Life in the slums of Dharavi

by .|Sublime|. Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:18 am

An article in the NYT about Dharavi

Very nicely written.

The primal need of humans to provide a better life for their children. As it says in the article, they do not see life in the slums as miserable but as a way to get ahead.

Life in Dharavi has more promise than life in their villages. They do not mind living and working in squalor because life in their villages offers them nothing but poverty. There are many government yojanas to provide employment and opportunities to rural youth but obviously all they are are ways to line pockets. Things happen in spite of the government rather than because of it. A case of no vision.

It is sad that you cannot find well written articles in the Indian media. Rarely does one come across well researched articles - articles that would give you a better sense of the issue.

by Guest Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:26 pm

horriblarious (horrible + hilarious) article.

.|Sublime|.. wrote:It is sad that you cannot find well written articles in the Indian
media. Rarely does one come across well researched articles - articles
that would give you a better sense of the issue.

by chameli Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:45 pm

sublime

what do these american writers know of what really goes on in the slums ?

the dharavi slums are mafia controlled ..there are car dealerships and modelling shows happening in there ;shoe stores even movie theaters

its a little world out there where kids and girls get molested

these peop[e are out to make bucks

schooling and college are not their goals

dom't feel sorry for them they need to live in proper dwellings ..but they choose this wayward life style

keeps the cops away too

Sanjay Gandhi had the right idea unfortunately he didn't live to fulfill his dream .

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:21 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:horriblarious (horrible + hilarious) article.

.|Sublime|.. wrote:It is sad that you cannot find well written articles in the Indian
media. Rarely does one come across well researched articles - articles
that would give you a better sense of the issue.

i read the article and found it to be informative and insightful. both "horrible" and "hilarious," are inapt and surprising descriptions of it. you've apparently failed to recognize the social and economic phenomena that dharavi represents, which the article documents, and the potential of settlements like dharavi to be the entrepreneurial hubs of the rural poor of india.

your use of the rofl emoticon above is doubly puzzling. i now regret discouraging you from posting photographs of the truckloads of unappetizing food you eat. perhaps you'll return to that activity, leaving the rest of the forum to more intelligent discourse.

by Guest Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:52 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote: you've apparently failed to recognize the social and economic phenomena that dharavi represents, which the article documents, and the potential of settlements like dharavi to be the entrepreneurial hubs of the rural poor of india.

unkil what profundites. Life in the slums of Dharavi 3077217049

i will recommend your famous consulting firm to my rich and famous friends. Life in the slums of Dharavi 3077217049

for now, let me quote a comment jagdish bhagwati made to pankaj mishra's op-ed pieces in NYT (pankaj mishra is BCom):

jagdish bhagwati wrote:"Perhaps the most articulate critics are the ‘progressive’ novelists of
India, chief among them Pankaj Mishra whom the op-ed page editors of the
New York Times regularly and almost exclusively invite to write about
the Indian economy, a privilege they do not seem to extend symmetrically
to American novelists to give us their profound thoughts on the US
economy!" [He then said of Mishra's economic analysis] "While economic
analysis can often produce a yawning indifference, and Mishra’s
narrative is by contrast eloquent and captivating, the latter is really
fiction masquerading as non-fiction.

by charvaka Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:01 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:leaving the rest of the forum to more intelligent discourse.

When did you redefine gossip as "intelligent discourse"?

by truthbetold Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:32 pm

Jeremiah is adding flavor to discussions. Now they go in directions that are similar to sulekha. Look like he got tired of his old playboy collection.

When are we going to get Chicago university stories about an imaginary daughter who is exceptionally talented?

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:56 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote: you've apparently failed to recognize the social and economic phenomena that dharavi represents, which the article documents, and the potential of settlements like dharavi to be the entrepreneurial hubs of the rural poor of india.

unkil what profundites. i will recommend your famous consulting firm to my rich and famous friends.

