Re: Non-Hindi speaking ministers in trouble

by confuzzled dude Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:14 pm

truthbetold wrote:So what is the latest? did they change the nameplates on all govt buildings into only Hindi? what are they waiting for? they should follow kcr and close down all English channels all over India.
when are they going to have a massive million man march in Chennai?
come on guys. we are losing time.
Hindi is coming. south is doomed. Hindi is coming.

Why are you so agitated, running out of excuses? First Modiji was comfortable speaking in Hindi (more so than his native tongue, Gujarati). What's the reason for these new gag orders? especially, restrictions on social media stuff, aren't they limiting their audience by forcing them to use only Hindi

by confuzzled dude Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:20 pm

smArtha wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Agree. Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator? The originator in Hindi must use a translator to send the same message in English for those who don't know Hindi. Their response in English could be translated back to the originator.

So, instead of the 100 odd departments or ministries of the Union Government, the entire billion plus population if India should either a) become proficient in English or b) pay for translation services to be able to interact with the Government. Do you see the absurdity in this suggestion? Besides, English still is understood by no more than 20% (best case estimates) than the 60+% that understand Hindi. I'm not saying communication cannot be in English or other Languages. The default communication should be English and Hindi and the specific communications targeting an individual or group or region of the country should be in the native language of that counter party.

All the reasons you had mentioned for Hindi apply to every official language, for example in A.P people are comfortable with Telugu than Hindi or English, so why not extend this courtesy to all 20+ official languages simultaneously so every one can be as productive ad Hindi babus

by smArtha Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:28 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Agree. Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator? The originator in Hindi must use a translator to send the same message in English for those who don't know Hindi. Their response in English could be translated back to the originator.

So, instead of the 100 odd departments or ministries of the Union Government, the entire billion plus population if India should either a) become proficient in English or b) pay for translation services to be able to interact with the Government. Do you see the absurdity in this suggestion? Besides, English still is understood by no more than 20% (best case estimates) than the 60+% that understand Hindi. I'm not saying communication cannot be in English or other Languages. The default communication should be English and Hindi and the specific communications targeting an individual or group or region of the country should be in the native language of that counter party.
All the reasons you had mentioned for Hindi apply to every official language, for example in A.P people are comfortable with Telugu than Hindi or English, so why not extend this courtesy to all 20+ official languages simultaneously so every one can be as productive ad Hindi babus

I did not say that. In fact the GoI should already be doing that for all communications with regional governments or groups or individuals. If they are not yet equipped for this they can start so with Hindi (being the language spoken by majority) and then extend the same to other major languages and eventually to all languages of the country.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:28 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Why can't the sender of the original letter use a translator? English is an official language of the Union and it should be perfectly acceptable to respond to any official communication in English regardless of the language of the original request.

Demographics. Even today more people in India speak Hindi and other languages than English. How can you make an assumption that the requester knows English or any other language than what he sent the request in? Ministries and Departments are Public Service bodies and they have the onus to be public friendly. Not the other way around.

The fact is, English is an official language of the union government. Any employee of the union government should be free to send any official communication in English. A requirement to answer only in Hindi goes against this simple principle, and constitutes Hindi-pushing.

Besides, this business of translating all official documents into Hindi is another way to create government jobs for which Hindians are better qualified than other Indian citizens. It benefits less than 500 Hindians at the expense of more than 700 million non-Hindians.

by Hellsangel Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:41 pm

Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Why can't the sender of the original letter use a translator? English is an official language of the Union and it should be perfectly acceptable to respond to any official communication in English regardless of the language of the original request.

Demographics. Even today more people in India speak Hindi and other languages than English. How can you make an assumption that the requester knows English or any other language than what he sent the request in? Ministries and Departments are Public Service bodies and they have the onus to be public friendly. Not the other way around.
The fact is, English is an official language of the union government. Any employee of the union government should be free to send any official communication in English. A requirement to answer only in Hindi goes against this simple principle, and constitutes Hindi-pushing.

Besides, this business of translating all official documents into Hindi is another way to create government jobs for which Hindians are better qualified than other Indian citizens. It benefits less than 500 Hindians at the expense of more than 700 million non-Hindians.

They are just following the Indian constitution

http://lawmin.nic.in/olwing/coi/coi-english/Const.Pock%202Pg.Rom8Fsss(23).pdf

343. Official language of the Union.—(1) The official language of the
Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script.
The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union
shall be the international form of Indian numerals.
(2) Notwithstanding anything in clause (1), for a period of fifteen years
from the commencement of this Constitution, the English language shall
continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was
being used immediately before such commencement:
Provided that the President may, during the said period, by order
authorise the use of the Hindi language in addition to the English language and
of the Devanagari form of numerals in addition to the international form of
Indian numerals for any of the official purposes of the Union.
(3) Notwithstanding anything in this article, Parliament may by law
provide for the use, after the said period of fifteen years, of—
(a) the English language, or
(b) the Devanagari form of numerals,
for such purposes as may be specified in the law.
...

