tamil literature were produced by Buddhists and Jains. Soon, Buddhism and Jainism jostled for royal and popular patronage. In round one, Jainism prevailed. Meanwhile, ‘Tamil Bhakti’, both Shaivite and Vaishnavite, ‘staked’ its claim, literally. Premised on fierce monotheistic devotion, the cults were nourished by the blood of sramanic monks impaled in public. Sambandar, the Shaivite saint, wrote songs exhorting the rape of Jain women. Periya Puranam, the 12th-century hagiography on Shaivite saints, says Sambandar was born to destroy Buddhism and Jainism and spread Shaivism. He did just that.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?284080

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:37 pm

My recent visit owed to Chennai photographer and filmmaker S. Anvar teaming up with Kanchipuram’s Buddhist enthusiast K. Mohanraj, our guide, to facilitate a day-long tour of Buddhist and Jain sites. Over centuries, Jain and Buddhist structures have morphed into temples for Vishnu, Siva, Vinayaka etc all over Tamil Nadu. The idols of Tirthankaras like Adinatha and Chandraprabha were replaced with lingas or Vaishnavite images. Tara Devi became Kamakshi. Buddha images (mostly defaced) got strewn around, and farmers stumbled upon them in fields.

As Nagappa Mudaliar did some hundred years ago, in Pallur on the Arakkonam road, unearthing three majestic 6th c granite Buddhas. He and the village folk kept vigil for decades. Ten years ago, a shelter was raised with help from Thai Buddhists. Malliga, the woman who opens the gates for us, has cropped white hair announcing her widowhood. Her voice and painted toenails suggest a zest for life. She said her husband discovered the Buddhas as a 10-year-old. If he died five years ago at age 105, how old was she? “I’m 63 now. He married me when he was 61 and I was 13.”

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?284080

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:39 pm

http://hemanththiru.blogspot.com/2012/12/sambandar-impalement-religious.html

by Rishi Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:01 pm

Rashmun,

S. Anand is a self loathing Tamil Brahmin who converted to Christianity 10 years ago. He can't be at peace until all Hindus in India convert.

by Rishi Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:24 pm

“I’m 63 now. He married me when he was 61 and I was 13.”

For me, this is the most disturbing stuff. This marriage took place 48 years ago, in 1965.

It is really hard to believe that this marriage even took place.

Nagappa Mudaliar was really a man without any conscience.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:47 pm

Rashmun wrote:In 2004-05, since I ended up spending many days in Kanchi, I realised there was more to the town than sleaze, scandal and silk. The rich and hoary past finds an echo in the town’s broad municipal divisions of Siva Kanchi, Vishnu Kanchi, Buddha Kanchi and Jaina Kanchi—the last two mere ghosts now. Interestingly, the Siva Kanchi police station houses a nice 10th c Buddha seated in a mandapam, bestowed in 1992 by failed Veerappan hunter and dreaded police chief Walter Dewaram.

The trigger-happy Dewaram’s love for peace-loving Buddha can’t compensate for the bloody battles waged by Shaivite and Vaishnavite saints to decimate the sway of Buddhism and Jainism during and till the Pallava period (8th c).

Scholars and epigraphists are veering to the view that it is in Buddhist and Jain caves that the early Tamil Brahmi script took shape. Sculpture flourished. Buddha viharas and Jain basadis dotted the landscape. Hiuen Tsang, visiting in 640 CE, talks of a hundred viharas and over a thousand bhikkhus. The finest classics of Tamil literature were produced by Buddhists and Jains. Soon, Buddhism and Jainism jostled for royal and popular patronage. In round one, Jainism prevailed. Meanwhile, ‘Tamil Bhakti’, both Shaivite and Vaishnavite, ‘staked’ its claim, literally. Premised on fierce monotheistic devotion, the cults were nourished by the blood of sramanic monks impaled in public. Sambandar, the Shaivite saint, wrote songs exhorting the rape of Jain women. Periya Puranam, the 12th-century hagiography on Shaivite saints, says Sambandar was born to destroy Buddhism and Jainism and spread Shaivism. He did just that.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?284080

sambandar was a tamil brahmin and according to you tamil brahmins are originally from UP. maybe his ancestors brought the UP culture of impaling other religionists into TN. that is the likely explanation if we have to stay consistent with your beliefs.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:In 2004-05, since I ended up spending many days in Kanchi, I realised there was more to the town than sleaze, scandal and silk. The rich and hoary past finds an echo in the town’s broad municipal divisions of Siva Kanchi, Vishnu Kanchi, Buddha Kanchi and Jaina Kanchi—the last two mere ghosts now. Interestingly, the Siva Kanchi police station houses a nice 10th c Buddha seated in a mandapam, bestowed in 1992 by failed Veerappan hunter and dreaded police chief Walter Dewaram.

