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Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
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FluteHolder
SomeProfile
Kris
Uppili
8 posters
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Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
No FIRs against him
No cases..
No convictions
None of the commissions and committees have come up with anything.
People - including muslims - have voted him to power three times.
And yet, the so-called secularists who swear by the constitution and supposedly jump to the rescue of anyone falsely accused are the ones who are out to go after him forever and ever until some judge somewhere sometime convicts him.
Innocent Guilty until proven guilty innocent - the secularist slogan.
No cases..
No convictions
None of the commissions and committees have come up with anything.
People - including muslims - have voted him to power three times.
And yet, the so-called secularists who swear by the constitution and supposedly jump to the rescue of anyone falsely accused are the ones who are out to go after him forever and ever until some judge somewhere sometime convicts him.
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Uppili wrote:No FIRs against him
No cases..
No convictions
None of the commissions and committees have come up with anything.
People - including muslims - have voted him to power three times.
And yet, the so-called secularists who swear by the constitution and supposedly jump to the rescue of anyone falsely accused are the ones who are out to go after him forever and ever until some judge somewhere sometime convicts him.InnocentGuilty until provenguiltyinnocent - the secularist slogan.
>>>> I don't know-- but my gut feel says this guy is not on the up and up, but I also find the press and his opposition disingenuous ( see my other post)
Kris- Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
I also think he knew what was going on. All CMs - that too in India - know whats going on all the time, what with their goon cadres at every street corner keeping a watch on the public.
But that is a different matter.
Until Modi is charged, tried, and convicted - he should not be punished by the "secular fundamentalists"
But that is a different matter.
Until Modi is charged, tried, and convicted - he should not be punished by the "secular fundamentalists"
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Kris wrote:
>>>> I don't know-- but my gut feel says this guy is not on the up and up, but I also find the press and his opposition disingenuous ( see my other post)
Fortunately, "gut feel" has extremely limited value in judicial proceedings. The whole point of this thread is that he has not been convicted by the judiciary. Why bring "gut feel" into this discussion?
SomeProfile- Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
SomeProfile wrote:Kris wrote:
>>>> I don't know-- but my gut feel says this guy is not on the up and up, but I also find the press and his opposition disingenuous ( see my other post)
Fortunately, "gut feel" has extremely limited value in judicial proceedings. The whole point of this thread is that he has not been convicted by the judiciary. Why bring "gut feel" into this discussion?
Welcome back, Propa.
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Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Just curious, why no one cried/complained about our dubya when he waged war against Iraq on the pretext of WMDs and what international agencies have done against him? Worlds most advanced country with so much intelligence made a blunder on WMDs under Dubya, he was/is not held accountable. On what category this crime should be looked under? And yet, he lives under great protection and probably getting $s for his speech/visit? Does HRW has any charges/complaints against him?
FluteHolder- Posts : 2355
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
The answer, thanks to a quick consult with Googlacharya, is yes. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/5.5.htmFluteHolder wrote:Just curious, why no one cried/complained about our dubya when he waged war against Iraq on the pretext of WMDs and what international agencies have done against him? Worlds most advanced country with so much intelligence made a blunder on WMDs under Dubya, he was/is not held accountable. On what category this crime should be looked under? And yet, he lives under great protection and probably getting $s for his speech/visit? Does HRW has any charges/complaints against him?
All these counterexamples of "crimes other people committed" as evidence of the innocence of Modi are not to the point at all.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
Here is something you might find interesting. It is a thread about claims that Modi and his administration actively encouraged and supported rioters. I quoted these claims from a rioter himself on old CH:
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Here is something you might find interesting. It is a thread about claims that Modi and his administration actively encouraged and supported rioters. I quoted these claims from a rioter himself on old CH:
Uppili-of-six-years-ago replied:carvaka on old CH at http://newshopper.sulekha.com/politics_sting-op-nails--butcher-of-naroda-patiya---120961.htm wrote:Here are a couple more interesting quotes:
Bajrangi goes on to claim that he phoned the then Home Minister Gordhan Zadaphiya to tell him about the killings and ‘sort out the matter. “He just asked me flee from Gujarat,” Bajrangi tells the reporter.
The Shiv Sena leader, who shared a dais with Uddhav Thackeray recently, claimed that when Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi was told of the massacre at Naroda Patiya he called him up for doing a ‘fantastic job’. “Modi helped me hide in Mount Abu for several days after the riots,” he said.
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
panileni paparao wrote:
All these counterexamples of "crimes other people committed" as evidence of the innocence of Modi are not to the point at all.
Right.... what evidence you have against Modi to prove his complicity?
If you have pliss to send it to Mt Sonia Mata.
If you don't have any evidence, is it alright in your book to call him a criminal?