351. Directive for development of the Hindi language.—It shall be the
duty of the Union to promote the spread of the Hindi language, to develop it so
that it may serve as a medium of expression for all the elements of the
composite culture of India and to secure its enrichment by assimilating without
interfering with its genius, the forms, style and expressions used in Hindustani
and in the other languages of India specified in the Eighth Schedule, and by
drawing, wherever necessary or desirable, for its vocabulary, primarily on
Sanskrit and secondarily on other languages.

by smArtha Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:46 pm

Idéfix wrote:The fact is, English is an official language of the union government. Any employee of the union government should be free to send any official communication in English. A requirement to answer only in Hindi goes against this simple principle, and constitutes Hindi-pushing.

Besides, this business of translating all official documents into Hindi is another way to create government jobs for which Hindians are better qualified than other Indian citizens. It benefits less than 500 Hindians at the expense of more than 700 million non-Hindians.

Are we both reading two different things into that original diktat. It just said, respond to requests made in Hindi, in Hindi only. And that is very fair. If it said respond to everything in Hindi only then we can take up an issue.
Also, as it stands now, in the Constitution, Hindi is The Official Language of the Union and so I don't see why Hindi cannot be used along with English where necessary. And your argument for jobs can also be used against English. In fact, with English for official communication, it gives a significant advantage to the English Medium educated ones over those who had Hindi or other native language as medium of instruction. And with English, we are putting about 80% of people at a disadvantage over 50% that would be the case with Hindi. So Hindi as an official language (not necessarily excluding English) makes Govt accessible to more people than if it only entertains English. In fact, English + Hindi together makes it accessible to about 60-65% and if they include other major languages too (at least where they are counter parties) it works way better. With the language translation tools and technologies available today, it should not be that expensive to arrive at an optimal human+machine based solution to provide a multi-lingual Governance.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:06 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Why can't the sender of the original letter use a translator? English is an official language of the Union and it should be perfectly acceptable to respond to any official communication in English regardless of the language of the original request.

Demographics. Even today more people in India speak Hindi and other languages than English. How can you make an assumption that the requester knows English or any other language than what he sent the request in? Ministries and Departments are Public Service bodies and they have the onus to be public friendly. Not the other way around.
The fact is, English is an official language of the union government. Any employee of the union government should be free to send any official communication in English. A requirement to answer only in Hindi goes against this simple principle, and constitutes Hindi-pushing.

Besides, this business of translating all official documents into Hindi is another way to create government jobs for which Hindians are better qualified than other Indian citizens. It benefits less than 500 Hindians at the expense of more than 700 million non-Hindians.

They are just following the Indian constitution

http://lawmin.nic.in/olwing/coi/coi-english/Const.Pock%202Pg.Rom8Fsss(23).pdf

343. Official language of the Union.—(1) The official language of the
Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script.
The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union
shall be the international form of Indian numerals.
(2) Notwithstanding anything in clause (1), for a period of fifteen years
from the commencement of this Constitution, the English language shall
continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was
being used immediately before such commencement:
Provided that the President may, during the said period, by order
authorise the use of the Hindi language in addition to the English language and
of the Devanagari form of numerals in addition to the international form of
Indian numerals for any of the official purposes of the Union.
(3) Notwithstanding anything in this article, Parliament may by law
provide for the use, after the said period of fifteen years, of—
(a) the English language, or
(b) the Devanagari form of numerals,
for such purposes as may be specified in the law.
...

351. Directive for development of the Hindi language.—It shall be the
duty of the Union to promote the spread of the Hindi language, to develop it so
that it may serve as a medium of expression for all the elements of the
composite culture of India and to secure its enrichment by assimilating without
interfering with its genius, the forms, style and expressions used in Hindustani
and in the other languages of India specified in the Eighth Schedule, and by
drawing, wherever necessary or desirable, for its vocabulary, primarily on
Sanskrit and secondarily on other languages.

The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

by Hellsangel Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:09 pm

Idéfix wrote:
The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

If you read the original article:

Under the Official Languages Act, 1963, it is mandatory for central government ministries/departments to use Hindi along with English in files, documents and all official correspondences but over the years ministries chose to turn a blind eye to the rule.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:10 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:The fact is, English is an official language of the union government. Any employee of the union government should be free to send any official communication in English. A requirement to answer only in Hindi goes against this simple principle, and constitutes Hindi-pushing.

Besides, this business of translating all official documents into Hindi is another way to create government jobs for which Hindians are better qualified than other Indian citizens. It benefits less than 500 Hindians at the expense of more than 700 million non-Hindians.

Are we both reading two different things into that original diktat. It just said, respond to requests made in Hindi, in Hindi only. And that is very fair. If it said respond to everything in Hindi only then we can take up an issue.

