Re: a ph.d.: the benefits and the costs

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:on a related topic -- i was having a discussion about undergraduate majors recently with a friend. she said something that had me in splits -- that's she'd rather have her kid come out and say he's transgender than say he's an english major.

I know a kid that was a national merit scholar who went to Austin to major in English. The parents did not interfere. He did MS and registered for PhD in English. before he joined PhD, he decided to do law and is doing Law now.another one did Journalism and now married and working for a newspaper. Another one went to U of Chicago for Econ (refused to go anywhere else and do any ther major) . But shifted to history - impressed by some looney - and did not tell the mother. Mother found out her major on her graduation day (The father knew but did not tell his wife). She did internship at the US Capitol, Bombay High court all with the intention of doing law, but did not like it after the internship.

So life has lot of interesting suurprises and shocks in store just when you think you did something great after sending the kids to Ivies.

by Kris Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:11 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:on a related topic -- i was having a discussion about undergraduate majors recently with a friend. she said something that had me in splits -- that's she'd rather have her kid come out and say he's transgender than say he's an english major.

I know a kid that was a national merit scholar who went to Austin to major in English. The parents did not interfere. He did MS and registered for PhD in English. before he joined PhD, he decided to do law and is doing Law now.another one did Journalism and now married and working for a newspaper. Another one went to U of Chicago for Econ (refused to go anywhere else and do any ther major) . But shifted to history - impressed by some looney - and did not tell the mother. Mother found out her major on her graduation day (The father knew but did not tell his wife). She did internship at the US Capitol, Bombay High court all with the intention of doing law, but did not like it after the internship.

So life has lot of interesting suurprises and shocks in store just when you think you did something great after sending the kids to Ivies.

>>>I think the idea is if you are bright, you will pick up the necessary skills later at work or in grad school/b-school/law school. In an ideal world, this could work. The problem is you are not going to be able to pick up STEM knowledge if you don't have the basics, if that is your inclination. The other problem even for others is employers are not exactly dying to hire the average run-of-the-mill college grads to train them. The bar has gotten higher over the past couple of decades even on that front.

by Guest Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:49 am

This thread is incomplete without experiences of Rishi.

by FluteHolder Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:26 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote: Another one went to U of Chicago for Econ (refused to go anywhere else and do any ther major) . But shifted to history - impressed by some looney - and did not tell the mother. Mother found out her major on her graduation day (The father knew but did not tell his wife). She did internship at the US Capitol, Bombay High court all with the intention of doing law, but did not like it after the internship.

This is interesting Smile

. I wonder whether any students/families encourage starting businesses/start ups after studies or it is only/possible in families already which own/run businesses?

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:24 am

this thread is full of tambi obsession with a) famous name dropping b) ivy name dropping c) bragging about things other ppl did and d) see a above

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:34 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:this thread is full of tambi obsession with a) famous name dropping b) ivy name dropping c) bragging about things other ppl did and d) see a above

the obsession with ivies + stanford is not just a tambi obsession. it's a bi-coastal indian community obsession, and for most people it is completely futile. there are a lot of disappointed pushy indian parents out there right now, with college acceptances and rejections just coming in. this year the acceptance rates at the ivies are the lowest ever recorded. there is so much emotional energy wasted on a pointless obsession.

by confuzzled dude Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:36 am

Kris wrote:
>>>I think the idea is if you are bright, you will pick up the necessary skills later at work or in grad school/b-school/law school. In an ideal world, this could work. The problem is you are not going to be able to pick up STEM knowledge if you don't have the basics, if that is your inclination. The other problem even for others is employers are not exactly dying to hire the average run-of-the-mill college grads to train them. The bar has gotten higher over the past couple of decades even on that front.

Hmm.. what position are we talking about, Sr. Vice-President?

by Hellsangel Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:22 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:this thread is full of tambi obsession with a) famous name dropping b) ivy name dropping c) bragging about things other ppl did and d) see a above

the obsession with ivies + stanford is not just a tambi obsession. it's a bi-coastal indian community obsession, and for most people it is completely futile. there are a lot of disappointed pushy indian parents out there right now, with college acceptances and rejections just coming in. this year the acceptance rates at the ivies are the lowest ever recorded. there is so much emotional energy wasted on a pointless obsession.

