Couldn't resist this...

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:18 am

For the dewy-eyed, who believe that a crowd of 10,000 gathered with the express purpose of witnessing their leader enter a fast unto death will remain peaceful as that fellow goes faint, here's an educative post-script to the Ramdev circus that should hopefully be an eye-opener.

While reports came in that Baba Ramdev had been admitted and was under medical care, the yagyashala was turned into a prayer meeting for Ramdev's recovery. Devotees were directed to chant the gayatri mantra for his early recovery. But a handful of men and women, an estimated 100 odd people, decided to take their protest beyond the Yogpeet boundary on to the steets. They burnt effigies and blocked the main road connecting Hardwar and Delhi, performing a yagya at the centre of the road. The state police were present there in case there was a law and order problem.

Of course, true believers will probably never let something published by a rag like the Economic Times challenge their most cherished notions about how large groups of protesters behave, but atleast I tried.

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:45 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:For the dewy-eyed, who believe that a crowd of 10,000 gathered with the express purpose of witnessing their leader enter a fast unto death will remain peaceful as that fellow goes faint, here's an educative post-script to the Ramdev circus that should hopefully be an eye-opener.

While reports came in that Baba Ramdev had been admitted and was under medical care, the yagyashala was turned into a prayer meeting for Ramdev's recovery. Devotees were directed to chant the gayatri mantra for his early recovery. But a handful of men and women, an estimated 100 odd people, decided to take their protest beyond the Yogpeet boundary on to the steets. They burnt effigies and blocked the main road connecting Hardwar and Delhi, performing a yagya at the centre of the road. The state police were present there in case there was a law and order problem.

Of course, true believers will probably never let something published by a rag like the Economic Times challenge their most cherished notions about how large groups of protesters behave, but atleast I tried.

Did the police lathi charge the crowd? Or perhaps they just waited until the dead of the night to carry out their operation... no? After all, this crowd was more violent than the one in Ramlila Maidan.

BTW, the police should give me a whole bunch of tickets for bad driving. I tend to drive rashly, and they know it, and I know they know. So the best way to deal with it is for them to give me a whole bunch of tickets right now. And beat me while they are at it!

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:52 am

Haha..keep at it, wood-for-trees man. I try to show you how even a 100-person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra as instructed, and you go off-tangent abt police action which didn't happen.

But like I said in my post, nothing can be done of true believers.

by truthbetold Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:22 am

Merlot wrote:
" I try to show you how even a 100-person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra as instructed,"

So even a 100 person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra, Govt should assume the right to launch a midnight strike with tear gas cover. Saudi Arabia would be amused to hear that kind of preemptive logic.

by Guest Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:30 am

truthbetold wrote:Merlot wrote:
" I try to show you how even a 100-person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra as instructed,"

So even a 100 person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra, Govt should assume the right to launch a midnight strike with tear gas cover. Saudi Arabia would be amused to hear that kind of preemptive logic.

the problem arises when swamis and gurus start engaging in political rhetoric and make a deliberate attempt to whip up emotional frenzy in their fanatical followers. if it would have been a maulvi or maulana doing the same thing i think some people on this forum may have been more appreciative of the govt. action.

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:15 am

Rashmun wrote:if it would have been a maulvi or maulana doing the same thing i think some people on this forum may have been more appreciative of the govt. action.

No, the draw of political correctness overwhelms even strong, visceral communal prejudices, atleast when it comes to online debates. I recall having this same argument with Ponniyin Selvan, who was staunchly anti-Muslim but still believed some rabble-rousing Mullah's right to incite mobs was more important than the rights of the citizenry at the receiving end of the violence.

I wonder if that fellow still subscribes to such exotic fetishes now that he's back in des.

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:27 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Haha..keep at it, wood-for-trees man. I try to show you how even a 100-person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra as instructed, and you go off-tangent abt police action which didn't happen.

Haha, sure! It is a tangent to talk about when it is appropriate or not for police to use force.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:But like I said in my post, nothing can be done of true believers.