The trigger-happy Dewaram’s love for peace-loving Buddha can’t compensate for the bloody battles waged by Shaivite and Vaishnavite saints to decimate the sway of Buddhism and Jainism during and till the Pallava period (8th c).

Scholars and epigraphists are veering to the view that it is in Buddhist and Jain caves that the early Tamil Brahmi script took shape. Sculpture flourished. Buddha viharas and Jain basadis dotted the landscape. Hiuen Tsang, visiting in 640 CE, talks of a hundred viharas and over a thousand bhikkhus. The finest classics of Tamil literature were produced by Buddhists and Jains. Soon, Buddhism and Jainism jostled for royal and popular patronage. In round one, Jainism prevailed. Meanwhile, ‘Tamil Bhakti’, both Shaivite and Vaishnavite, ‘staked’ its claim, literally. Premised on fierce monotheistic devotion, the cults were nourished by the blood of sramanic monks impaled in public. Sambandar, the Shaivite saint, wrote songs exhorting the rape of Jain women. Periya Puranam, the 12th-century hagiography on Shaivite saints, says Sambandar was born to destroy Buddhism and Jainism and spread Shaivism. He did just that.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?284080

sambandar was a tamil brahmin and according to you tamil brahmins are originally from UP. maybe his ancestors brought the UP culture of impaling other religionists into TN. that is the likely explanation if we have to stay consistent with your beliefs.

First, I have never said that tamil Brahmins were immigrants from UP; I did say that they were immigrants from (all over) North India. Second, in all probability, it was Sambandar's ancestors who were the immigrants and not the S-man himself.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:56 pm

right that's what i'm saying too. his UP origin ancestors schooled him in the impaling arts.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:right that's what i'm saying too. his UP origin ancestors schooled him in the impaling arts.

Not if his ancestor who migrated to TN from anywhere in NI ( including present day Pakistan) was several generations removed from him.

There can be no getting away from the fact that Budhists and Jains were persecuted in TN. With Sambandar's encouragement the tamil king, whose confidence S- man had earned, massacred thousands of Jain monks. The tamil king who carried out this criminal action deserves the strongest condemnation. This action of the tamil king makes all Indians hang their head in shame.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:11 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambandar

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:14 pm

there was no democracy called india when sambandar demonstrated his impaling prowess. 1992 on the other hand was 45 years post independence from the british if you get my drift.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:16 pm

In the first half of the seventh century A.D. the worship of Śiva Was at its lowest ebb, overpowered by the Jainism and Buddhism which prevailed throughout the Tamil country. But a few pious Śaivites remained faithful. One of them, whose name means that his heart was laid at Śiva's foot, and who lived in the town in the Tanjore District now known as Shiyāli, prayed to the Śiva worshipped in the Shiyāli temple that he might be given a son who would dispel the godless dark and win men to Lord Śiva again. Sambandar's birth was the answer to that prayer. At the tender age of three, so orthodox Śaivites believe, this child was fed by Sivas spouse with milk from her divine breast, mingled with divine wisdom, whence he is called in his full name, "The man connected with wisdom divine," Tiru Jñāna Sambandar.

He grew up to be a pilgrim poet, who visited most of the Śaivite shrines with which South India abounds, in each place singing the praise of the Śiva whom there he worshipped. The cause he loved suffered a severe blow when the great king of Madura, with many of his subjects, went over to the Jain religion. The queen-consort and her prime minister (see stanzas 20 and 21) remained faithful to Śaivism, and sent for Sambandar.

p. 11

[paragraph continues] The lonely saint faced a vast multitude of Jains in the royal presence, conquered them in argument, and reconverted the king. Eight thousand of the stubborn Jains, with Sambandar's consent, were impaled alive. Later on, after a similar adventure in another of the three great kingdoms of the Tamil country of his time, Sambandar converted to Śaivism a crowd of Buddhist opponents.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/htss/htss03.htm

by bw Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:18 pm

rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there was no democracy called india when sambandar demonstrated his impaling prowess. 1992 on the other hand was 45 years post independence from the british if you get my drift.