Not really. Very much a Tamil obsession.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:36 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:this thread is full of tambi obsession with a) famous name dropping b) ivy name dropping c) bragging about things other ppl did and d) see a above

the obsession with ivies + stanford is not just a tambi obsession. it's a bi-coastal indian community obsession, and for most people it is completely futile. there are a lot of disappointed pushy indian parents out there right now, with college acceptances and rejections just coming in. this year the acceptance rates at the ivies are the lowest ever recorded. there is so much emotional energy wasted on a pointless obsession.

am curious why you feel it's wrong for most parents to shoot for the ivies...wouldnt it teach children to aim high, and how to cope with failure and rejection at a young age?

by swapna Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:09 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:on a related topic -- i was having a discussion about undergraduate majors recently with a friend. she said something that had me in splits -- that's she'd rather have her kid come out and say he's transgender than say he's an english major.

this is a truly interesting post, and reflects the typically indian viewpoint that a major that does not have any obvious income potential, which a student pursues for its value to himself/herself is not worth pursuing.

I found it important to ask:

1. what attributes of the student and a given major field make that field a suitable choice for the student?

2. are fields such as language, literature, music, theatre and the fine arts, philosophy, and perhaps history, which are not known for their income potential, inherently "useless?"

3. what is a parent's role in his/her child's choice of a major? has tragedy struck a parent whose child has not chosen medicine, engineering, information technology, or accounting?

4. are the student's prospects for happiness in a field of endeavor an appropriate criterion to apply to the choice?

5. once a choice of a "useless" major is made at the undergraduate level, is the student condemned to a "useless," "transgender" life?

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:58 am

FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

by Kris Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:30 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>>I think the idea is if you are bright, you will pick up the necessary skills later at work or in grad school/b-school/law school. In an ideal world, this could work. The problem is you are not going to be able to pick up STEM knowledge if you don't have the basics, if that is your inclination. The other problem even for others is employers are not exactly dying to hire the average run-of-the-mill college grads to train them. The bar has gotten higher over the past couple of decades even on that front.
Hmm.. what position are we talking about, Sr. Vice-President?

>>>Even entry level positions, one obvious exception being techie positions where demand is higher than supply. I left out my reasoning in my previous post. There are enough people applying for these jobs who have 5 or 10 years of experience that there is no need to get someone out of college and train him. If you are coming out of school, it doesn't hurt to fortify your resume with concrete skills, even if they are picked up at a junior college or a certificate of some sort. That being said, I am in agreement with FF on education having to be well-rounded, not just skills that will get you a job. The latter should be a subset of an education. A broader education is what enriches your life and helps connect ideas.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:44 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

by garam_kuta Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:48 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:55 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

Most jews lived in Ghettos until the 1950s. Even now those in the Arab countries live in Ghettos. Those living in the Ghettos of Triplicane are still living there for other reasons and many have second homes somewhere in some "pakkam" or have children living in a Fairfield or Springfield.

Regarding business wait for a few more decades and they will pick up that looting technology.

by swapna Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:07 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

your friend may be jewish, but her comment had you "in splits," and you are indian, and a loyal iitan.

the questions I listed are those I asked myself at a certain critical point several years ago, not ones that you or anyone else needs to literally answer here. in any case, the answers depend on one's value system, and are quite subjective. that's one reason to not mock other people's choices.

I know from someone that many of the english and history majors of yale's class of 2007 were hired by wall street firms into high-income jobs, after campus interviews.

I am not recommending english or history for anyone, but those majors do not sound the death knell for the futures of smart, well-educated, young people.

the key words here are "well educated"; it is the rare iitan who is well educated.

by Kris Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:17 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

Most jews lived in Ghettos until the 1950s. Even now those in the Arab countries live in Ghettos. Those living in the Ghettos of Triplicane are still living there for other reasons and many have second homes somewhere in some "pakkam" or have children living in a Fairfield or Springfield.

