truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

truthbetold wrote:Smartha and vp
Along with arguments, i am requesting you to present your preference. most of us will not vote anyway either because we are not eligible or physically we may not be able to access the voting facilities.
we had several exchanges on related topics. it is time to make a decision.it comes down to  decision and why.
my preference:
upa should be defeated by a huge margin. Nda will be my vehicle.

i will take my chances with modi to give India a chance to bounce back.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Smartha and vp
Along with arguments, i am requesting you to present your preference. most of us will not vote anyway either because we are not eligible or physically we may not be able to access the voting facilities.
we had several exchanges on related topics. it is time to make a decision.it comes down to  decision and why.
my preference:
upa should be defeated by a huge margin. Nda will be my vehicle.

i will take my chances with modi to give India a chance to bounce back.

UPA has been destroying India. It will be in the country's (and CON's) interest to have a new govt. I also would like to see Laloo, Mulayam, Jagan, K'nidhi, et al., wiped out of India's political map. They have been misleading the common man to think that it is ok to be corrupt and to undermine the country's cultural heritage. They are the real enemies of India.

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

Idéfix wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

No. My vote is for AAP.

smArtha wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

rawemotions wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

No. My vote is for AAP.

Interesting!
Is this a positive vote for AAP for something specific about AAP or best of the lot vote for AAP ?

confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in  India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in  India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

Cd
is your wet dream over?

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny.  Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?

truthbetold wrote:Now the 2014 election issues are becoming more sharply defined.
modi claims development plank. He is widely believed to be above board and is expected to provide good governance.
congress claims that modi is a danger to secularism . sonia is openly courting Muslim vote . congress supporters are more and more pushing secular agenda .

opinion polls indicate Indian people reject corrupt upa .
Indian people also indicate preference to development.
but Indian people would also like to preserve Indian culture and religious tolerance. modi has a trust problem on religious tolerance issue.

how would you advice Indian people? give us a brief explanation using relative importance of development , good governance, secularism , competence and.corruption.

Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out.  This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in  India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

Cd
is your wet dream over?

Is it any worse than Chaddi's fantasizing round the clock about India becoming Muslim majority country in 20 years?! My points are valid & have precedence in both Modi's case & Kargil war.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

great methodology from the it's raining coz I tell you so school of thought. let us do the same with murders. let us select quakers and muslims & do an analysis of who has more committed per capita murders by taking into account the relative population sizes and questionable deaths since 600 ad. foolproof method! everyone else that may not agree with our conclusions can be termed fools.

Idéfix wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

If you prefer the "make up your mind first and then look at facts if you absolutely have to" methodology, good for you. 

Idéfix wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

great methodology from the it's raining coz I tell you so school of thought. let us do the same with murders. let us select quakers and muslims & do an analysis of who has more committed per capita murders by taking into account the relative population sizes and questionable deaths since 600 ad. foolproof method! everyone else that may not agree with our conclusions can be termed fools.

If you prefer the "make up your mind first and then look at facts if you absolutely have to" methodology, good for you.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out.  This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.
 
Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.

smArtha wrote:Especially, when you claim that the difference in corruption between Congress and BJP is marginal without verifying the facts or numbers as you yourself had indicated? 

smArtha wrote:In any case, besides the obvious number and magnitude of scams, another reason for the perception of high corruption during the Congress, DMK, SP or BSP regimes over that of BJP, TDP, JDU, BJD, ADMK is that during the rule of the former they empower their entire rank and file cadre, bureaucracy, employees of all classes and at all levels of Governance to be unabashedly corrupt. And this has a many fold multiplier effect both in the scale and impact when the entire tree is corrupt over a few significant nodes. This is also the reason why the political, bureaucratic and employee class is generally very happy and more co-operative with these regimes while the common man experiences big surge in corruption at each of his interactions with the Government.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out.  This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.
 
Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.