It is not fair at all. The only requirement for any government employee or minister is that they respond to all requests in one of the two official languages of the union. If a request comes in Telugu -- which is one of the national languages per the constitution -- the respondent should be free to reply in Telugu, Hindi, or English. There is no constitutional basis for mandating that the reply be in Hindi only, just because the request is in Hindi.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:12 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

If you read the original article:

Under the Official Languages Act, 1963, it is mandatory for central government ministries/departments to use Hindi along with English in files, documents and all official correspondences but over the years ministries chose to turn a blind eye to the rule.

I did read that. It says, "Hindi along with English." It does not say that responses should be in Hindi only just because the original letter is in Hindi.

by Hellsangel Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

If you read the original article:

Under the Official Languages Act, 1963, it is mandatory for central government ministries/departments to use Hindi along with English in files, documents and all official correspondences but over the years ministries chose to turn a blind eye to the rule.
I did read that. It says, "Hindi along with English." It does not say that responses should be in Hindi only just because the original letter is in Hindi.

So what do you suggest? To comply, send a reply in both Hindi and English?

by smArtha Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:19 pm

Idéfix wrote:
It is not fair at all. The only requirement for any government employee or minister is that they respond to all requests in one of the two official languages of the union. If a request comes in Telugu -- which is one of the national languages per the constitution -- the respondent should be free to reply in Telugu, Hindi, or English. There is no constitutional basis for mandating that the reply be in Hindi only, just because the request is in Hindi.

If a Bank in US claims that it offers services in both English and Spanish and a customer sends in an inquiry or request in Spanish. Is your position that it is up to the specific employee of the Bank handling the Request to choose to respond in English or Spanish? What is the value of the bi-lingual services claim in that case?

by truthbetold Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:31 pm

Looks like hindi is now officially declared as the only language of the union of India.
When is the national bandh?

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:32 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

If you read the original article:

Under the Official Languages Act, 1963, it is mandatory for central government ministries/departments to use Hindi along with English in files, documents and all official correspondences but over the years ministries chose to turn a blind eye to the rule.
I did read that. It says, "Hindi along with English." It does not say that responses should be in Hindi only just because the original letter is in Hindi.

So what do you suggest? To comply, send a reply in both Hindi and English?

The respondent should be free to respond in either official language. If the person who wrote the original letter does not understand the language of the response, they can request -- and be provided with -- an official translation.

by Hellsangel Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:34 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
The current constitutional status is that English and Hindi are both official languages of the union government. As provided for at the time of drafting of the constitution, the president and parliament did take actions to ensure the indefinite continuation of English as an official language of the union. Any government employee or minister should be free to respond to any communication in English. There is no constitutional basis for a diktat ordering that replies to Hindi letters should be made in Hindi only.

If you read the original article:

Under the Official Languages Act, 1963, it is mandatory for central government ministries/departments to use Hindi along with English in files, documents and all official correspondences but over the years ministries chose to turn a blind eye to the rule.
I did read that. It says, "Hindi along with English." It does not say that responses should be in Hindi only just because the original letter is in Hindi.

So what do you suggest? To comply, send a reply in both Hindi and English?
The respondent should be free to respond in either official language. If the person who wrote the original letter does not understand the language of the response, they can request -- and be provided with -- an official translation.

So you are okay with the other way too? That the respondent reply in Hindi to a request sent in English?

by smArtha Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:41 pm

Idéfix wrote:
The respondent should be free to respond in either official language. If the person who wrote the original letter does not understand the language of the response, they can request -- and be provided with -- an official translation.

=> someone requesting information should make two requests - the original and another explicit one that the response be given in the language he understands. Why cannot the Ministries and Departments employ little common sense and translate the response to the language of the request without another accompanying request? Knowing the Indian Bureaucracy, they'll be very happy to make any simple process a multi-step one so that they can milk the public at every step of the process.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:46 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:

If you read the original article:

I did read that. It says, "Hindi along with English." It does not say that responses should be in Hindi only just because the original letter is in Hindi.

So what do you suggest? To comply, send a reply in both Hindi and English?
The respondent should be free to respond in either official language. If the person who wrote the original letter does not understand the language of the response, they can request -- and be provided with -- an official translation.

So you are okay with the other way too? That the respondent reply in Hindi to a request sent in English?

Yes, as long as there is no diktat requiring officials to reply in Hindi.

by Idéfix Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:11 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
The respondent should be free to respond in either official language. If the person who wrote the original letter does not understand the language of the response, they can request -- and be provided with -- an official translation.

=> someone requesting information should make two requests - the original and another explicit one that the response be given in the language he understands. Why cannot the Ministries and Departments employ little common sense and translate the response to the language of the request without another accompanying request? Knowing the Indian Bureaucracy, they'll be very happy to make any simple process a multi-step one so that they can milk the public at every step of the process.