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Welcome back, SP. I hope all is well.SomeProfile wrote:Kris wrote:
>>>> I don't know-- but my gut feel says this guy is not on the up and up, but I also find the press and his opposition disingenuous ( see my other post)
Fortunately, "gut feel" has extremely limited value in judicial proceedings. The whole point of this thread is that he has not been convicted by the judiciary. Why bring "gut feel" into this discussion?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
I am not calling him a criminal, so that is a strawman. I am pretty precise in my allegations against him. There is evidence for all those accusations in the public domain. Even Uppili-of-six-years-ago believed those allegations completely.Uppili wrote:If you don't have any evidence, is it alright in your book to call him a criminal?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
So what punishment has been meted out to Modiji unfairly thus far?Uppili wrote:Until Modi is charged, tried, and convicted - he should not be punished by the "secular fundamentalists"
You "totally believed" six years ago the allegation that Modi congratulated rioters for doing a "fantastic job," and that his government helped rioters hide out until things cooled down. In other words, you "totally believed" that Modi and his government committed crimes. As you admitted back then, the problem was not one of guilt, but one of prosecution. So what exactly are you trying to do, defending a person that you "totally believed" is guilty?
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
panileni paparao wrote:The answer, thanks to a quick consult with Googlacharya, is yes. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/5.5.htmFluteHolder wrote:Just curious, why no one cried/complained about our dubya when he waged war against Iraq on the pretext of WMDs and what international agencies have done against him? Worlds most advanced country with so much intelligence made a blunder on WMDs under Dubya, he was/is not held accountable. On what category this crime should be looked under? And yet, he lives under great protection and probably getting $s for his speech/visit? Does HRW has any charges/complaints against him?
All these counterexamples of "crimes other people committed" as evidence of the innocence of Modi are not to the point at all.
>>
It is interesting that the article you posted never mention GW Bush. (search for 'bush' came negative in that article page).
Like Upps saying, no court/law enforcement agency so far able to find Modi guilty..
FluteHolder- Posts : 2355
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
OK, here you go.FluteHolder wrote:panileni paparao wrote:The answer, thanks to a quick consult with Googlacharya, is yes. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/5.5.htmFluteHolder wrote:Just curious, why no one cried/complained about our dubya when he waged war against Iraq on the pretext of WMDs and what international agencies have done against him? Worlds most advanced country with so much intelligence made a blunder on WMDs under Dubya, he was/is not held accountable. On what category this crime should be looked under? And yet, he lives under great protection and probably getting $s for his speech/visit? Does HRW has any charges/complaints against him?
All these counterexamples of "crimes other people committed" as evidence of the innocence of Modi are not to the point at all.
>>
It is interesting that the article you posted never mention GW Bush. (search for 'bush' came negative in that article page).
Like Upps saying, no court/law enforcement agency so far able to find Modi guilty..
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2011/07/12/getting-away-torture-0
This 107-page report presents substantial information warranting criminal investigations of Bush and senior administration officials, including former Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and CIA Director George Tenet, for ordering practices such as “waterboarding,” the use of secret CIA prisons, and the transfer of detainees to countries where they were tortured.
Hope that helps.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how? [/quote]panileni paparao wrote:
If you don't see my point, then you win.
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
People not supporting him politically is a free exercise of their political rights, based on their personal opinions of what happened in Gujarat. That is not judicial punishment. Judicial punishment is tied to due process of trial with the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty. You can't expect to shut people up from talking about Modi's complicity in the Gujarat riots citing a lack of conviction any more than Congress can shut people up from talking about corruption just because nobody has been convicted in the 2G or Bofors scams.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
panileni paparao wrote:People not supporting him politically is a free exercise of their political rights, based on their personal opinions of what happened in Gujarat. That is not judicial punishment. Judicial punishment is tied to due process of trial with the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty. You can't expect to shut people up from talking about Modi's complicity in the Gujarat riots citing a lack of conviction any more than Congress can shut people up from talking about corruption just because nobody has been convicted in the 2G or Bofors scams.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
We can't shut people up and we wouldn't want to shut them up, but here's where I have a problem with all the anti-Modi rhetoric: Most of it is similar to Rashmunni's arguments in its shrillness, lack of logic, lack of proper proof, speculation, and at times, amazing leap of faith. In other words, it looks like the conclusions were drawn first, and then people went in search of sources and connections to support their conclusions. Just like Rashmunni does.
Also, Modi is held to a much higher standard than any other political leader in the country past or present. The same people who express outrage against Modi's comments, actions, lack of actions, do not feel or express the same outrage against other politicians. Normally, this would be okay. But we are in a situation where Modi will be pitted against these same politicians. The least we could do is evaluate them all with same yardstick.
SomeProfile- Posts : 1863
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
I am all for evaluating our politicians with the same yardstick. I know I certainly endeavor to do that.SomeProfile wrote:panileni paparao wrote:People not supporting him politically is a free exercise of their political rights, based on their personal opinions of what happened in Gujarat. That is not judicial punishment. Judicial punishment is tied to due process of trial with the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty. You can't expect to shut people up from talking about Modi's complicity in the Gujarat riots citing a lack of conviction any more than Congress can shut people up from talking about corruption just because nobody has been convicted in the 2G or Bofors scams.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
We can't shut people up and we wouldn't want to shut them up, but here's where I have a problem with all the anti-Modi rhetoric: Most of it is similar to Rashmunni's arguments in its shrillness, lack of logic, lack of proper proof, speculation, and at times, amazing leap of faith. In other words, it looks like the conclusions were drawn first, and then people went in search of sources and connections to support their conclusions. Just like Rashmunni does.