Rich, that coming from you... given your willingness to suspend disbelief and buy the government's line that they did the right thing. I OTOH don't swallow anybody's cover-my-ass explanation -- be it the government's or the idiot baba's.

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:28 am

Rashmun wrote:the problem arises when swamis and gurus start engaging in political rhetoric and make a deliberate attempt to whip up emotional frenzy in their fanatical followers. if it would have been a maulvi or maulana doing the same thing i think some people on this forum may have been more appreciative of the govt. action.

Are you suggesting then that swamis, gurus, maulvis and maulanas should not be allowed to speak about politics? Is that one of the criteria you have come up with now? Should police systematically attack political gatherings where religious leaders participate?

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:34 am

Rashmun and Merlot, do you swallow the government's line on this incident of police brutality? Or do you reserve your suspension of disbelief only for instances where the Congress government abuses power and disregards the law?

https://such.forumotion.com/t1572-beat-a-man-to-death-then-jump-on-him-thats-what-these-cops-did-in-bihar

Here is what looks like another instance of police brutality, but this
time the government controlling the police is run by a BJP ally. The
government's response is two-fold; one they say the opposition parties
are trying to get political benefit out of the story, two the police say
they stomped on the unarmed victim in self-defense. Sounds familiar? It
should. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and the lathi is in the
other hand, are the words of the perpetrators of violence any less
credible?

by truthbetold Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:00 pm

" this
time the government controlling the police is run by a BJP ally."

Just for clarification. If Cong govt launches a midnight police assault on sleeping middle class people, it is to be understood to save democracy and the security of people, property and the nation.

If BSP or BJP govt try to protect police from their extra curricular activities, then people's rights will come into picture. If Rahul Gandhi is involved NHRC has to revise its version of story.

In a country where neither side respects ordinary people's rights, sensible people will only see ruling party and opposition party.

by truthbetold Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Merlot wrote:
" I try to show you how even a 100-person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra as instructed,"

So even a 100 person gathering can't be trusted to peacefully chant the gayatri mantra, Govt should assume the right to launch a midnight strike with tear gas cover. Saudi Arabia would be amused to hear that kind of preemptive logic.

the problem arises when swamis and gurus start engaging in political rhetoric and make a deliberate attempt to whip up emotional frenzy in their fanatical followers. if it would have been a maulvi or maulana doing the same thing i think some people on this forum may have been more appreciative of the govt. action.

Lot of Maulana and Maulvi's voices did rise on people's side and they have been silenced during Arab Spring. Names are different , locations are different but the cause is the same. Ordinary people were vexed with corruption and got up and moved. Maulana's led in some countries and ramdev wanted to lead in India. The important factor is that a responsible govt would have seen the real reason for people's anger and would have tried to solve that problem. Ramdev and Maulanas were mere travelers in the bandwagon.

Some people are trying to paint the crowd in Delhi as a threat to people and property. There was also the claim that Ramdev incited people on religious grounds. If you believe these to be facts, your fact analysis is in serious requirement of an upgrade.

Whenever congress resorts to the mirage of RSS in places where it has small or no role, you can pretty much say it has lost the public opinion battle and is now trying to hunker down and rally its base.

by Guest Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:27 pm

charvaka wrote:Rashmun and Merlot, do you swallow the government's line on this incident of police brutality? Or do you reserve your suspension of disbelief only for instances where the Congress government abuses power and disregards the law?

https://such.forumotion.com/t1572-beat-a-man-to-death-then-jump-on-him-thats-what-these-cops-did-in-bihar

Here is what looks like another instance of police brutality, but this
time the government controlling the police is run by a BJP ally. The
government's response is two-fold; one they say the opposition parties
are trying to get political benefit out of the story, two the police say
they stomped on the unarmed victim in self-defense. Sounds familiar? It
should. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and the lathi is in the
other hand, are the words of the perpetrators of violence any less
credible?