Knowing the Indian bureaucracy, most of the communications drafted by each department are in response to other communications sent from within the government. For decades now, English has been the primary language of interdepartmental communication. This latest diktat is an attempt to change that. I think it is ill-advised and regressive.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:34 pm

smArtha wrote:

Isn't that common sense that if someone sends a request in Hindi that a response to that should be in Hindi? How can they make an assumption that the requester understands any language other than the one they put the request in? It is not necessary that the Minister himself or the bureaucrats need to know any Hindi, they can always avail the services of translators a pool of them could be employed/contracted and shared by various ministries. In fact they should have translators to all languages of the country available for the Departments and Ministries to be able to send communication back and forth in any language. And they can start this with Hindi (being the language understood by over 40% of the population) and then extend to other major languages and then eventually to any language that has in excess of 1% of population speaking it.

>>And they can start this with Hindi (being the language understood by over 40% of the population) and then extend to other major languages and then eventually to any language that has in excess of 1% of population speaking it.

Publish a time schedule for it. I bet everything I have that absolutely no other language translation will be made. Actually use of other languages are reduced.

Train tickets in Tamil Nadu used to be in Engloish and Tamil. Now more and more stations in TN are issuing tickets in English and Hindi ONLY

It is very easy to make announcemets in Tamil in flights to and from Tamil Nadu. Many foreign airlines do it. Air India refuses to do it

Alagiri (a inister from Tamil Nadu who does not know English well) was not allowed to talk in Tamil in parliament. Keep full time translators fpr all languages in parliament

by confuzzled dude Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:06 pm

smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Agree. Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator? The originator in Hindi must use a translator to send the same message in English for those who don't know Hindi. Their response in English could be translated back to the originator.

So, instead of the 100 odd departments or ministries of the Union Government, the entire billion plus population if India should either a) become proficient in English or b) pay for translation services to be able to interact with the Government. Do you see the absurdity in this suggestion? Besides, English still is understood by no more than 20% (best case estimates) than the 60+% that understand Hindi. I'm not saying communication cannot be in English or other Languages. The default communication should be English and Hindi and the specific communications targeting an individual or group or region of the country should be in the native language of that counter party.
All the reasons you had mentioned for Hindi apply to every official language, for example in A.P people are comfortable with Telugu than Hindi or English, so why not extend this courtesy to all 20+ official languages simultaneously so every one can be as productive ad Hindi babus

I did not say that. In fact the GoI should already be doing that for all communications with regional governments or groups or individuals. If they are not yet equipped for this they can start so with Hindi (being the language spoken by majority) and then extend the same to other major languages and eventually to all languages of the country.

Well, the very fact that they did not mention anything remotely close to your point, proves that this administration are language bigots in addition to their core competency, religious bigotry.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:34 pm

smArtha wrote:

So, instead of the 100 odd departments or ministries of the Union Government, the entire billion plus population if India should either a) become proficient in English or b) pay for translation services to be able to interact with the Government. Do you see the absurdity in this suggestion? Besides, English still is understood by no more than 20% (best case estimates) than the 60+% that understand Hindi. I'm not saying communication cannot be in English or other Languages. The default communication should be English and Hindi and the specific communications targeting an individual or group or region of the country should be in the native language of that counter party.

Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli proposed a practical solution. India declare that Hindi will be the sole official language and any state that does not like it can separate from India by a 75% vote in the state legilature or by a popular referendum

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:45 pm

>> If a request comes in Telugu -- which is one of the national languages per the constitution -- the respondent should be free to reply in Telugu, Hindi, or English.

Send a Telugu letter to Coastguard or Neyveli Lignite Corp. It will be ignored.

>> So what do you suggest? To comply, send a reply in both Hindi and English to a Hindi letter?

What you say makes sense but look at the other end. If TN gov send a letter in English Indian gov will send a reply in English and Hindi. What is the need for Hindi there.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:48 pm

The original Hindi fanatic wanted was to make Hindi sole official language from that second darkest black day on January 26, 1950.

It was thwarted by opposition from Madras. So was to become sole on Jan 26, 1965. It was thwarted by Tamil blood. The it was legislated Hindi will become sole if all states agree. That means it will never happen

Underhanded attempts are made to make Hindi sole for some time. What Modi gov is doing is another step. His gov is not the first one to do it

by truthbetold Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:59 pm

Hindi, hindustani, or english debate was happening in india for 80 plus years. Gandhi a strong supporter of hindustani could not convince leaders to make it official. Hindi as national language or rastra bhasha or offocial language of the union did not make much progress in nearly 70 years of independent india.

Indian people are learning english in droves. Larger sections of people are familiar with english today that ever before. More opportunities are available in english and to those proficient in english.