Regarding business wait for a few more decades and they will pick up that looting technology.

>>>I think one of the first times I went to Triplicane was with an aunt. Her son was friends with their son who lived in Toronto. I asked my aunt why the family was living there, if they had a son abroad who no doubt could afford more. She told me that their rent was 5 rupees or something ridiculous like that and had been fixed generations ago. After I came to the US, I found out that the son was somewhat of an entrepreneur and also dabbled in real estate in Toronto.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:18 pm

swapna wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

your friend may be jewish, but her comment had you "in splits," and you are indian, and a loyal iitan.

the questions I listed are those I asked myself at a certain critical point several years ago, not ones that you or anyone else needs to literally answer here. in any case, the answers depend on one's value system, and are quite subjective. that's one reason to not mock other people's choices.

I know from someone that many of the english and history majors of yale's class of 2007 were hired by wall street firms into high-income jobs, after campus interviews.

I am not recommending english or history for anyone, but those majors do not sound the death knell for the futures of smart, well-educated, young people.

the key words here are "well educated"; it is the rare iitan who is well educated.

i wasn't mocking anyone. i found it funny that many jewish and indian people think alike. can we please refrain from saying things like "loyal iitian". from your posts here you are as much a "loyal iitian" as anyone i know and are afflicted with much the same emotional ticks as the rest of us.

i have no doubt that english and history majors can be hired by wall street firms in high income jobs. someone i know well who manages a lot of highly technical people very effectively is an english major. so we are on agreement on that.

that brings us to two important questions (1) why people choose to do what they do with their lives and (2) who is a well-educated person?

i reject your thesis that indians' choices are dictated primarily by income potential and i will write more about this as time allows. for now, let me state that i know lots of indians in many different walks of life who have pursued very non-traditional careers. for some reason you seem to be obsessed with the IT crowd that came to the US in a narrow sliver of time (the late 80s and 90s). there are lots of indians outside this community if you care to notice them. more later. a few examples from my graduating class and one class prior -- many university professors, a few in fields other than science and engineering, a person who took a tech company from a startup to an IPO and beyond with a market cap of $300 M, a person who has dedicated his life to working at oxfam, the CEO of CNBC india etc. etc.

lastly, would you mind explaining your idea of a well-educated person.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:40 pm

swapna wrote:
the questions I listed are those I asked myself at a certain critical point several years ago, not ones that you or anyone else needs to literally answer here.

nevertheless, i am at a similar juncture and have been for some time now, and i am asking myself these very same questions. it's easiest to make career choices when one has a burning passion for something in life and also has a natural talent for it. conflict and unhappiness arise:

(1) when a desire for a given endeavor doesn't match one's natural inclinations. in this case, the choice is to change course, or work hard at acquiring the skill set necessary for the desired endeavor.
(2) when one is equally inclined and talented in multiple directions and is multifaceted.

these are both difficult problems. i have had to deal with a mild case of (1), and will be faced with a very serious case of (2). (2) scares me because if not properly addressed it has the potential of producing the cliched jack of all trades and master of none.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
lastly, would you mind explaining your idea of a well-educated person.

A well-educated person is someone who has a long resume but can't find a job, and to whom the interviewer usually says, "we like your resume / qualifications but you are over-qualified for the job we are interviewing for."

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:19 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
lastly, would you mind explaining your idea of a well-educated person.

A well-educated person is someone who has a long resume but can't find a job, and to whom the interviewer usually says, "we like your resume / qualifications but you are over-qualified for the job we are interviewing for."

That is a euphemism for "Despite your shyt load of degrees and experience, you dont have exactly what we are looking for, and even if you can do this lowly job your salary will be less than 30% of your previous pay. So thank you."