--> u are attempting to compare two completely different scenarios. in the first case a decision was made by the authorities because it was feared that a 'single spark could have resulted in a conflagration' (Chidambaram's words). the authorities made the decision to disperse the crowd at night only after repeated efforts to reach out to Ramdev and mollify him had failed. Also, no one would have got hurt and no lathis would have been wielded if Ramdev would have surrendered and courted arrest to the police who came to fetch him instead of jumping from the dias and running towards his followers and then trying to use his followers as human shields.

--> it appears that your hatred for the 'Empress' (a term first used by you on this forum) is continuing to cloud your otherwise sound judgement, as Merlot has earlier pointed out.

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:46 pm

Rashmun wrote:u are attempting to compare two completely different scenarios.

Rich, that coming from you! There is as much in common between:
(a) Babri Masjid kar seva and Ramlila Maidan anti-corruption protest,

as there is between:
(b) police brutality in Ramlila Maidan and police brutality in this incident,
(c) government inaction with respect to Babri Masjid and stray dogs, and
(d) police response to Ramlila Maidan and that crowd in Mumbai that gathered for certificates.

You made comparison a without providing any rationale for it. I made comparisons b and c, and Merlot made comparison d.

Hope that helps!

by Guest Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:04 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:u are attempting to compare two completely different scenarios.
Rich, that coming from you! There is as much in common between:
(a) Babri Masjid kar seva and Ramlila Maidan anti-corruption protest,

--> acutally the comparisoin with babari masjid kar seva is quite apt in my opinion. in that case narasimha rao took at face value the bjp's assurance that it would only be a peaceful protest and there would be no violence. we all saw what ensued. this time around the authorities were not taking any chances and for good reason. Ramdev had gone back on his spoken and written word and was besides inciting his fanatical followers with emotional political rhetoric was trying to get more of them to collect at a venue for which permission had been given for 5,000 people to be taught yoga. the authorities on the ground made the decision to disperse the rally based on what the situation which they were observing first hand. it is one thing to be at the scene of action and another to sit in the u.s. and criticize the indian govt. and the police for what was a reasonable decision to disperse a rally which was turning into a potentially explosive scenario. Chidambaram had pointed out that Ram Leela ground is located in a sensitive area of Delhi.

--> also, it is not as if all rallies are being dispersed. and this decision to disperse the rally was made after all attempts to mollify Ramdev clearly failed.

--> the bjp holds many rallies regularly at delhi. (recently sushma swaraj, the bjp leader of opposition, was seen dancing at one such rally at Raj Ghat--samadhi of Mahatma Gandhi. )not one of them has been dispersed to the best of my knowledge.

by charvaka Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:04 pm

Rashmun wrote:this time around the authorities were not taking any chances and for good reason.

"This time around" what were they worried about? What old disputed structure did the crowd threaten to replace with a temple? Everyone except the wilfully blind and the mentally retarded could see what the "risks of the crowd turning violent" were on Dec 10, 1992; the crowd would destroy the mosque, and that would lead to nationwide communal riots. What were the risks last month?

Rashmun wrote:which was turning into a potentially explosive
scenario.

How was a peaceful protest "turning into a potentially
explosive scenario?" What are some of the indicators you (or the
government) used to judge that the situation was becoming explosive?

Rashmun wrote:Chidambaram had pointed out that Ram Leela ground is located in a sensitive area of Delhi.

Last time you used this line, you suggested this was a communal sensitivity; I pointed out that even BJP rallies at this very site. What makes a peaceful anti-corruption rally more "sensitive" than a BJP rally?

Rashmun wrote:also, it is not as if all rallies are being dispersed.

Exactly... this rally was targeted precisely because the government had a vested political interest in ending it. It is the arbitrary targeting of one rally that raises so many questions.

by Guest Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:35 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:this time around the authorities were not taking any chances and for good reason.
"This time around" what were they worried about? What old disputed structure did the crowd threaten to replace with a temple? Everyone except the wilfully blind and the mentally retarded could see what the "risks of the crowd turning violent" were on Dec 10, 1992; the crowd would destroy the mosque, and that would lead to nationwide communal riots. What were the risks last month?