Hindi does not add much to a south indian's ability to find a job. On the other hand, Hindi as the only official language will handicap southies in jobs. even commerce may favor hindi speaking.

Whether modi or BJP or RSS likes it or not , south will not learn hindi. The problem can only be resolved through technological breakthroughs such as meaningful automatic language translators.

So the guardians of southern language interests can rest easy. The memo to use only hindi will die a natural death soon. Many such still births were announced before.

Language chicken hawks should relax and let facts come out.

by truthbetold Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:02 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:So what is the latest? did they change the nameplates on all govt buildings into only Hindi? what are they waiting for? they should follow kcr and close down all English channels all over India.
when are they going to have a massive million man march in Chennai?
come on guys. we are losing time.
Hindi is coming. south is doomed. Hindi is coming.
Why are you so agitated, running out of excuses? First Modiji was comfortable speaking in Hindi (more so than his native tongue, Gujarati). What's the reason for these new gag orders? especially, restrictions on social media stuff, aren't they limiting their audience by forcing them to use only Hindi

Cd

You are really funny. I just wanted to find out if the sky is falling language chicken hawks are doing well or not?

by confuzzled dude Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:07 pm

truthbetold wrote:Hindi, hindustani, or english debate was happening in india for 80 plus years. Gandhi a strong supporter of hindustani could not convince leaders to make it official. Hindi as national language or rastra bhasha or offocial language of the union did not make much progress in nearly 70 years of independent india.

Indian people are learning english in droves. Larger sections of people are familiar with english today that ever before. More opportunities are available in english and to those proficient in english.

Hindi does not add much to a south indian's ability to find a job. On the other hand, Hindi as the only official language will handicap southies in jobs. even commerce may favor hindi speaking.

Whether modi or BJP or RSS likes it or not , south will not learn hindi. The problem can only be resolved through technological breakthroughs such as meaningful automatic language translators.

So the guardians of southern language interests can rest easy. The memo to use only hindi will die a natural death soon. Many such still births were announced before.

Language chicken hawks should relax and let facts come out.

What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for 2060 odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push

by truthbetold Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:13 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Hindi, hindustani, or english debate was happening in india for 80 plus years. Gandhi a strong supporter of hindustani could not convince leaders to make it official. Hindi as national language or rastra bhasha or offocial language of the union did not make much progress in nearly 70 years of independent india.

Indian people are learning english in droves. Larger sections of people are familiar with english today that ever before. More opportunities are available in english and to those proficient in english.

Hindi does not add much to a south indian's ability to find a job. On the other hand, Hindi as the only official language will handicap southies in jobs. even commerce may favor hindi speaking.

Whether modi or BJP or RSS likes it or not , south will not learn hindi. The problem can only be resolved through technological breakthroughs such as meaningful automatic language translators.

So the guardians of southern language interests can rest easy. The memo to use only hindi will die a natural death soon. Many such still births were announced before.

Language chicken hawks should relax and let facts come out.
What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for 2060 odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push

incoherent nonsense. Probably on your second round.

by confuzzled dude Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:20 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Hindi, hindustani, or english debate was happening in india for 80 plus years. Gandhi a strong supporter of hindustani could not convince leaders to make it official. Hindi as national language or rastra bhasha or offocial language of the union did not make much progress in nearly 70 years of independent india.

Indian people are learning english in droves. Larger sections of people are familiar with english today that ever before. More opportunities are available in english and to those proficient in english.

Hindi does not add much to a south indian's ability to find a job. On the other hand, Hindi as the only official language will handicap southies in jobs. even commerce may favor hindi speaking.

Whether modi or BJP or RSS likes it or not , south will not learn hindi. The problem can only be resolved through technological breakthroughs such as meaningful automatic language translators.

So the guardians of southern language interests can rest easy. The memo to use only hindi will die a natural death soon. Many such still births were announced before.

Language chicken hawks should relax and let facts come out.
What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for 2060 odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push
incoherent nonsense. Probably on your second round.

I see .. nobody died in godhra & subsequent riots which probably why he didn't [have to] take any responsibility

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:23 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for ~~2060~~ odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push

Rajiv did not take responsibility for the 8,000 sikhs that he killed and neither did his family members....

so why should Modi ?

by goodcitizn Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:58 am

smArtha wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Agree. Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator? The originator in Hindi must use a translator to send the same message in English for those who don't know Hindi. Their response in English could be translated back to the originator.

So, instead of the 100 odd departments or ministries of the Union Government, the entire billion plus population if India should either a) become proficient in English or b) pay for translation services to be able to interact with the Government. Do you see the absurdity in this suggestion? Besides, English still is understood by no more than 20% (best case estimates) than the 60+% that understand Hindi. I'm not saying communication cannot be in English or other Languages. The default communication should be English and Hindi and the specific communications targeting an individual or group or region of the country should be in the native language of that counter party.