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
swapna wrote:
the questions I listed are those I asked myself at a certain critical point several years ago, not ones that you or anyone else needs to literally answer here.

nevertheless, i am at a similar juncture and have been for some time now, and i am asking myself these very same questions. it's easiest to make career choices when one has a burning passion for something in life and also has a natural talent for it. conflict and unhappiness arise:

(1) when a desire for a given endeavor doesn't match one's natural inclinations. in this case, the choice is to change course, or work hard at acquiring the skill set necessary for the desired endeavor.
(2) when one is equally inclined and talented in multiple directions and is multifaceted.

these are both difficult problems. i have had to deal with a mild case of (1), and will be faced with a very serious case of (2). (2) scares me because if not properly addressed it has the potential of producing the cliched jack of all trades and master of none.

#2 is a big problem for many Desis (and jews) and makes it worse if the kid is adamant and stubborn (like the one that shifted to history from econ at U Chicago). What is best for this person is to put in touch with very informed and unbiased professionals and let the kid hear from them (no amount of parent drilling will work with these kids).

#1. Again, the kid should have a good head on the shoulder and the parents/advisors should have enough background to help/convince them..

A whitie kid showed up as an intern under me. asked him what he wanted to do. He works as an IT web designer (yeah - dabbled with that shyt a lot) and wants to go to med school. He had no idea what his chances are and he had restrictions on locations. Asked him bunch of questions for 10 min and told him what I thought and showed info from the net. In short, told him he had almost zero chance and he had to retake his MCAT and a significant increase will immediately move him into a "guaranteed" position. The kid was very disappointed but happy that he now knows what he should do. T

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:36 pm

i don't think FF meant having a bunch of formal degrees and diplomas when he meant well-educated. i'm truly curious about what he means by well-educated.

by swapna Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
swapna wrote:
the questions I listed are those I asked myself at a certain critical point several years ago, not ones that you or anyone else needs to literally answer here.

nevertheless, i am at a similar juncture and have been for some time now, and i am asking myself these very same questions. it's easiest to make career choices when one has a burning passion for something in life and also has a natural talent for it. conflict and unhappiness arise:

(1) when a desire for a given endeavor doesn't match one's natural inclinations. in this case, the choice is to change course, or work hard at acquiring the skill set necessary for the desired endeavor.
(2) when one is equally inclined and talented in multiple directions and is multifaceted.

these are both difficult problems. i have had to deal with a mild case of (1), and will be faced with a very serious case of (2). (2) scares me because if not properly addressed it has the potential of producing the cliched jack of all trades and master of none.

it is because of (2) that I would seek to do my undergrad studies at a full-fledged university that offers a wide variety of programs and courses, and not at any institute of technology, perhaps not even at stanford, or penn's wharton, which offers a bachelor's in business.

furthermore, I would want the student to do a more than perfunctory job of fulfilling the university's distribution requirements, so that s/he is exposed to a variety of fields of knowledge, and grows to know him/herself better, and becomes a decision-maker who is competent enough to make his/her own choices based on his/her own experiences.

(1) could be caused by the pressure of parental expectations - even unstated ones - that the young student feels, so a little distancing of oneself from the details of his/her daily academic life may be healthy, unless s/he seeks your involvement.

naturally, not knowing the details of other lives, this is merely advice I would give myself, were i to find myself at a particular stage of life.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:52 pm

swapna wrote:

(1) could be caused by the pressure of parental expectations - even unstated ones - that the young student feels, so a little distancing of oneself from the details of his/her daily academic life may be healthy, unless s/he seeks your involvement.

naturally, not knowing the details of other lives, this is merely advice I would give myself, were i to find myself at a particular stage of life.

That is interesting one. The kids often make their own judgement - often wrongly. I have come across some who are interested in painting and sculpting and hid their work from their parents. They thought their parents wanted them only to be docs, engineers or lawyers (they have drawn that conclusion based on what they hear and notice).

This past December, my family members were shocked that I believed in God bcz they thought I was an atheist..... When we all visited temples they were only looking at me in astonishment. So..there.... you are right...they make several conclusions based on unstated/unobserved expectations/views

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:54 pm

was this critical point in early 90s when "w" hightailed it to golden state with "d" and the "s" (curious how little you talk abt the wayward son that's been a theater major or something equally useless for 10 yrs and a true leftcoastal bum if there ever was on) and left you with your house of not insignificant age and career in not insignificant state of disrepair?