--> one obvious risk was that of a stampede. The Ram Lila ground was already full and Ramdev, besides engaging in vitriolic rhetoric, was exhorting more and more of his followers to join in. There have been stampedes in India in the past where many people have died. For instance:

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/04/14/stampede-at-kumbh-mela-2-killed.html

http://www.infewlines.com/tag/temple-stampedes-in-india/

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:27 am

charvaka wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:But like I said in my post, nothing can be done of true believers.
Rich, that coming from you... given your willingness to suspend disbelief and buy the government's line that they did the right thing. I OTOH don't swallow anybody's cover-my-ass explanation -- be it the government's or the idiot baba's.

Haha..ok, CTGH. But see, this is not about swallowing anybody's lines, it's just a matter of common sense. That would be evident to you too if only you'd stop for a moment, your disingenuous ducking and feinting (so unbecoming of a man of high principles), and recall the basic point of disagreement: whether the local authorities were justified in pre-emptively dispersing a 10,000-strong gathering that had been peaceful until then.

My stance was that the crowd would most certainly not remain peaceful once the Baba actually started his fast and it would be much harder, and require far more force, to defuse the situation once it went on a rampage. That belief is supported by the news item I posted here.

If a 100-strong gathering, whose organizers had every incentive to keep them peaceful so they could continue to hold the higher moral ground following the Ramlila grounds episode, still went berserk the moment Baba Ramdev got admitted to the ICU, it's utterly unrealistic to expect that a crowd hundred times larger, with no such incentive, would peacefully sing bhajans and do yoga while the Baba passed out.

Instead of accepting this, you continue to rehash your trope about unjustified-midnight-police-action, apparently indifferent to the horrific human tragedy that would have unfolded from police inaction, unwilling to even accept parallels with the last major episode of police inaction (leave alone learn any lessons). Like I said about true believers...

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:14 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote: recall the basic point of disagreement: whether the local authorities were justified in pre-emptively dispersing a 10,000-strong gathering that had been peaceful until then.

again, the answer is no they were not. i am not saying the govt. is never justified in using force to disperse crowds but in this case they were not justified. for these reasons:

- the govt. had started a dialogue with baba ramdev as he began his fast. there had been a meeting in a hotel and several conversations over phone. the whole civil society was watching the drama and the replies and the counter replies. there was no hint of ramdev being communal in the govt.'s choice of words till now.

- when the nation and baba went to sleep, it was understood that baba would end his fast the moment a letter reached him -- probably the next morning. elsewhere, kapil sibal informed the media that the letter had been dispatched and was about to reach baba.

- at midnight, a lathi charge was conducted. what was the necessity for a lathi charge when,

a) a letter could have ended his fast,
b) the govt. could have persisted in negotiating with him (why at all did the govt. engage with him? why the sudden volte face?). there was no indication of a stalemate to us (civil society).

not a word has been said by the govt. about the letter till date! every allegation against ramdev, by the govt. is clearly an afterthought. the action of the govt. cannot be condoned. civil society's sympathy lies squarely with baba ramdev.

it is true, as MMS said, that members of civil society, like anna hazare and baba ramdev are free to air their views but the last word will always belong to the elected representatives. but that does not mean elected representatives can initiate a dialog with a baba ramdev and then whimsically decide to shut him up with a lathi charge and arrest. that is not called "having the last word." that is called "high handedness." after having acted so unpredictably and irrationally, there is no use in trying to justify your actions with long speeches about communal harmony.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:36 am

*aside*

this episode has confirmed our childhood fear that if you do not eat your food, police will catch you.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:38 am

Dear Mr Civil Society, my point was just about the sheer irresponsibility of gathering 10,000 people knowing they'll get whipped into a frenzy as their leader slips into coma and the prudence in dispersing them before matters escalted (as borne out by subsequent events).