Also, Modi is held to a much higher standard than any other political leader in the country past or present. The same people who express outrage against Modi's comments, actions, lack of actions, do not feel or express the same outrage against other politicians. Normally, this would be okay. But we are in a situation where Modi will be pitted against these same politicians. The least we could do is evaluate them all with same yardstick.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
panileni paparao wrote:People not supporting him politically is a free exercise of their political rights, based on their personal opinions of what happened in Gujarat. That is not judicial punishment. Judicial punishment is tied to due process of trial with the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty. You can't expect to shut people up from talking about Modi's complicity in the Gujarat riots citing a lack of conviction any more than Congress can shut people up from talking about corruption just because nobody has been convicted in the 2G or Bofors scams.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
You are contradicting yourself. How do you establish complicity without proof? At best you can say "modi's possible complicity" in which case boycotting him is punishing him. it is those who dislike Modi preventing the ones who like him from hearing Modi. In other words the free speech and freedom loving "secularists" are a bunch of hypocrites, and they dont even know what they stand for.
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
You are confused; let me illustrate this. When you said you "totally believed" that Modi committed the crime of helping a rioter abscond from the police and hide out in Mount Abu, did you conduct your own investigation beforehand? Or were you then a secularist and therefore hypocritically judged him to be guilty before a court told you that you are allowed to say what you said? Hope that helps clarify your confusion.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:People not supporting him politically is a free exercise of their political rights, based on their personal opinions of what happened in Gujarat. That is not judicial punishment. Judicial punishment is tied to due process of trial with the presumption of innocence unless proven guilty. You can't expect to shut people up from talking about Modi's complicity in the Gujarat riots citing a lack of conviction any more than Congress can shut people up from talking about corruption just because nobody has been convicted in the 2G or Bofors scams.Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:He is innocent until proven guilty in any court of law where he is tried. I wouldn't want him to be punished by law unless duly convicted. Are you claiming that he is being punished right now? If so, how?
He is not ? People boycotting him citing Gujarat riots is just that.... According to you he is punished only if he is jailed.
Basically he is on a suspended sentence.
You are contradicting yourself. How do you establish complicity without proof? At best you can say "modi's possible complicity" in which case boycotting him is punishing him. it is those who dislike Modi preventing the ones who like him from hearing Modi. In other words the free speech and freedom loving "secularists" are a bunch of hypocrites, and they dont even know what they stand for.
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Kris wrote:
>>>> I don't know-- but my gut feel says this guy is not on the up and up, but I also find the press and his opposition disingenuous ( see my other post)
Fortunately, "gut feel" has extremely limited value in judicial proceedings.
>>>Agreed.
The whole point of this thread is that he has not been convicted by the judiciary. Why bring "gut feel" into this discussion
>>>The gut feel thing comes up since in the end game of electability, it does matter.
Kris- Posts : 5460
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Bwahahaha...
Merlot Daruwala- Posts : 5005
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Bwahahaha...
ok...easy ...now...easy....Islamist loyal attack dog....take it easy.
Uppili- Posts : 278
Join date : 2011-05-09
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Looks like you are not recognizing the fukularistic tactic to "win" in a debate. To kill a cobra, they use two sticks - one to divert the attention so that with the other stick you can kill!
Vakavaka Pakapaka- Posts : 7611
Join date : 2012-08-24
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
Guruvu-gaaru, why are you calling Uppili a snake? Also, a dharma sandeham: are you calling today's Uppili a snake as well, when you call Uppili-of-six-years-ago a snake?Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Looks like you are not recognizing the fukularistic tactic to "win" in a debate. To kill a cobra, they use two sticks - one to divert the attention so that with the other stick you can kill!
Idéfix- Posts : 8808
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : Berkeley, CA
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
trofimov wrote:...Uppili-of-six-years-ago...
Are we venturing into time travel now?
Hellsangel- Posts : 14721
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Modi - Guilty until proven innocent forever.
trofimov wrote:Guruvu-gaaru, why are you calling Uppili a snake? Also, a dharma sandeham: are you calling today's Uppili a snake as well, when you call Uppili-of-six-years-ago a snake?Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Uppili wrote:panileni paparao wrote:Uppili, did you ever get a chance to meet Uppili-of-six-years ago on old CH?
I totally believe all these and I remember reading these even 5 years back. I don't have have the slightest doubt that Modi, at the very least - looked the other way at least for the initial 3 days. The problem is the practical question of prosecuting.
Was Uppili-of-six-years-ago a so-called secularist?
Looks like I have no changed my views at all. Look at my response to Kris in which I have stated I do think he was fully aware of what was going on. So he must have looked the other way.
But, isn't he innocent until proven guilty ?
If you don't see my point, then you win.
Looks like you are not recognizing the fukularistic tactic to "win" in a debate. To kill a cobra, they use two sticks - one to divert the attention so that with the other stick you can kill!
This must be another fukularistic tactic!
Vakavaka Pakapaka- Posts : 7611
Join date : 2012-08-24
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