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:

(1) could be caused by the pressure of parental expectations - even unstated ones - that the young student feels, so a little distancing of oneself from the details of his/her daily academic life may be healthy, unless s/he seeks your involvement.

naturally, not knowing the details of other lives, this is merely advice I would give myself, were i to find myself at a particular stage of life.

That is interesting one. The kids often make their own judgement - often wrongly. I have come across some who are interested in painting and sculpting and hid their work from their parents. They thought their parents wanted them only to be docs, engineers or lawyers (they have drawn that conclusion based on what they hear and notice).

This past December, my family members were shocked that I believed in God bcz they thought I was an atheist..... When we all visited temples they were only looking at me in astonishment. So..there.... you are right...they make several conclusions based on unstated/unobserved expectations/views

yes that is interesting. also interesting was the earlier point about jews == iyers. also there was another interesting point about degree-ivy-iyer something or the other earlier in the thread. all in all very interesting thread, even with the very northindianlikemissingarticlesintheboldedtext

by garam_kuta Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:50 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

Most jews lived in Ghettos until the 1950s. Even now those in the Arab countries live in Ghettos. Those living in the Ghettos of Triplicane are still living there for other reasons and many have second homes somewhere in some "pakkam" or have children living in a Fairfield or Springfield.

Regarding business wait for a few more decades and they will pick up that looting technology.

ah... then you were prematurely speculating on brahmins of the future..indeed, you are a marathadi astrologer sAmiyAr!

the bottom line is very simple: if they are so f*in smart, why most of them are so f*in poor? - i.e., those in Triplicane and Mylapore

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:11 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:FF: detailed answers later but my friend with whom i had this convo is jewish.

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

Most jews lived in Ghettos until the 1950s. Even now those in the Arab countries live in Ghettos. Those living in the Ghettos of Triplicane are still living there for other reasons and many have second homes somewhere in some "pakkam" or have children living in a Fairfield or Springfield.

Regarding business wait for a few more decades and they will pick up that looting technology.

ah... then you were prematurely speculating on brahmins of the future..indeed, you are a marathadi astrologer sAmiyAr!

the bottom line is very simple: if they are so f*in smart, why most of them are so f*in poor? - i.e., those in Triplicane and Mylapore

Ahhh...looks like you are super angry at the Brahmins....why O why ? which Iyerini and her family turned you down? Or is it an iyengarini ?

I know I am hitting under the belt... go ahead and show me a yellow card.... Wink

by garam_kuta Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:50 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Oh well... that explains it. Jewish and Tambrams are long lost twins. Except for the religion, it is amazing to see how similar their views, approach, behavior, and attitude towards education, finance, marriage, and family matters.

So nothing surprising in what the jewish friendi said what she said.

Yeah....right... if so, why a huge majority of Tambrahms live in the ghettos of triplicane and mylapore, in hole-in-a-wall places? How many tambrahms are business people?

Most jews lived in Ghettos until the 1950s. Even now those in the Arab countries live in Ghettos. Those living in the Ghettos of Triplicane are still living there for other reasons and many have second homes somewhere in some "pakkam" or have children living in a Fairfield or Springfield.

Regarding business wait for a few more decades and they will pick up that looting technology.

ah... then you were prematurely speculating on brahmins of the future..indeed, you are a marathadi astrologer sAmiyAr!

the bottom line is very simple: if they are so f*in smart, why most of them are so f*in poor? - i.e., those in Triplicane and Mylapore

Ahhh...looks like you are super angry at the Brahmins....why O why ? which Iyerini and her family turned you down? Or is it an iyengarini ?

I know I am hitting under the belt... go ahead and show me a yellow card....

brilliant sAmiyAr.. if that's what you infer from the text in bold, you disappoint me - well, spare some blood flow above the neck saar!

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