>>> irrelevant!

for now, let me quote a comment jagdish bhagwati made to pankaj mishra's op-ed pieces in NYT (pankaj mishra is BCom):

jagdish bhagwati wrote:"Perhaps the most articulate critics are the ‘progressive’ novelists of
India, chief among them Pankaj Mishra whom the op-ed page editors of the
New York Times regularly and almost exclusively invite to write about
the Indian economy, a privilege they do not seem to extend symmetrically
to American novelists to give us their profound thoughts on the US
economy!" [He then said of Mishra's economic analysis] "While economic
analysis can often produce a yawning indifference, and Mishra’s
narrative is by contrast eloquent and captivating, the latter is really
fiction masquerading as non-fiction.

>>> irrelevant!

by Kris Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:12 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:An article in the NYT about Dharavi

Very nicely written.

The primal need of humans to provide a better life for their children. As it says in the article, they do not see life in the slums as miserable but as a way to get ahead.

Life in Dharavi has more promise than life in their villages. They do not mind living and working in squalor because life in their villages offers them nothing but poverty. There are many government yojanas to provide employment and opportunities to rural youth but obviously all they are are ways to line pockets. Things happen in spite of the government rather than because of it. A case of no vision.

It is sad that you cannot find well written articles in the Indian media. Rarely does one come across well researched articles - articles that would give you a better sense of the issue.

>>>As human interest stories go, this one is good. Captures the can-do spirit, the heroism amidst the squalor and the filth, but while that is great, it begs the question of what is being done about the conditions that are far worse than london during the industrial revolution in the 1800's and the grinding poverty of the hinterlands that forces folks to come to dharavi. The NYT should do a follow-up story on how all this fits into the calculus of economic policy making by the gov't. Now that would be an interesting story.

by truthbetold Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:27 pm

Some one was wondering about quality articles in indian newspapers. Major english newspapers cater to city crowds that avoid unpleasant realities. Some vernacular papers who are more rooted to local issues do carry informative articles. However, a well researched article is difficult to find in India.

However, unlike USA, where a NYT article on people's condition could start a fire storm, Indian response is more WTF are these politicians doing and a shrug and move on.

To the other question on what is being done to change, not much. Since average Indian does not react to such news. Politicos jump if there are stories of corruption because they can use that for votes.

by .|Sublime|. Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:46 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:horriblarious (horrible + hilarious) article.

.|Sublime|.. wrote:It is sad that you cannot find well written articles in the Indian
media. Rarely does one come across well researched articles - articles
that would give you a better sense of the issue.

really? horrible - yes, horrible living conditions.
hilarious - didn't find anything I could laugh about in this.

by .|Sublime|. Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:51 pm

mafia - that may be the case but this article highlighted the subhuman living and working conditions of 1 million people in the city. people migrate to this hell hole to earn a living so yes they are out to make bucks.
i feel sorry about the inadequacy of a government to address the problem. like the article said, these people do not see the misery in their situation.

chameli wrote:sublime

what do these american writers know of what really goes on in the slums ?

the dharavi slums are mafia controlled ..there are car dealerships and modelling shows happening in there ;shoe stores even movie theaters

its a little world out there where kids and girls get molested

these peop[e are out to make bucks

schooling and college are not their goals

dom't feel sorry for them they need to live in proper dwellings ..but they choose this wayward life style

keeps the cops away too

Sanjay Gandhi had the right idea unfortunately he didn't live to fulfill his dream .

by .|Sublime|. Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Kris wrote:
>>>As human interest stories go, this one is good. Captures the can-do spirit, the heroism amidst the squalor and the filth, but while that is great, it begs the question of what is being done about the conditions that are far worse than london during the industrial revolution in the 1800's and the grinding poverty of the hinterlands that forces folks to come to dharavi. The NYT should do a follow-up story on how all this fits into the calculus of economic policy making by the gov't. Now that would be an interesting story.