As for your queries, I didn't follow the events to the level of detail you clearly did. But perhaps you missed this tidbit:

by Another Brick Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:52 am

MD, C and HK, you all seem to have followed bibi ramdev episode closely. was there a tipping point that justifies govt action? did the crowd begin destructing property when police started their lathi-charge? arthaat was this a precaution or reaction?

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:54 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Dear Mr Civil Society, my point was just about
the sheer irresponsibility of gathering 10,000 people...

dear fashion secularist, please do not guide me to media clips that discuss the events to help us reconstruct them. as you have noted, i watched the events in detail and my opinions spring directly from what i witnessed on tv. i have summarized what i saw here/link.

please read this/link news article of june 4th and note how surreal it now sounds. damn you, where the heck is this letter? which is easier? to send a letter that you have already sent or lathi charge them -- both will break the fast!

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:21 am

Another Brick wrote:MD, C and HK, you all seem to have followed bibi ramdev episode closely. was there a tipping point that justifies govt action? did the crowd begin destructing property when police started their lathi-charge? arthaat was this a precaution or reaction?

first the action happened (lathi charge), then the justification. there was no justification before the action. i have provided a link to my own synopsis in my post above.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:39 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:please read this/link news article of june 4th

note the date and time of that article: Jun 4, 2011, 11.07 pm IST. an hour or so after this, he was arrested! i had gone to bed hearing him say that the letter would be received by tomorrow morning and that he'd break his fast. in fact, in his naivete, baba ramdev had broken his fast at around 8 pm when sibal had given him a verbal assurance (over phone) that the letter had been dispatched. he told the gathering that the fast was history and the media showed people rejoicing, munching and eating. shortly later, when it seemed that sibal was engaging in double speak on camera, baba decided that he'd wait till the letter arrived to break his fast

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:31 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:dear fashion secularist, please do not guide me to media clips that discuss the events to help us reconstruct them.

I'm not forcing you to watch anything. Feel free to ignore anything you don't like.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:please read this/link news article of june 4th and note how surreal it now sounds. damn you, where the heck is this letter? which is easier? to send a letter that you have already sent or lathi charge them -- both will break the fast!

Well, you're so much more knowledgeable on these matters but from what little I know, this letter was part of that agreement struck with Bibi Ramdev's team - in exchange to the govt giving in writing its commitment to go after corruption, Bibi Ramdev was to call off the fast that night.

Of course, the entire negotiation was a sham, as Mr Devender Sharma confessed on NDTV in the clip that you didn't want me to guide you to. The fraud became clear the moment the Ramdev team went back to the protest site and Ramdev told the gathered crowds that he was proceeding on his fast. Once he reneged on the basic understanding, the significance of the government's letter became moot. And since the crowd was not going to disperse on its own, the police action. Hope that clarifies.

AB: It was precautionary.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:01 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Well, you're so much more knowledgeable

no, i am not. let me see how you will get out of this one. i have a feeling you are going to go round and round. let's see.

from what little I know, this letter was part of that agreement struck with Bibi Ramdev's team - in exchange to the govt giving in writing its commitment to go after corruption, Bibi Ramdev was to call off the fast that night.

what crap are you talking? here is what the news article says:

Toursim minister Subodh Kant Sahai told reporters that the
letter has been sent to the yoga guru and expressed hope that he would
call off the hunger strike which began here on Saturday morning.

what are you saying in addition to this? are you attaching a sequence to the events (break fast then take letter)?

Of course, the entire negotiation was a sham, as Mr Devender Sharma confessed on NDTV in the clip that you didn't want me to guide you to.

sorry. please guide me. guide me more. i don't want to you to lose focus by starting to guide yourself to stop guiding me. i watched the video.