>>>The fanatic was Khomeini whose knowledge was limited to two things: shah=bad, Koran= all answers. I'm not sure there is a parallel here . It was either the high-handedness of the shah or this nut. Unfortunately, that was (and is) the nature of the Iranian polity with no tradition of self-governance or democracy. Indians have ruled themselves for 67 years and have no problems voting out governments. Indians understand orderly transition of governments. Let's not dumb ourselves down to make a spurious point. Your  litmus test may very well yield unfavorable results for a muslim candidate, but I am not sure why this is being held up as a standard. By that logic, would you nullify all the  election results since the formation of the United States till the end of the 20th century since the public did not have the mindset to vote in a black person or a woman? That may reflect the latent racism of the voting public and a certain tendency toward misogyny, but it does not lessen the qualifications of the men they elected.

Idéfix wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out.  This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.
 
Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.

>>>The fanatic was Khomeini whose knowledge was limited to two things: shah=bad, Koran= all answers. I'm not sure there is a parallel here . It was either the high-handedness of the shah or this nut. Unfortunately, that was (and is) the nature of the Iranian polity with no tradition of self-governance or democracy. Indians have ruled themselves for 67 years and have no problems voting out governments. Indians understand orderly transition of governments. Let's not dumb ourselves down to make a spurious point. Your  litmus test may very well yield unfavorable results for a muslim candidate, but I am not sure why this is being held up as a standard. By that logic, would you nullify all the  election results since the formation of the United States till the end of the 20th century since the public did not have the mindset to vote in a black person or a woman? That may reflect the latent racism of the voting public and a certain tendency toward misogyny, but it does not lessen the qualifications of the men they elected.

Besides, I don't think the west supported Khomeini over the Shah -- quite the contrary in fact.

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny.  Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?

Do you have any facts to support your claims or you are going to parrot it like you would in case of CBN  

Idéfix wrote:I don't believe Modi has strong development credentials.

Tbt: why do you say that? Question is not whether modi is the best. From your own numbers modi led Gujarat is among top performers for a long time. People who should know I.e. Gujarat citizens seem to think so.
Industrialists who generally avoid controversy risked their reputations to support modi.

I do think Congress has mismanaged the economy in the last few years. Modi has done an excellent job on PR and media management in recasting himself as a development candidate and taking advantage of Congress's poor record.

On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal. I don't think Modi is personally corrupt, and I don't think MMS is personally corrupt. Congress does have a much more illustrious track record of stealing public funds, but I attribute that to their greater time in government.

Tbt :the difference between modi and mms is that one of them allowed huge scans to go on under his nose. One of them failed to act after they were to bought to his notice. In fact one of them allowed his govt to obstruct, misdirect and malign the investigations( ex: parliament report on 2g scam). People perceive modi can run a scam free govt.

On religious tolerance, I simply do not trust Modi. He made his career by exploiting Hindu-Muslim tensions, and consciously promoted well-known criminals just because their crimes were perpetrated on Muslim victims.

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny.  Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?

Do you have any facts to support your claims or you are going to parrot it like you would in case of CBN  

cd
settle down man.  I did not understand that parrot,  cbn sentence. When you are sober and regained normal balance repeat your accusations in a more simpler sentence to allow me to respond.

Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.

Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

smArtha wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.

Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

Nope he'll just use the Stick (not throw Carrots like YSR) to make them fall in line. They may still indulge in some corruption but will now be doing it in a hush hush rather than all out and in open manner and this results in a)many small/mediocre ones will now take less or nothing b) some adventurous ones will indulge but will keep it for larger deals worthy of such a risk than for all and sundry day to day work and lastly c) a strong administrator at the helm also ensures that governance and administrative works gets done as opposed to staying stand still. All these are what weak leaderships with wholly corrupt systems cannot ensure.

confuzzled dude wrote:

smArtha wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

Nope he'll just use the Stick (not throw Carrots like YSR) to make them fall in line. They may still indulge in some corruption but will now be doing it in a hush hush rather than all out and in open manner and this results in a)many small/mediocre ones will now take less or nothing b) some adventurous ones will indulge but will keep it for larger deals worthy of such a risk than for all and sundry day to day work and lastly c) a strong administrator at the helm also ensures that governance and administrative works gets done as opposed to staying stand still. All these are what weak leaderships with wholly corrupt systems cannot ensure.

If you think all of those have happened & will happen with CBN at the helm & the opposite occurs with Congress govts, you must be hallucinating. By all means, please go ahead and narrate these madeup stories to your kids along with Ramayanam & Mahabharatam; nothing could be further from truth.