the article did touch upon the role of the govt. but not enough. yes, a followup story would be good and that would give a good picture of how economic progress in india happens despite government policies rather than because of it.

by Guest Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:20 am

.|Sublime|. wrote:really? horrible - yes, horrible living conditions.
hilarious - didn't find anything I could laugh about in this.

the author is a "progressive," a socialist sympathizer and he sets the tenor for the piece right here:

Unlike China, India does not have colossal manufacturing districts
because India has chosen not to follow the East Asian development model
of building a modern economy by starting with low-skill manufacturing.
If China’s authoritarian leaders have deliberately steered the country’s
surplus rural work force into urban factories, Indian leaders have done
little to promote job opportunities in cities for rural migrants. In
fact, right-wing political parties in Mumbai have led sometimes-violent
campaigns against migrants.

he is perhaps suggesting that dharavi be institutionalized (and that's how one reader, vee, reads it). there are fundamental problems with that. india is not china. china managed to produce cheap things cheap through subsidies and authoritarianism -- india cannot do that. dharavi's products would become globally uncompetitive if minimum wages were enforced. the govt. meanwhile has tried to provide employment in the rural areas (mnrega). but that employment is only for 100 days a year. yet, it has reduced the massive migration of people from bihar/UP to some extent. further, the figures he cites for dharavi are purposely exaggerated (compare them with those in wikipedia on dharavi) -- so it hardly a "well researched" piece; "well doctored" rather. he says 90% of employment in india is in the informal sector (that flouts norms -- no overtime, no min. wages). i don't know if 90% is correct, but it must be pretty high. we need an inside-out approach to solve these problems -- the bull dozing china way is not for us. we need fdi in retail to erode the informal sector in agriculture. we need fdi in education (it is there but education is still a no profit, no loss category industry so no investment so far) to erode the informal sector in education and so on. i am not saying we should NOT manufacture low cost items to boost exports (we should -- 'cos we have a huge young workforce) but not through dharavi. the article paints dharavi and "urban factories" as the solution. dharavi is a disaster and it has no place in the road map to achieving this goal.

then again, we got a major boost in exports through the IT sector in the 90s. this was not an initiative of the state -- it was an initiative of the private sector. so the state is not the only game changer in india (unlike china).

by truthbetold Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:10 am

Huzefa,

" india is not china."

True. When India tried to copy china on some tactics, they ended with bigger problems. 'SEZ' landgrabbing is a barrowed idea. In WB Nandigram stands as a symbol of how poor the implementation was and how destructive the consequences were. Frankly Indian voter is still not perceptive enough to support a good govt and has often fallen for easy money (Ex: Andhra Pradesh).

"so the state is not the only game changer in india (unlike china)."
It is true that Indian people are resilient and keep fighting for their families despite Govt corruption and bad policy choices and terrible implementation of laws. However, changes in govt philosophies and major policy decisions can provide bigger impact. When Individual effort and govt actions are in conflict as in 1970s to 1990s, India achieved much less than what was possible. When there was alignment between people's actions and govt initiatives as in 1990 and 2000s, Indian economy created more jobs and opportunity than ever and world has recognized that.

India may be at a turning point where it needs to improve its governance and adherence to rule of law. Anti corruption movement, black money movements are symptoms of peoples (middle class) desire to preserve their gains and seek better opportunities. Laws are important but 'execution' or 'Implementation' may be the key. Govt plays a vital role. Lack of Govt action will not mean people are going to give up but the rate of progress will be limited compared to what is possible.

by .|Sublime|. Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:17 pm

agree with

truthbetold wrote:Lack of Govt action will not mean people are going to give up but the rate of progress will be limited compared to what is possible.

People find ways to make a living and provide for their families when they find that they do not have the support of the govt. That is what the people of Dharavi are doing.