What is absurd is your argument. The govt has functioned well in the past with English as the medium of official communication. Where is the need for a change? It signals Hindi imposition on those who don't understand Hindi. When the constitution was drafted, the proposal of using only Hindi as the official language was quashed, making English as the second official language. Now to ask for all communication in Hindi from the govt to be responded only in Hindi is not only unconstitutional but borders on Hindi fanaticism.

by michelle2 Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:59 am

goodcitizn wrote:Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator?

the anus - the northindian kind - is already on you conciliatory soutThHies.

aren't you the person who tried to explain the southern indian position on hindi to the northindians here, and whined pathetically for many months about how much southern indians suffered under hindi "imposition," in order to enable the northindians to understand your difficulties?

what do you want to explain? what do you want them to understand? that you are free to speak, write, read, think, dress, and eat any way you like? you want to "explain" that to the citizens and leaders of a free, democratic, multicultural, multilingual nation?

the appropriate response to the directive to reply in hindi is: "spiki no northindian; write in thamizh (telugu, etc.), and you'll receive a reply."

may the anus be on you, uppusaamy gowNDer, rishi, idefix, kishTiangirl maria, kris, bw, impediamma, and max.

by goodcitizn Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:56 am

michelle2 wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator?
the anus - the northindian kind - is already on you conciliatory soutThHies.

aren't you the person who tried to explain the southern indian position on hindi to the northindians here, and whined pathetically for many months about how much southern indians suffered under hindi "imposition," in order to enable the northindians to understand your difficulties?

what do you want to explain? what do you want them to understand? that you are free to speak, write, read, think, dress, and eat any way you like? you want to "explain" that to the citizens and leaders of a free, democratic, multicultural, multilingual nation?

the appropriate response to the directive to reply in hindi is: "spiki no northindian; write in thamizh (telugu, etc.), and you'll receive a reply."

may the anus be on you, uppusaamy gowNDer, rishi, idefix, kishTiangirl maria, kris, bw, impediamma, and max.

michelle, fry in hell
these are words that go together well
my michelle

anus-u, anus-u, anus-u
why make such fuss-u
kindly discuss-u
until you do
we are telling you
please stop passing gas-u

michelle, pa belle
sont les mots qui vont tres bien ensemble
tres bien ensemble

we want you, we want you, we want you
to somehow understand
that hindustan
is now hindistan
so take a shower
mallu mull-u over
and wear loose undypant

michelle, get well
these are words that go together well
my michelle

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:44 am

michelle2 wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator?
the anus - the northindian kind - is already on you conciliatory soutThHies.

aren't you the person who tried to explain the southern indian position on hindi to the northindians here, and whined pathetically for many months about how much southern indians suffered under hindi "imposition," in order to enable the northindians to understand your difficulties?

what do you want to explain? what do you want them to understand? that you are free to speak, write, read, think, dress, and eat any way you like? you want to "explain" that to the citizens and leaders of a free, democratic, multicultural, multilingual nation?

the appropriate response to the directive to reply in hindi is: "spiki no northindian; write in thamizh (telugu, etc.), and you'll receive a reply."

may the anus be on you, uppusaamy gowNDer, rishi, idefix, kishTiangirl maria, kris, bw, impediamma, and max.

yes ms.kaNNagi, you are the only chaste one here. i don't think anybody on your list voluntarily went seeking hindi lessons for their offspring.

by confuzzled dude Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:53 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for ~~2060~~ odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push

Rajiv did not take responsibility for the 8,000 sikhs that he killed and neither did his family members....

so why should Modi ?

Discussion is about Modiji, we will talk about Rajiv when he tries to impose Hindi as Modiji is doing right now.

by truthbetold Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:24 am

Cd
discussion is about Hindi. you brought in Gujarati riots and response was Delhi riots. why limit it to one riot?

by your advanced forecasting insight, will Hindi replace English by the end of this week? if not, why is modi delaying?

how are the preparations for southernrevolution coming along?

by swapna Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:10 am

goodcitizn wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:Why should the onus be on the receiver to get a translator?
the anus - the northindian kind - is already on you conciliatory soutThHies.

aren't you the person who tried to explain the southern indian position on hindi to the northindians here, and whined pathetically for many months about how much southern indians suffered under hindi "imposition," in order to enable the northindians to understand your difficulties?

what do you want to explain? what do you want them to understand? that you are free to speak, write, read, think, dress, and eat any way you like? you want to "explain" that to the citizens and leaders of a free, democratic, multicultural, multilingual nation?

the appropriate response to the directive to reply in hindi is: "spiki no northindian; write in thamizh (telugu, etc.), and you'll receive a reply."

may the anus be on you, uppusaamy gowNDer, rishi, idefix, kishTiangirl maria, kris, bw, impediamma, and max.

michelle, fry in hell
these are words that go together well
my michelle

anus-u, anus-u, anus-u
why make such fuss-u
kindly discuss-u
until you do
we are telling you
please stop passing gas-u

michelle, pa belle
sont les mots qui vont tres bien ensemble
tres bien ensemble

we want you, we want you, we want you
to somehow understand
that hindustan
is now hindistan
so take a shower
mallu mull-u over
and wear loose undypant

michelle, get well
these are words that go together well
my michelle

Gdctzn, have mercy; please stop inflicting bad, plagiarized poetry on innocent people.

by Hellsangel Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:14 am

swapna wrote:
Gdctzn, have mercy; please stop inflicting bad, plagiarized poetry on innocent people.