The vast majority of Kar Sevaks had been imported into UP by the saffron brigade. Many people from all over India, including Tamils , gave donations to the saffron brigade for constructing a magnificent temple at the precise location of where the mosque stood.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:25 pm

bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max has fallen hook, line and sinker.

I have been having discussions with Max for seven or eight years now. I would submit that we have both learnt from each other.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:28 pm

bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

by bw Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:35 pm

bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

by bw Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:37 pm

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

oh, that i am married to someone from multan? feel free to reveal it.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:38 pm

bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

oh, that i am married to someone from multan? feel free to reveal it.

That's not all.

by Rishi Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:45 pm

Sambandar, the Shaivite saint, wrote songs exhorting the rape of Jain women. Periya Puranam, the 12th-century hagiography on Shaivite saints, says Sambandar was born to destroy Buddhism and Jainism and spread Shaivism. He did just that.

Should he be revered today?

I don't think so.

by bw Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:45 pm

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

oh, that i am married to someone from multan? feel free to reveal it.

That's not all.

feel free to reveal whatever.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:47 pm

bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:

are you threatening me?

i have never talked to you on chat - what was your id there?

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

oh, that i am married to someone from multan? feel free to reveal it.

That's not all.

feel free to reveal whatever.

I have my own code of ethics. Besides, I have known Huzefa Kapasi since 1998 and am obliged to honor his request.

by Guest Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:54 pm

Rishi wrote:Sambandar, the Shaivite saint, wrote songs exhorting the rape of Jain women. Periya Puranam, the 12th-century hagiography on Shaivite saints, says Sambandar was born to destroy Buddhism and Jainism and spread Shaivism. He did just that.

Should he be revered today?

I don't think so.

He is one of the sixty three Nayanars, the Tamil Saiva Bhakti saints. It would be interesting to know the views of the other Nayanars on Budhists and Jains.

by b_A Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:07 am

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Your old friend Huzefa Kapasi was around at the time. In fact we discussed this issue once before in forum posts when Huzefa confirmed that what I was saying was true. Huzefa requested me not to make your personal details public since you had shared them with us in good faith.

I was using different ID's on chat and don't remember the ID I was using when chatting with you. But if you have any doubts whatsoever, please contact Huzefa Kapasi in this matter.

oh, that i am married to someone from multan? feel free to reveal it.

That's not all.

feel free to reveal whatever.

I have my own code of ethics. Besides, I have known Huzefa Kapasi since 1998 and am obliged to honor his request.

This reveals more about your character than anything else. How can you even talk about ethics with a straight face? Your own code of ethics? Yeah right.

by Hellsangel Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:39 am

b_A wrote:

This reveals more about your character than anything else. How can you even talk about ethics with a straight face? Your own code of ethics? Yeah right.

This veiled threat reminds me of a living waste of tax payer money who whined about layers of deception.

by b_A Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:53 am

Hellsangel wrote:
b_A wrote:

This reveals more about your character than anything else. How can you even talk about ethics with a straight face? Your own code of ethics? Yeah right.

This veiled threat reminds me of a living waste of tax payer money who whined about layers of deception.

These days, they are sharing tactics, notes and god knows what else.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:24 am

Hellsangel wrote:
b_A wrote:

This reveals more about your character than anything else. How can you even talk about ethics with a straight face? Your own code of ethics? Yeah right.

This veiled threat reminds me of a living waste of tax payer money who whined about layers of deception.

In my opinion you should emulate my example of not revealing private information of other posters. I have set a fine example, in my opinion, for the likes of you to follow.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:45 am

i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

by Rishi Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:21 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

I think you will have to ask S. Anand, the Tamil Brahmin who became a Christian the exact verse number you are seeking. He is the one who claimed Sambandar wrote those verses.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:22 am

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:rashmun strikes gold after a period of lull.

max falls hook, line and sinker.

On another note, I think the fact that I have kept all the personal details about yourself which you revealed to me on chat to myself should be appreciated by everyone. Had I wanted to embarrass you I could have easily done so, but I refuse to stoop to that low level.

Wow! What a jerk! Everyone knows a little more about everyone else in chat. Not revealing those details on the forum or to anyone else is basic courtesy, not some high level of morality. It's a given. To believe that you are doing a favor to the other and to pat yourself on your back for your moral high standards in not doing so says a lot about your own character. And you do that to blackmail the other whenever they criticize or question you. Ironically, you believe and trumpet the grandeur of your own moral high standards while doing so. You are either delusional or an out and out jerk.