The fraud became clear the moment the Ramdev team went back to the protest site...

it is not important what happened after the lathi charge. please focus. why was the lathi charge conducted? why was the letter not sent? why was the letter promised? even sibal sad the exact same thing on tv as subodh kanti says above. i watched it. sibal declared thunderously that the govt. was sending the letter. a lathi charge was sent instead. if the govt. could not send the letter, why was this not expressed to baba? why was it not expressed to the media? why was he lathi charged instead? had he not broken his fast temporarily at 8 pm as i have mentioned? do you dispute this fact? do you still think he was an intractable fellow? do not cite incidents from after the lathi charge to illustrate that he was unwilling to negotiate before the lathi charge.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:54 am

the video you cite is incoherent and makes no sense to me. but you have made sense of it. i quote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Of course, the entire negotiation was a sham, as Mr Devender Sharma confessed on NDTV in the clip that you didn't want me to guide you to. The fraud became clear the moment the Ramdev team went back to the protest site and Ramdev told the gathered crowds that he was proceeding on his fast. Once he reneged on the basic understanding, the significance of the government's letter became moot. And since the crowd was not going to disperse on its own, the police action. Hope that clarifies..

there was never this moment. you have not watched the proceedings and yet you are waxing eloquent in the govt.'s defense. i watched the events (perhaps carvaka sitting in usa, west coast did too -- i say this 'cos geographical distances matter a lot to you). and let me tell you that i am among millions of others who also watched it. i was not watching it for any phd i research that i might have been pursiuing. in other words, i have not pulled a feat. but, it remains that your understanding of the events is riddled with gaps of ignorance (which you will fill as we keep arguing -- hopefully).

after baba ramdev spoke to kapil sibal, he returned to the stage to declare that the fast was over. there was rejoicing. the media pronounced that the fast was over (the media picked up its own cues -- not me alone).

parallelly, kapil sibal brandished a letter to the media signed by baba's aide and said that baba has already promised to the govt. that he will break his fast by today evening (the contents of the letter do not say this).

at this point baba hesitated and said, hey they are supposed to send me a letter too! i'm not breaking my fast till i get it.

(all this is live before media -- reply & counter reply through media).

this message went back to sibal at the press conference he was giving. he replied, of course, what he wants is a clarification on something; the letter will reach him immediately.

peace was restored till midnight.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:18 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:peace was restored till midnight.

...till 2 am. i had gone to sleep, as had baba ramdev, but my wife kept vigil. the media was repeating the same line on star news: baba is waiting for the letter and he will end his fast...it will arrive any moment.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:23 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
...till 2 am. i had gone to sleep, as had baba ramdev, but my wife kept vigil. [/i]

really? this was going on so much so as to stay up all night? man I am just not into news, specially of these kind.... the last couple of times that I remember getting hooked on to the tv like this was when Pramod Mahajan was shot and then of course the 26-11 fiasco.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:28 am

i think this event got a record trp in recent times. no wonder the govt. panicked. there was quite a sensational countdown to the fast day through the media too.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:26 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Well, you're so much more knowledgeable
no, i am not. let me see how you will get out of this one. i have a feeling you are going to go round and round. let's see.

Haha...I've no interest in debating anything with you, leave alone go round and round.

My only interest in the "negotiations" was to see if that would make those 10,000 people - who had been irresponsibly gathered at one place - go home peacefully. When that didn't happen, the cops moved in and achieved the same outcome and that's where my interest ends. As for that NDTV clip, I found it useful because it helped answer the one thing that had puzzled me - why would a government send in the cops when it looked like the whole thing had already been defused through negotiations.

But since I shall not keep leading you to things you don't want to be led to, you can continue to hold on to your first hand version of the truth, derived from a ringside view of the events, and keep complaining about unjustified police actions.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:34 am

Tracy Whitney wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
...till 2 am. i had gone to sleep, as had baba ramdev, but my wife kept vigil. [/i]

really? this was going on so much so as to stay up all night?

