Propagandhi711 wrote:when he says he never noticed a 2 psi difference? elite of the elite control freak that is hyperaware of everything else doesnt notice something as significant..yeah sure. hope seattle beats his ass down. smirking pretty boy's downfall has begun

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

Hellsangel wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

This one probably:

southindian wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

I think what he meant to say was that cold weather decreases pressure if someone is willing to measure tire pressure.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_cold_effect_air_pressure_in_a_ball

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

southindian wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

I think what he meant to say was that cold weather decreases pressure if someone is willing to measure tire pressure.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_cold_effect_air_pressure_in_a_ball

like hellsu posted, acura TL has a TPMS that you can use to monitor pressure in real time constantly if you want.

southindian wrote:I believe Brady and Max has an explanation. They should check footballs of Colts team.

The guy who caught the interception from Brady which started all this said he did not feel ball had low pressure when he caught it. Brady and team would feel the same.

This is much ado about nothing just to put pressure on Patriots. USA knows Patriots success is not loved by 31 teams.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

southindian wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

I think what he meant to say was that cold weather decreases pressure if someone is willing to measure tire pressure.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_cold_effect_air_pressure_in_a_ball

like hellsu posted, acura TL has a TPMS that you can use to monitor pressure in real time constantly if you want.

The above article, showing the pressure drop inside the football  with drop in temp outside (according to the gas equation), has no relevance in this controversy. The Spec. for football pressure, 11.5 psi -12.5 psi, is meant for the playing conditions (whatever the temp. in the playing field where the football is thrown by QB or caught by others, whether 0 deg F or 50 deg F), and not that the football had been pressurized within that Spec. (11.5 psi -12.5 psi range) somewhere inside a hot room  prior to the game and the cold air later, outside in the field, led to its depressurizing below  11.5 psi.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

southindian wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:your tires support a 2000 lb vehicle...and what kind of TPMS you got that tells you the exact inflation psi in each tire?

I think what he meant to say was that cold weather decreases pressure if someone is willing to measure tire pressure.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_cold_effect_air_pressure_in_a_ball

like hellsu posted, acura TL has a TPMS that you can use to monitor pressure in real time constantly if you want.

The above article, showing the pressure drop inside the football  with drop in temp outside (according to the gas equation), has no relevance in this controversy. The Spec. for football pressure, 11.5 psi -12.5 psi, is meant for the playing conditions (whatever the temp. in the playing field where the football is thrown by QB or caught by others, whether 0 deg F or 50 deg F), and not that the football had been pressurized within that Spec. (11.5 psi -12.5 psi range) somewhere inside a hot room  prior to the game and the cold air later, outside in the field, led to its depressurizing below  11.5 psi.

i didn't understand much of your post. as i understood it, the NFL requires the pressure to which the balls are inflated be in a certain range, and they measure this at the beginning of every game, likely in a warm room.  since a range is provided, the patriots chose to pick the lower end of that range since it suits their style of play.  but then the outside temperature went down after the start of play, and hence the pressure fell out of range, i.e. decreased below the minimum specified. perhaps the NFL should have anticipated this and set the minimum at a higher value to compensate for potential drops in air temperature.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

southindian wrote:
I think what he meant to say was that cold weather decreases pressure if someone is willing to measure tire pressure.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_the_cold_effect_air_pressure_in_a_ball

like hellsu posted, acura TL has a TPMS that you can use to monitor pressure in real time constantly if you want.

The above article, showing the pressure drop inside the football  with drop in temp outside (according to the gas equation), has no relevance in this controversy. The Spec. for football pressure, 11.5 psi -12.5 psi, is meant for the playing conditions (whatever the temp. in the playing field where the football is thrown by QB or caught by others, whether 0 deg F or 50 deg F), and not that the football had been pressurized within that Spec. (11.5 psi -12.5 psi range) somewhere inside a hot room  prior to the game and the cold air later, outside in the field, led to its depressurizing below  11.5 psi.

i didn't understand much of your post. as i understood it, the NFL requires the pressure to which the balls are inflated be in a certain range, and they measure this at the beginning of every game, likely in a warm room.  since a range is provided, the patriots chose to pick the lower end of that range since it suits their style of play.  but then the outside temperature went down after the start of play, and hence the pressure fell out of range, i.e. decreased below the minimum specified. perhaps the NFL should have anticipated this and set the minimum at a higher value to compensate for potential drops in air temperature.

If there is any Spec. on the football pressure by the NFL (e.g. 11.5 psi - 12.5 psi), it has to be with respect to the conditions (temp. and humidity etc., whatever they might be) on the playing field and not that the football is pressurized initially, several hours before the game and in some hot / cozy room probably, in that range (11.5 psi - 12.5 psi).

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

like hellsu posted, acura TL has a TPMS that you can use to monitor pressure in real time constantly if you want.