PS: Now that i criticized you, go ahead and bring up bittu and stoop down all the way to the bottomless pit.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:23 am

Rishi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

I think you will have to ask S. Anand, the Tamil Brahmin Christian convert the exact verse number you are seeking. He is the one who claimed Sambandar wrote those verses.

but the guy who posted here thinks anand is right. so one would assume he has taken the time to verify it since he has vomited it here.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:26 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

Truth is bitter Max. There are numerous online references about Sambandar and just because he was a good poet does not exonerate him.
Outlook magazine, which had an article which mentioned Sambandar's exhortation to rape Jain women, is a national magazine and there is no reason for it to make up shit about Sambandar.

In my opinion you are now indulging in slander for two reasons. First, your thamizh pride has been hurt. Second, by slandering me you hope to ...

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:31 am

<<'and from his days the Buddhists and Jains disappear from South Indian history'

<<Your above statement is true. However a careful historical study reveals certain <<shocking fact that he was the root cause for the massacre of 8000 Jains or the <<Dravidians by the pointed stake (kazhuvetral) in the name of religion.

<<Also he sings,

<<'Saakkiya peyaman pengalai karpazhikka thiru vullamae'

<<(Seeking God for raping the Jain women.)

<<So here we see Sampanthar seeking God's help to rape Jain Women. Thus as a <<young woman I cannot understand how anyone can consider Sampanthar even as a <<spiritual leader!

--------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meykandar/message/561

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:33 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

Truth is bitter Max. There are numerous online references about Sambandar and just because he was a good poet does not exonerate him.
Outlook magazine, which had an article which mentioned Sambandar's exhortation to rape Jain women, is a national magazine and there is no reason for it to make up shit about Sambandar.

In my opinion you are now indulging in slander for two reasons. First, your thamizh pride has been hurt. Second, by slandering me you hope to ...

none of them offer any specifics. until you produce the actual verses or at least the verse numbers that refer to the rape of jain women you will not be taken seriously. the text of all that sambandar wrote is easily available on the internet and print, but they are voluminous. so it is up to the person making the charge to provide the verses or the verse numbers. until then you are a shameful slanderer.

newspapers and media outlets are known to make horrific mistakes, even make up stuff. not even the new york times is exempt from lapses like that. so i will continue to insist that you and the original author are nothing but slanderers.

by Rishi Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:35 am

Looks like Sambandar was like Richard Wagner, the great German composer who was also an anti-semite.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:35 am

Rishi wrote:Looks like Sambandar was like Richard Wagner, the great German composer who was also an anti-semite.

don't be so malleable and naive. don't yield to bull shit.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:36 am

i am willing to admit i am wrong if i am shown i am wrong. sambandar was after all human despite what his hagiography says, but i don't believe this jain women rape thing.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:37 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have read the sambandar thevaram in parts and though i have no desire to engage with rashmun in an endless and pointless back and forth, i have an academic curiosity about this. sambandar's thevaram is some of the most melting poetry i have read. i'm interested in knowing the exact verses that refer to rape of jain women. i do have the entire text of sambandar's thevaram and if the verse numbers are pointed out it would be a simple matter for me to look them up. until then i'll just treat this as the usual rashmunian slander-cut-and-paste-vomit.

Truth is bitter Max. There are numerous online references about Sambandar and just because he was a good poet does not exonerate him.
Outlook magazine, which had an article which mentioned Sambandar's exhortation to rape Jain women, is a national magazine and there is no reason for it to make up shit about Sambandar.

In my opinion you are now indulging in slander for two reasons. First, your thamizh pride has been hurt. Second, by slandering me you hope to ...

none of them offer any specifics. until you produce the actual verses or at least the verse numbers that refer to the rape of jain women you will not be taken seriously. the text of all that sambandar wrote is easily available on the internet and print, but they are voluminous. so it is up to the person making the charge to provide the verses or the verse numbers. until then you are a shameful slanderer.

I just gave the actual verse in my previous post. This is from a discussion in which an orthodox tamil Hindu defends Sampandar but this orthodox Hindu does not dispute the fact that Sampandar actually wrote the verse exhorting the rape of Jain women.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:39 am

I think one reason for Max's peevishness is that Sampandar was from Thanjavur.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:40 am

Rashmun wrote:<<'and from his days the Buddhists and Jains disappear from South Indian history'

<<Your above statement is true. However a careful historical study reveals certain <<shocking fact that he was the root cause for the massacre of 8000 Jains or the <<Dravidians by the pointed stake (kazhuvetral) in the name of religion.