It was not, but the media here - specially those 24 hour news channels made it one. They'll turn anything - a construction beam collapsing and killing two laborers in suburban Mumbai for example - into some national news of tremendous significance, with live minute-by-minute telecast complete with a breathless, near-hysterical anchor giving every trivial detail and then repeating that a zillion times. Turns the viewer's brains into mush while giving them an impression that they have a ringside view of events as they unfold.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:51 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:*aside*

this episode has confirmed our childhood fear that if you do not eat your food, police will catch you.

we are living in strange times indeed.

by Propagandhi711 Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:59 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
...till 2 am. i had gone to sleep, as had baba ramdev, but my wife kept vigil. [/i]

really? this was going on so much so as to stay up all night?

It was not, but the media here - specially those 24 hour news channels made it one. They'll turn anything - a construction beam collapsing and killing two laborers in suburban Mumbai for example - into some national news of tremendous significance, with live minute-by-minute telecast complete with a breathless, near-hysterical anchor giving every trivial detail and then repeating that a zillion times. Turns the viewer's brains into mush while giving them an impression that they have a ringside view of events as they unfold.

it's the same over here in the US...some jane velez bitch getting all emotional at that baby killing mom's ringside circus story that CNN has been broadcasting with breathless hourly updates for months now. this 24hr news peddling turns everybody's brains to mush. you should see the female commentators' as they rub their hands in barely concealed glee at a little excitement.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:17 pm

While media hypes non events as events, it does not take away their coverage of legitimate events such as anti corruption movement . No one can say CNN's coverage of Arab spring was useless. Failing to distinguish between significant event coverage and trivial event coverage could be an indicator of a closed mind.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:53 pm

truthbetold wrote:While media hypes non events as events, it does not take away their coverage of legitimate events such as anti corruption movement . No one can say CNN's coverage of Arab spring was useless. Failing to distinguish between significant event coverage and trivial event coverage could be an indicator of a closed mind.

--> an anti-corruption movement led by people who are themselves corrupt. lol!

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:17 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:But since I shall not keep leading you to things you don't want to be led to, you can continue to hold on to your first hand version of the truth, derived from a ringside view of the events, and keep complaining about unjustified police actions.

i apologize. i am interested in learning your analysis accompanied by your insightful video references. please show me more.

btw, i checked with my wife. apparently the govt. had sent a letter at around 1 am. baba was sleeping then. the letter was received by his aide/swamy. the media was told that baba would read the letter as soon as he woke up. lathi charge followed within five minutes of this media declaration. baba was sleeping when the police woke him up.

edit. the govt. declared to the media that it is sending a letter within 30 mins at about 9 pm. it was delivered at 1 am with a lathi charge.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:30 pm

Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:While media hypes non events as events, it does not take away their coverage of legitimate events such as anti corruption movement . No one can say CNN's coverage of Arab spring was useless. Failing to distinguish between significant event coverage and trivial event coverage could be an indicator of a closed mind.

--> an anti-corruption movement led by people who are themselves corrupt.

Only brilliant people can understand that D. Raja, Maran, Ashok Chavan, Kalmadi, 2g scam, CWG scam, adarsh scam, (let us not even go to YSR and others) are as corrupt as Anna Hazare. As Karunanidhi said CBI is high handed and SC is overstepping its limits to go after corruption. As Sibal and Chidambaram explained the whole anti corruption people's movement is 'RSS' creation. ( now that govt used the magic word, it can unleash any amount of suppression and spread any lies.)

What other lessons have I Missed?

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:32 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:But since I shall not keep leading you to things you don't want to be led to, you can continue to hold on to your first hand version of the truth, derived from a ringside view of the events, and keep complaining about unjustified police actions.

i apologize. i am interested in learning your analysis accompanied by your insightful video references. please show me more.

btw, i checked with my wife. apparently the govt. had sent a letter at around 1 am. baba was sleeping then. the letter was received by his aide/swamy. the media was told that baba would read the letter as soon as he woke up. lathi charge followed within five minutes of this media declaration. baba was sleeping when the police woke him up.

edit. the govt. declared to the media that it is sending a letter within 30 mins at about 9 pm. it was delivered at 1 am with a lathi charge.

