http://sulekha.forumotion.com/t15-a-brief-history-of-sulekha-ch-part-12-luke-warmus-flimflam#17

Why are you documenting this history?

nicknameshwari wrote:Why are you documenting this history?

just as a little exercise in characterization.

I want to read this too....Can someone copy over please.... break it into multple posts of 2-3 para each and don't forget to paste the link!

I am not a queen of any country, but what the hey.

Tracy Whitney wrote:I want to read this too....Can someone copy over please.... break it into multple posts of 2-3 para each and don't forget to paste the link!

I am not a queen of any country, but what the hey.

bahut bak bak karti hai munnia aur kuch nahi. dimaag bahut paka rahi hai ajkal.

TW, people are busy
try this

I guess people are not THAT busy on CH.

but to what end?

nicknameshwari wrote:but to what end?

so as to hone my writing skills.

tw, let me end your misery.

link: http://sulekha.forumotion.com/t15-a-brief-history-of-sulekha-ch-part-12-luke-warmus-flimflam#17

I once wanted to write a story about Krishna. Some Krishna mythological story which was based on some original idea. This was for an assignment for a course on hindu mythology i was taking. I posted on CH asking for suggestions and VGR responded to my request:

Rashmun, if I may make a suggestion...(note to others, esp. Krishna devotees... my opinion of Krishna is that he was an ordinary human being who had an extraordinary philosophical vision in the Gita... if that viewpoint is hurtful to you, don't read on)I have always been completely fascinated by Balarama, almost more than Krishna himself. The primary highlights of the Krishna-Balarama relations are that as a kid, Balarama complained about Krishna being pampered, and out of sibling rivalry, tried to tell Krishna that he was adopted or something, I believe?? (src=amar chitra katha). In later life, I find the evolution of Balarama (aka Halayudha, one of my fav. names, the 'Plough Warrior') even more interesting. How he got disgusted with the Pandava-Kaurava rivalry and the war, and left for a pilgrimage along the banks of the dying Saraswati (he came back just after the final Bheema-Duryodhana conflict). Balarama was also the guru of Bheema and Duryodhana, and taught them (apparentely) a very different philosophy of life than Krishna taught Arjuna.

I like to speculate that Balarama revealed to Bheema a philosophy that was in some sense a counterpoint to the BG, emphasizing different things, and predating the Gita itself. I like to speculate, that in late childhood or teenage, after growing out of sibling rivalry, Balarama finally realized why Krishna was special, and made his peace with it and accept Krishna's greater vision, wisdom and enlightenment.But Balarama was never overawed by Krishna, never gave him that uncritical admiration and adulation which everyone else, (except, notably, Duryodhana and Bheema) did.I like to think this was due to the fact that Balarama was the only person who understood the weaknesses of Krishna, having grown up with him. That Balarama was the only person who truly appreciated Krishna's genius, because he understood his flaws as well.

I like to think that Balarama was both Krishna's first and best pupil of philosophy. That he evolved his own independent thinking beyond Krishna, by critically evaluating Krishna's philosophy. That he passed it on to Bheema and Duryodhana, which accounts for their strangely fierce and independent characters and roles in the Mahabharata. I think it was Balarama's teaching which made Bheema the true "finisher" of the Mahabharata: it was he who actually got rid of the Kauravas, the root of the trouble, instead of engaging in glamorous knightly deeds like Arjuna. ------------ So Rashmun, invent a little story, involving a 14 year old Krishna and a 16-year old Balarama (who far apart were they anyway??), (perhaps a joint slaying-of-a-demon mission), where some weakness of Krishna and his philosophy is revealed, leading to a philosophical rebellion on the part of Balarama, who simultaneously achieves a deep understanding of the true greatness of Krishna's evolving vision, AND its flaws. In other words, Balarama will realize that Krishna is destined for greatness and will eventually have a great and deep philosophical vision (the Gita of course), AND will predict its general nature, without of course, understanding it (since Krishna himself doesn't at this point). This will be the philosophical independence of Balarama, where he will make his peace with his precocious younger brother's talents and define his own individuality.

------------(err... that actually is the plot of a l'il dialogue story I have been trying to work on for a while, but have been hampered by poor data on Balarama and his relationhship to Krishna, Bheema and Duryodhana. You are welcome to use this plot, I'd love it infact... since you know a heck of a lot more than I do and could do justice to the theme.) On a side note Rashmun, a q which always bothered me. You said in your explanation of the Uttara Gita that it was Krishna's attempt to re-tell the BG after the war at Arjuna's request, because Arjuna claimed to have forgotten. You said Krishna said the UG would be not-so-good because BG was the height of a vision...so, this means, if the BG truly represents the vision of a historical Krishna, some scribe must have written it down at a later date (not right there... since otherwise Arjuna would not have asked for a retelling in the form of the UG). So how DID it get passed on in the meantime?