<<Also he sings,

<<'Saakkiya peyaman pengalai karpazhikka thiru vullamae'

<<(Seeking God for raping the Jain women.)

<<So here we see Sampanthar seeking God's help to rape Jain Women. Thus as a <<young woman I cannot understand how anyone can consider Sampanthar even as a <<spiritual leader!

--------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meykandar/message/561

Max, I think you missed seeing the above post.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:51 am

yes i missed it. i will look into it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:58 am

here is the complete version of thirumurai in tamil script and in romanized script (http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru13.html). i did a search on the romanized version of the thirumurai using ctrl-F. i couldn't find the aforementioned verse. if he actually said what is being claimed, it must be outside the thirumurai. do you know where this line occurs?

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:04 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the complete version of thirumurai in tamil script and in romanized script (http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru13.html). i did a search on the romanized version of the thirumurai using ctrl-F. i couldn't find the aforementioned verse. if he actually said what is being claimed, it must be outside the thirumurai. do you know where this line occurs?

No I don't. I will point out though that the possibility of someone removing this line from the thirumurai (before uploading it to their site) should not be ruled out.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:06 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the complete version of thirumurai in tamil script and in romanized script (http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru13.html). i did a search on the romanized version of the thirumurai using ctrl-F. i couldn't find the aforementioned verse. if he actually said what is being claimed, it must be outside the thirumurai. do you know where this line occurs?

No I don't. I will point out though that the possibility of someone removing this line from the thirumurai (before uploading it to their site) should not be ruled out.

even if it was excised as you seem to suggest, this person who posted that line found it did he not, so why is he not providing a proper reference?

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:12 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the complete version of thirumurai in tamil script and in romanized script (http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru13.html). i did a search on the romanized version of the thirumurai using ctrl-F. i couldn't find the aforementioned verse. if he actually said what is being claimed, it must be outside the thirumurai. do you know where this line occurs?

No I don't. I will point out though that the possibility of someone removing this line from the thirumurai (before uploading it to their site) should not be ruled out.

even if it was excised as you seem to suggest, this person who posted that line found it did he not, so why is he not providing a proper reference?

The person who posted it may be having access to a hard copy version of the book.Also, she is arguing with an orthodox tamil Hindu who does not dispute the fact that Sambandar wrote about raping Jain women. He tries to defend Sampandar on the ground that the Jains were the original instigators of the conflict. Both sides agree that Sampandar did in fact exhort the raping of Jain women.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:16 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the complete version of thirumurai in tamil script and in romanized script (http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thiru13.html). i did a search on the romanized version of the thirumurai using ctrl-F. i couldn't find the aforementioned verse. if he actually said what is being claimed, it must be outside the thirumurai. do you know where this line occurs?

No I don't. I will point out though that the possibility of someone removing this line from the thirumurai (before uploading it to their site) should not be ruled out.

even if it was excised as you seem to suggest, this person who posted that line found it did he not, so why is he not providing a proper reference?

The person who posted it may be having access to a hard copy version of the book.Also, she is arguing with an orthodox tamil Hindu who does not dispute the fact that Sambandar wrote about raping Jain women. He tries to defend Sampandar on the ground that the Jains were the original instigators of the conflict. Both sides agree that Sampandar did in fact exhort the raping of Jain women.

i have a hard copy version of the book and the text is the same as the one i linked to. an informal internet discussion cannot be cited as proof of something. this is a serious claim that is being made based on written evidence from the poetry of one of the hallowed figures in tamil bhakti poetry. nothing short of an actual reference to a verse number and proper context will do. i have the text, so give me the exact number of the verse and where it occurs in the thirumurai and i will look it up.

by Rishi Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:22 pm

http://www.jainworld.com/society/jainevents/GJE2003/a%20word%20about%20samanatham.htm

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:24 pm

sometimes these internet discussions take on a life of their own. a new york daily news reporter once posted something as a joke about chuck hagel (that he took campaign funds from the hamas) and the republicans couldn't tell a joke from a serious post. it took on a life of its own and during his confirmation hearings the republicans made asses of themselves.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:26 pm

Rishi wrote:http://www.jainworld.com/society/jainevents/GJE2003/a%20word%20about%20samanatham.htm

the claim here is that he wrote verses encouraging the raping of jain women. where in the thirumurai does that verse occur?

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