--> in fact there is youtube evidence of Ramdev jumping from the dias (prior to his running towards his devotees and using them as human shields). so it appears that your claim that he was sleeping when the police woke him up is not true.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:35 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
truthbetold wrote:While media hypes non events as events, it does not take away their coverage of legitimate events such as anti corruption movement . No one can say CNN's coverage of Arab spring was useless. Failing to distinguish between significant event coverage and trivial event coverage could be an indicator of a closed mind.

--> an anti-corruption movement led by people who are themselves corrupt.

Only brilliant people can understand that D. Raja, Maran, Ashok Chavan, Kalmadi, 2g scam, CWG scam, adarsh scam, (let us not even go to YSR and others) are as corrupt as Anna Hazare. As Karunanidhi said CBI is high handed and SC is overstepping its limits to go after corruption. As Sibal and Chidambaram explained the whole anti corruption people's movement is 'RSS' creation. ( now that govt used the magic word, it can unleash any amount of suppression and spread any lies.)

What other lessons have I Missed?

--> what about Ramdev? is he corrupt or not corrupt? (notice that i am not talking about any BJP leaders here nor am i talking about the various scams and controversies during the bjp govt's tenure. )

by truthbetold Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:49 pm

"--> what about Ramdev? is he corrupt or not corrupt? "

As far as I know Ramdev was never in any govt role. The anti corruption movement is about govt corruption that is taking people's money and filling the politicos pockets.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:41 pm

truthbetold wrote:"--> what about Ramdev? is he corrupt or not corrupt? "

As far as I know Ramdev was never in any govt role. The anti corruption movement is about govt corruption that is taking people's money and filling the politicos pockets.

--> Ramdev has accumulated wealth of several thousand crores in a short span of 7 years or so. The allegation is that his trust is being used for income tax evasion by certain political parties and companies and individuals. So why does Ramdev not publicly reveal the names of all donors to his organization together with the amount they have contributed? And how can such a man, against whom corruption and income tax evasion allegations are being made, attempt to head an anti-corruption drive?

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:55 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote: baba was sleeping when the police woke him up.

edit. the govt. declared to the media that it is sending a letter within 30 mins at about 9 pm. it was delivered at 1 am with a lathi charge.

--> in fact there is youtube evidence of Ramdev jumping from the dias (prior to his running towards his devotees and using them as human shields). so it appears that your claim that he was sleeping when the police woke him up is not true.

did i say the baba sleepwalked into the crowd by jumping from the dias? he was sleeping when the lathi charge woke him up.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:53 am

If only had you criticised the corrupt politicians with a 25% intensity that you show against the Babas here, then one might believe some of your claims of fairness.

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:58 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If only had you criticised the corrupt politicians with a 25% intensity that you show against the Babas here, then one might believe some of your claims of fairness.

--> a disguised crook is more dangerous than an open crook.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:02 am

Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If only had you criticised the corrupt politicians with a 25% intensity that you show against the Babas here, then one might believe some of your claims of fairness.

--> a disguised crook is more dangerous than an open crook.

Ahhhhh....the usual excuse given/used by the fakularists.

A disguised maulana is worse than an open Maulana, and a openly hindu hating Aurangazeb was better than the disguised hindu-oppressor Akbar ?

by Guest Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:15 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If only had you criticised the corrupt politicians with a 25% intensity that you show against the Babas here, then one might believe some of your claims of fairness.

--> a disguised crook is more dangerous than an open crook.

Ahhhhh....the usual excuse given/used by the fakularists.

A disguised maulana is worse than an open Maulana, and a openly hindu hating Aurangazeb was better than the disguised hindu-oppressor Akbar ?

--> as per my knowledge, akbar was a great lover of hindus and hinduism. in fact the fundamentalist muslims of his time accused him of having rejected islam.

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