The above article, showing the pressure drop inside the football  with drop in temp outside (according to the gas equation), has no relevance in this controversy. The Spec. for football pressure, 11.5 psi -12.5 psi, is meant for the playing conditions (whatever the temp. in the playing field where the football is thrown by QB or caught by others, whether 0 deg F or 50 deg F), and not that the football had been pressurized within that Spec. (11.5 psi -12.5 psi range) somewhere inside a hot room  prior to the game and the cold air later, outside in the field, led to its depressurizing below  11.5 psi.

i didn't understand much of your post. as i understood it, the NFL requires the pressure to which the balls are inflated be in a certain range, and they measure this at the beginning of every game, likely in a warm room.  since a range is provided, the patriots chose to pick the lower end of that range since it suits their style of play.  but then the outside temperature went down after the start of play, and hence the pressure fell out of range, i.e. decreased below the minimum specified. perhaps the NFL should have anticipated this and set the minimum at a higher value to compensate for potential drops in air temperature.

If there is any Spec. on the football pressure by the NFL (e.g. 11.5 psi - 12.5 psi), it has to be with respect to the conditions (temp. and humidity etc., whatever they might be) on the playing field and not that the football is pressurized initially, several hours before the game and in some hot / cozy room probably, in that range (11.5 psi - 12.5 psi).

that's an unreasonably tight spec given that large drops in temperature over a small time period occur frequently in this part of the country especially in winter. i am sure you know enough engineering thermodynamics to calculate what decrease in temperature can cause the pressure to go out of bounds.

Propagandhi711 wrote:yeah airtight balls deflate within 1 hr after they're inflated..because 400 lb linemen sit on them during the game. if that were even partially true we'd be reinflating our car tires hourly during winter.

this new england org is severely challenged, ethics wise. all their rings need to have an asterisk next to them in belichik era and that surly douchebag should never be inducted in hall of fame.

truthbetold wrote:According to ESPN report , nfl changed game ball during halftime after measuring the ball. 
Assuming nfl measured the balls used in first half, the bag of balls still has another 12 in spec balls.
This data point does not support the idea that balls lost pressure by sitting on sidelines.
Ball lost pressure during use in first half or some one intentionally tampered with ball.
I am guessing that nfl ball does not lose 2 psi during a half  game play. Remember they used 11 of them in first half.
Can someone deflate my theory?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the idea that they inflated to the minimum pressure and it lost pressure due to temp dropping seems the most plausible explanation.  

that Brady is saying that he couldn't feel it I agree is difficult to believe, but in the end is a separate issue. let's not conflate the two. deliberate malfeasance etc. sound ridiculous.

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the idea that they inflated to the minimum pressure and it lost pressure due to temp dropping seems the most plausible explanation.  

that Brady is saying that he couldn't feel it I agree is difficult to believe, but in the end is a separate issue. let's not conflate the two. deliberate malfeasance etc. sound ridiculous.

Max,

There were 12 other balls in the bag that were measured two hours before the game. Those were used for play in the second half. That implies they were not out of spec. That deflates the temp theory.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the idea that they inflated to the minimum pressure and it lost pressure due to temp dropping seems the most plausible explanation.  

that Brady is saying that he couldn't feel it I agree is difficult to believe, but in the end is a separate issue. let's not conflate the two. deliberate malfeasance etc. sound ridiculous.

Max,

There were 12 other balls in the bag that were measured two hours before the game. Those were used for play in the second half. That implies they were not out of spec. That deflates the temp theory.

the implicit assumption in your assertion is that they were all inflated to the same pressure. we don't know that. i read somewhere that the specs are within 1 psi (11.5 - 12.5 psi). that's pretty tight. do the pumps used to inflate these things have that precise level of control? i imagine them to be the same kind used to inflate bicycle tires or air mattresses. fairly crude devices.  if so you're probably going to end up with some statistical distribution of inflation pressures for 12 balls. brady probably felt them and picked the one which felt the easiest to grip which if the pundits are right, is usually the one with the lowest pressure. so i can well imagine a scenario in which brady picks up an in-spec, but at the lower end of the allowed pressure range ball, in a 70 F room at the start of play, and the ball is put in play. outside temp is 40 F and boom you have a 30 F temp drop right there, and it drops further during play. and then you can write the rest of the story yourself. until we know precisely what pressures each of those 12 balls were, when and at what temperatures the original measurements were made, how the balls were stored subsequently, and at what point and at what temperatures the subsequent measurements were made, and what kind of control these pumps have, there is no case here. maybe i should offer up my services as a consultant to the pats lawyers.

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the idea that they inflated to the minimum pressure and it lost pressure due to temp dropping seems the most plausible explanation.  

that Brady is saying that he couldn't feel it I agree is difficult to believe, but in the end is a separate issue. let's not conflate the two. deliberate malfeasance etc. sound ridiculous.