Ha ha! ~~Achachan~~ Ammachi made a funny, calling ~~him~~herself innocent.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:43 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
What facts are you waiting for? You won't believe till you hear directly from Modiji or what? That ain't gonna happen he always ran away from taking responsibility for ~~2060~~ odd lives lost while he was CM, fat chance he will say anything openly about his Hindi push

Rajiv did not take responsibility for the 8,000 sikhs that he killed and neither did his family members....

so why should Modi ?
Discussion is about Modiji, we will talk about Rajiv when he tries to impose Hindi as Modiji is doing right now.

Then you should have stuck to Hindi and not brought the usual Godhra Lesson to Muslims for the Nth time.

by goodcitizn Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:46 am

swapna wrote:
Gdctzn, have mercy; please stop inflicting bad, plagiarized poetry on innocent people.

Aren't you a chap, na? Why swap, na?

by smArtha Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:10 am

goodcitizn wrote:
What is absurd is your argument. The govt has functioned well in the past with English as the medium of official communication. Where is the need for a change? It signals Hindi imposition on those who don't understand Hindi. When the constitution was drafted, the proposal of using only Hindi as the official language was quashed, making English as the second official language. Now to ask for all communication in Hindi from the govt to be responded only in Hindi is not only unconstitutional but borders on Hindi fanaticism.

Govts also functioned without RTI, without Rape Laws, without Dowry Laws etc. Heck, if you are willing to go farther they worked with Urdu, Persion or Sanskrit as State Language too. Clearly, that doesn't support anything about your argument. All change that we do to anything existing should be for betterment of Governance. I'm all for a very multi-lingual friendly Governance for a country as diverse as India. And I'm upset that Governments so far made no attempt towards it. However, if we are not there yet -whatever reasons- we can start first steps becoming Bi-Lingual at least i.e. Hindi AND (not a whimsical OR) English. All broadcasts from the Govt (that is communique that impacts wider population) should be in both languages.
However, for efficiency and economic considerations, specific requests need not be responded to in all languages of the Nation. They can just be responded back in the language of the request itself. And this is how I interpret the 'handle Requests in Hindi, in Hindi only'. Eventually, they should get to responding to requests made in Telugu in Telugu and so on. I fail to see the rationale in responding to requests made in Hindi in English and those made in English in Hindi purely at the discretion of the Official responding. Unless a response is meant for a larger multi-lingual audience and not restricted to the original party making the request the response should be in the language of the request. So far, none on this thread had given any sensible reason for why it should be any other way.

by smArtha Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:32 am

Idéfix wrote:It is not fair at all. The only requirement for any government employee or minister is that they respond to all requests in one of the two official languages of the union. If a request comes in Telugu -- which is one of the national languages per the constitution -- the respondent should be free to reply in Telugu, Hindi, or English. There is no constitutional basis for mandating that the reply be in Hindi only, just because the request is in Hindi.

Let me give a 'simpler' example from IT - I'm assuming that most people here understand that. Let's say there is a web based service and due to some regulation or standard is bound to support both json and xml. Now the sane thing for such a Service Provider to do is
A) accept requests in json/xml and always respond in both json AND xml so that consumers decide which version to consume.
OR if that is an over kill on resource utilization
B) accept requests in json/xml and respond back in json for json requests and xml for xml requests.

However, what your version of Service Provider will do is
C) accepts requests in json/xml and responds back to each request by whimsically/randomly choosing json OR xml and then it is up to the consumers to manage conversion themselves or request the provider back for translation.

I'm not sure about others, but I'll stay away from any Services offered by Provider employing Option-C.

by smArtha Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:37 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli proposed a practical solution. India declare that Hindi will be the sole official language and any state that does not like it can separate from India by a 75% vote in the state legilature or by a popular referendum

Who is Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli? And in what capacity is he commanding what India do and States do? India can neither make Hindi the sole language nor English nor any other one.

by goodcitizn Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:15 pm

smArtha wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
What is absurd is your argument. The govt has functioned well in the past with English as the medium of official communication. Where is the need for a change? It signals Hindi imposition on those who don't understand Hindi. When the constitution was drafted, the proposal of using only Hindi as the official language was quashed, making English as the second official language. Now to ask for all communication in Hindi from the govt to be responded only in Hindi is not only unconstitutional but borders on Hindi fanaticism.