I guess Krishna must actually have preached it several times, or composed it as an oral poem passed on by Sruti/Smriti before it was written down. In which case the existence of the UG makes no sense to me. Why a second version when the first exists in perfect memory?The only other explanation is that Krishna did not have a vision at all, but a later philosopher simply put words in his mouth because he was such an interesting character in such an interesting situation. That kinda makes me sad Smile. The battlefield revelation seems kinda artificial to me... perhaps it was in the tent the night before, where he gave a pep talk and a scribe took it down. Maybe it extended over 4-5 nights before the war. Again the UG makes no sense.

Venkat

wrong version..i need flimmys. thanks!

Flimflam arrived on CH during the time i had taken a long break from the forum. He later posted using the handle Luke Warmus. He had very strong views on many issues. On a couple of issues, i had very strong disagreements with him. And yet, we continued to have cordial relations.

To begin with, Flimflam had a strong anti-North Indian bias. He would frequently criticize North Indians using unpleasant words. He claimed that he had never met uncouth North Indians in person and only knew the real face of North Indians on Sulekha CH (and perhaps other sites?), but i don't think this is correct. In his younger days, he had spent some time working in North India and i suspect he faced some regionalistic jibes in his days in Northern India. After all, there are good north indians and bad north indians just as there are good southern indians and bad southern indians. On this point, there was a broad consensus on CH that Flimflam was wrong.

The second point Flimflam was against was that he was of the opinion that the Hindi language is not the natural language of Indians in Southern India and that the only reason many Southern Indians speak and/or understand hindi is because they have historically been forced to learn it through imposition. On this point, there was a serious difference of opinion on CH. The question really is: should hindi, or hindustani, be considered the link language of urban India?

Flimflam was quite brilliant in certain respects. He posed intricate mathematical puzzles and quizzes on CH and was fond of responding to any such posts made by others. He wrote elegantly about his experiences (including his romantic experiences) in his younger days. He would also talk fondly of his children, particularly one of his daughers who was studying economics in an Ivy league school (one of whose professors was a Nobel laureate).

In debates regarding history or philosophy though he was at a disadvantage since he had clearly not spent enough time reading about historical and philosophical issues. When debating with him, i often found myself invoking history,philosophy,politics. There was one debate in which he claimed that economic growth in India is stalled because of the high population in North India. I told him that what is important is not population but population density and i gave the examples of Holland and Belgium as being economically developed countries whose population density was more than the population density in U.P. for instance. He was not convinced and stated his reasons for why one cannot compare Holland and Belgium with U.P.

He spoke his mind freely and was very free in his criticism if he did not like words or behavior of any poster. This ensured that he made many cyber enemies over the years. But he did not care. He was a one man army and could really take on anyone. One of his his detractors once compared Flimflam to a pig who does not mind mud being thrown at him and this was i think very true, but i also think it was an unintended compliment. Flimflam was so superbly desensitized that not even a hundred cyber enemies could throw him off balance. At least one poster gave death threats to Flimflam and claimed he would obtain great pleasure by seeing him dead, but this did only made Flimflam laugh.

Flimflam spoke harshly of people who spent too much time on CH instead of working. He thought this was cheating your employer. He said he would never have been spending time on CH if he was a young man or if he had a full time job. I would like to tell Flimflam if he is reading this that i am in the middle of a job transition which is why i have a little time. I will probably quit CH at least for some time somewhere in September when i begin my new job.

He was usually very careful about his privacy. Once he posted a Sulekha note he had received in which the poster had asked for his email (or had asked him to send an email) and he laughed and pointed the finger at one of his cyber enemies accusing him of sending the note. He also said its not a good idea to disclose even your email to a stranger.

But then he made an unintended and completely forgivable mistake. He had written a Sulekha note to one of his online friends on CH disclosing personal information about himself (including his name). From what i have been able to understand this friend later deleted his account and subsequently because of a bug in the CH software, one of Flimflam's innumerable detractors registered using the ID of Flimflam's friend (the one to who he had sent a note) and it must have been to his surprise that he found Flimflam's note in his notes box. The detractor then made this private information public wherein it was seized upon by some of his other cyber enemies. His place of work (including his office phone number) was identified and so on.

A somewhat restrained Flimflam continued to post on CH, but he did not move to Charvaka's new forum. In fact none of Charvaka's detractors (Luke Warmus, Seva, Sandilya) moved to the the new forum. And when most CH posters did move to Charvaka's forum, Flimflam (Luke Warmus) stopped posting altogether. (The move to the new forum was necessitated by the post killings--due to a bug in the CH software-- that started taking place on CH. )

I suspect we will not see him again and the only reason for this is that he would not like posting on a CH like forum again because he would not be able to write as freely as he used to in the past. Not just because his personal details were now public but also because a vindictive person would not have a difficult time identifying his daughter because of all he had said about her.

brave historian rashmun scared to name his dear friend SS and new enemy dut here? lol.