Max,

There were 12 other balls in the bag that were measured two hours before the game. Those were used for play in the second half. That implies they were not out of spec. That deflates the temp theory.

the implicit assumption in your assertion is that they were all inflated to the same pressure. we don't know that. i read somewhere that the specs are within 1 psi (11.5 - 12.5 psi). that's pretty tight. do the pumps used to inflate these things have that precise level of control? i imagine them to be the same kind used to inflate bicycle tires or air mattresses. fairly crude devices.  if so you're probably going to end up with some statistical distribution of inflation pressures for 12 balls. brady probably felt them and picked the one which felt the easiest to grip which if the pundits are right, is usually the one with the lowest pressure. so i can well imagine a scenario in which brady picks up an in-spec, but at the lower end of the allowed pressure range ball, in a 70 F room at the start of play, and the ball is put in play. outside temp is 40 F and boom you have a 30 F temp drop right there, and it drops further during play. and then you can write the rest of the story yourself. until we know precisely what pressures each of those 12 balls were, when and at what temperatures the original measurements were made, how the balls were stored subsequently, and at what point and at what temperatures the subsequent measurements were made, and what kind of control these pumps have, there is no case here. maybe i should offer up my services as a consultant to the pats lawyers.

From my understanding of the rules,  the balls were weighed by the NFL unpire and are in a bag and kept on ground under NFL control (which means no body is watching but no body is also suposed to touch it). brady cannot select select balls. Umpire request a ball and the ball boy gives them the ball during the game from the bag.  If every ball is randomly picked and used for few plays, will they lose 2 psi ?  No one said ball will lose that kind of pressure while in play (except brady's comment about gronkowski's spike) .  

I do not know if Patriots gained any advantage due to deflation but the explanations simply do not add up.  My first reaction to Brady's well lawyered response to charges is echoed by many of the well known NFL personalities. For all I know there could be a very simple explanation that umpire may have bled last dozen balls extra and left them on top of the bag. But till that is proven, NFL needs to probe.

“The balls were evaluated at halftime and the only reason you do that is there is some concern,” said Tim Hasselbeck, a former N.F.L. quarterback who was a ball boy for the Patriots during high school. “If the balls were O.K. before the game but not by halftime, and it was only New England’s balls that were suspect, then obviously something happened to the balls between the initial inspection and the second half.”

Because quarterbacks alone are responsible for choosing the game-day footballs, the N.F.L.’s inquiry will eventually center on Brady, Hasselbeck said, because the Patriots’ staff members would be unlikely to deflate game balls on their own.

“Unfortunately for New England, this is heading in a bad direction,” he said. “There’s no reason why a ball boy would take air out of a football unless the quarterback wanted it that way.”

truthbetold wrote: ... any advantage due to deflation ....

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

truthbetold wrote: ...  any advantage due to deflation ....

Technically, a ball at a lower pressure (at reduced psi) is likely to result in reduced reactive force (pressure) on the fingertips of the thrower during repeated tossing / throwing (leading to his hands / fingers getting less tired during the game) and help the catcher in being able to hold onto the ball (because of the reduced bouncing effect at lower pressure).

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i asked many critical questions in my post and i don't think you answered it, nor did i find it from any other source. under what conditions (particularly temperature) were the original pressure measurements made?

He said the balls' were inflated to 12.5 pounds per square inch in a controlled, indoor environment. Regulation pressure is 12.5-13.5 per square inch.

We found out once the footballs were on the field for an extended period of time, in other words, they were adjusted to the climatic conditions ... they were down approximately 1.5 pounds per square inch," he said.

The balls were remeasured in a controlled environment, and the air pressure rose about half a pound per square inch, he said.

truthbetold wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

truthbetold wrote: ...  any advantage due to deflation ....

Technically, a ball at a lower pressure (at reduced psi) is likely to result in reduced reactive force (pressure) on the fingertips of the thrower during repeated tossing / throwing (leading to his hands / fingers getting less tired during the game) and help the catcher in being able to hold onto the ball (because of the reduced bouncing effect at lower pressure).

Sevaji,

That means ball is likely to behave differently during a passing play.  All NFL plays are based on routes, timing, anticipation, and training.  Brady and NE are famous for their accurate timing patterns. They must be either training with under inflated balls all the time or they are taking a huge risk by altering the ball in a specific game.  They must also tell all their team members on the changes in ball pressure to explain different ball behavior.  There are lot of receivers who played for NE and are now with other teams who can comment on this but none has said anything. 

Unless only Brady is involved and he adjusts the ball to NE playbook on a moments notice, it is just too risky for a team to rely on under inflated ball to do tricks.  Only logic that seem to provide consistent answers, Brady always played with under inflated balls (i.e. during practice and during games).  If that is true, NFL should be able to gather enough data to prove that.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Isn't it interesting that nfl announces this report so many days after the day of incident. It takes the air out of any action proposed.

Teams made their money. A little fine and a game suspension is not going to change much.

They learned well from the Clinton school of massaging scandals.