Govts also functioned without RTI, without Rape Laws, without Dowry Laws etc. Heck, if you are willing to go farther they worked with Urdu, Persion or Sanskrit as State Language too. Clearly, that doesn't support anything about your argument. All change that we do to anything existing should be for betterment of Governance. I'm all for a very multi-lingual friendly Governance for a country as diverse as India. And I'm upset that Governments so far made no attempt towards it. However, if we are not there yet -whatever reasons- we can start first steps becoming Bi-Lingual at least i.e. Hindi AND (not a whimsical OR) English. All broadcasts from the Govt (that is communique that impacts wider population) should be in both languages.
However, for efficiency and economic considerations, specific requests need not be responded to in all languages of the Nation. They can just be responded back in the language of the request itself. And this is how I interpret the 'handle Requests in Hindi, in Hindi only'. Eventually, they should get to responding to requests made in Telugu in Telugu and so on. I fail to see the rationale in responding to requests made in Hindi in English and those made in English in Hindi purely at the discretion of the Official responding. Unless a response is meant for a larger multi-lingual audience and not restricted to the original party making the request the response should be in the language of the request. So far, none on this thread had given any sensible reason for why it should be any other way.

This thread has made many sound arguments. Just because you don't agree, they don't seem sensible to you. I am also in favor of a multi-lingual friendly governance. Unlike you, I don't see the steps taken to promote Hindi all over India as steps toward a multi-lingual friendly governance in the future. In fact, I see that as moving in the opposite direction in forcing Hindi on those who don't understand it. And for you to assume that eventually all communications originating in Telugu would be answered in Telugu is wishful thinking.

Heck, even in America, when you fly into certain cities where other languages, besides English, are prevalent, announcements are made in the local language as well. E.g. Spanish in Miami, French in New Orleans and Japanese in Seattle or Hawaii. I was pleasantly surprised to hear announcements made in Tamil during my flight from Dubai to Chennai on Thai Airways. Only Rajdhani Express has the temerity to make announcements in Hindi to passengers in Kanyakumari who have no clue to what is being said. If you think that the central govt that is pushing Hindi in all its jobs and in all its buildings and services is poised towards a multi-lingual friendly India, you live in Fantasy Land.

by confuzzled dude Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:02 pm

Is Modi's Hindi push majoritarian thrust on other major languages

https://m.facebook.com/PLEIndia?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

by Hellsangel Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:37 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:Is Modi's Hindi push majoritarian thrust on other major languages

https://m.facebook.com/PLEIndia?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

Comrade - Hindi is not the national language. It is the official language of the Federal government in India.

Article 343 of the Indian Constitution:

343. Official language of the Union.—(1) The official language of the
Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script.

You are all for not abolishing Article 370, but a 180 degree turn on article 343?

by Kayalvizhi Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:19 pm

"As long as Tamil Nadu is part of India, Hindi will be imposed on the Tamil people irrespective of who is in power in New Delhi or who is in power in Tamil Nadu." Chisel these words on a rock and set that rock in front of the Tamil Nadu State Assembly. - Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli

http://www.tamiltribune.com/99/1202.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:01 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:"As long as Tamil Nadu is part of India, Hindi will be imposed on the Tamil people irrespective of who is in power in New Delhi or who is in power in Tamil Nadu." Chisel these words on a rock and set that rock in front of the Tamil Nadu State Assembly. - Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli

http://www.tamiltribune.com/99/1202.html

You still have not answered me the question I put to you 2 years ago:

How do you plan to force Hindia to give Cauvery Waters to your independent Tamil Nadu?

by Kayalvizhi Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:04 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

You still have not answered me the question I put to you 2 years ago:

How do you plan to force Hindia to give Cauvery Waters to your independent Tamil Nadu?

It is already answered.
http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/1201.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:01 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

You still have not answered me the question I put to you 2 years ago:

How do you plan to force Hindia to give Cauvery Waters to your independent Tamil Nadu?

It is already answered.
http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/1201.html

That is a bunch of BS. Hindia will simply refuse to recognize YOUR Ealam country and will not even sign ANY agreement. You are talking like the Jehadists who live by the sword but preach peace and agreement. Wait... you are a Tamil Jehadist.

by Hellsangel Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:08 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

You still have not answered me the question I put to you 2 years ago:

How do you plan to force Hindia to give Cauvery Waters to your independent Tamil Nadu?

It is already answered.
http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/1201.html

That is a bunch of BS. Hindia will simply refuse to recognize YOUR Ealam country and will not even sign ANY agreement. You are talking like the Jehadists who live by the sword but preach peace and agreement. Wait... you are a Tamil Jehadist.

Oh! Don't worry about it. Trollus makes it up as he goes along. He seems to have learned to put some distance between this ID and his other ID.

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