Flammy story is incomplete w/o a mention of kistiangirl. Wish I could write that epic.

Hellsangel wrote:Flimflam arrived on CH during the time i had taken a long break from the forum. He later posted using the handle Luke Warmus. He had very strong views on many issues. On a couple of issues, i had very strong disagreements with him. And yet, we continued to have cordial relations.

To begin with, Flimflam had a strong anti-North Indian bias. He would frequently criticize North Indians using unpleasant words. He claimed that he had never met uncouth North Indians in person and only knew the real face of North Indians on Sulekha CH (and perhaps other sites?), but i don't think this is correct. In his younger days, he had spent some time working in North India and i suspect he faced some regionalistic jibes in his days in Northern India. After all, there are good north indians and bad north indians just as there are good southern indians and bad southern indians. On this point, there was a broad consensus on CH that Flimflam was wrong.

The second point Flimflam was against was that he was of the opinion that the Hindi language is not the natural language of Indians in Southern India and that the only reason many Southern Indians speak and/or understand hindi is because they have historically been forced to learn it through imposition. On this point, there was a serious difference of opinion on CH. The question really is: should hindi, or hindustani, be considered the link language of urban India?

Flimflam was quite brilliant in certain respects. He posed intricate mathematical puzzles and quizzes on CH and was fond of responding to any such posts made by others. He wrote elegantly about his experiences (including his romantic experiences) in his younger days. He would also talk fondly of his children, particularly one of his daughers who was studying economics in an Ivy league school (one of whose professors was a Nobel laureate).

In debates regarding history or philosophy though he was at a disadvantage since he had clearly not spent enough time reading about historical and philosophical issues. When debating with him, i often found myself invoking history,philosophy,politics. There was one debate in which he claimed that economic growth in India is stalled because of the high population in North India. I told him that what is important is not population but population density and i gave the examples of Holland and Belgium as being economically developed countries whose population density was more than the population density in U.P. for instance. He was not convinced and stated his reasons for why one cannot compare Holland and Belgium with U.P.

He spoke his mind freely and was very free in his criticism if he did not like words or behavior of any poster. This ensured that he made many cyber enemies over the years. But he did not care. He was a one man army and could really take on anyone. One of his his detractors once compared Flimflam to a pig who does not mind mud being thrown at him and this was i think very true, but i also think it was an unintended compliment. Flimflam was so superbly desensitized that not even a hundred cyber enemies could throw him off balance. At least one poster gave death threats to Flimflam and claimed he would obtain great pleasure by seeing him dead, but this did only made Flimflam laugh.

Flimflam spoke harshly of people who spent too much time on CH instead of working. He thought this was cheating your employer. He said he would never have been spending time on CH if he was a young man or if he had a full time job. I would like to tell Flimflam if he is reading this that i am in the middle of a job transition which is why i have a little time. I will probably quit CH at least for some time somewhere in September when i begin my new job.

He was usually very careful about his privacy. Once he posted a Sulekha note he had received in which the poster had asked for his email (or had asked him to send an email) and he laughed and pointed the finger at one of his cyber enemies accusing him of sending the note. He also said its not a good idea to disclose even your email to a stranger.

But then he made an unintended and completely forgivable mistake. He had written a Sulekha note to one of his online friends on CH disclosing personal information about himself (including his name). From what i have been able to understand this friend later deleted his account and subsequently because of a bug in the CH software, one of Flimflam's innumerable detractors registered using the ID of Flimflam's friend (the one to who he had sent a note) and it must have been to his surprise that he found Flimflam's note in his notes box. The detractor then made this private information public wherein it was seized upon by some of his other cyber enemies. His place of work (including his office phone number) was identified and so on.

A somewhat restrained Flimflam continued to post on CH, but he did not move to Charvaka's new forum. In fact none of Charvaka's detractors (Luke Warmus, Seva, Sandilya) moved to the the new forum. And when most CH posters did move to Charvaka's forum, Flimflam (Luke Warmus) stopped posting altogether. (The move to the new forum was necessitated by the post killings--due to a bug in the CH software-- that started taking place on CH. )

I suspect we will not see him again and the only reason for this is that he would not like posting on a CH like forum again because he would not be able to write as freely as he used to in the past. Not just because his personal details were now public but also because a vindictive person would not have a difficult time identifying his daughter because of all he had said about her.

what a lovely love letter! finally the dying art of writing love letters has been revived. jane austen would be proud.

vivek's response on CH to the love letter below. I didnt know he could be funny like that...lukenama LOLLLL...



"First, why are you always in other people's briefs? Second, have you lately taken up writing obituaries on CH? What's the going rate for a half or a full page obituary? I'm shopping for a writer. I was moved reading Luke's Nehruvian achievements. Too emotional. Are their any associated "Letters from a Flim Flam to Rashmun" series? Let me know if you come up with a detailed Lukenama."