A friend of mine has adopted a few govt schools in India and her aim is to make them into model schools. When asked why she chose to adopt a govt school instead of starting her own school or lending her resources to a private school serving a low income student population she replied that there are many useful govt programs that if properly implemented would greatly benefit the children. It is not easy though because she has to deal with local thugs, local politicians and babus who administer the programs. Govt allots money for the midday meal scheme which should provide a good quality nutritious meal for the children. Because of corruption, all she can provide them is a simple meal of dal and rice. Biscuits and bananas, she provides from donations that she receives.
Her organization is doing good work but if the system functioned the way it should, it would make a bigger difference in the children's lives.

by Kris Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:20 pm

I think the problem lies in glorification of the dharavis and then the next leap to 'lets leave it alone'. The heroism of the citizens there is to be lauded, but the underlying issues of what led to it seem to go unaddressed. It is a bit like indian road traffic. The cleverness of the driver is praiseworthy in being able to maneuver thru it, but that doesn't excuse the abysmal infrastructure. Smile

by .|Sublime|. Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:35 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

the author is a "progressive," a socialist sympathizer and he sets the tenor for the piece right here:

Unlike China, India does not have colossal manufacturing districts
because India has chosen not to follow the East Asian development model
of building a modern economy by starting with low-skill manufacturing.
If China’s authoritarian leaders have deliberately steered the country’s
surplus rural work force into urban factories, Indian leaders have done
little to promote job opportunities in cities for rural migrants. In
fact, right-wing political parties in Mumbai have led sometimes-violent
campaigns against migrants.

Providing job opportunities in rural areas would stem migration to urban areas which in turn would reduce slum population. The author is correct in indicating that.

he is perhaps suggesting that dharavi be institutionalized

I did not get that impression from the article. The sense I got was, as I have mentioned earlier, that people come to Dharavi to earn a living and they live in subhuman conditions because the slum provides them an opportunity to provide a better life for their children and family. Now, the government, instead of recognizing this fact and addressing the issue has decided to allow real estate developers to take charge. Going by past failures and half baked schemes, the people are not at fault if they suspect the govt's intentions.

i am not saying we should NOT manufacture low cost items to boost exports (we should -- 'cos we have a huge young workforce) but not through dharavi. the article paints dharavi and "urban factories" as the solution. dharavi is a disaster and it has no place in the road map to achieving this goal.

agree. I do not think that the author is trying to glorify life in the slums. He is just saying it like it is. I am sure people would not mind living and working in better conditions. A country has to provide a basic standard of living to its citizens and this is not a point of compromise just because we want to produce low cost products.

by .|Sublime|. Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Kris wrote:I think the problem lies in glorification of the dharavis and then the next leap to 'lets leave it alone'. The heroism of the citizens there is to be lauded, but the underlying issues of what led to it seem to go unaddressed. It is a bit like indian road traffic. The cleverness of the driver is praiseworthy in being able to maneuver thru it, but that doesn't excuse the abysmal infrastructure.

good analogy. another case of 'we've got to do what we've got to do'.
the gripe voiced by the people is that the govt wants to raze it to the ground because it is an eyesore without paying any heed to the fact that a million people live in these slums and they would need alternate employment and housing. Nobody wants to live in these conditions but the fact is that these slums did not spring up overnight. They have grown over several decades during which time the govt has done nothing to stop the spread or to addressing the underlying issue of migration to urban areas.

by Guest Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:58 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:Providing job opportunities in rural areas would stem migration to urban areas which in turn would reduce slum population. The author is correct in indicating that.

where does he indicate that?

by Guest Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:08 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:Now, the government, instead of recognizing this fact and addressing the issue has decided to allow real estate developers to take charge.

no. this opinion is a bit antiquated. the govt. is looking for "partnerships" with the private/fdi sector to assimilate dharavi.

by .|Sublime|. Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Providing job opportunities in rural areas would stem migration to urban areas which in turn would reduce slum population. The author is correct in indicating that.

where does he indicate that?

Providing
job opportunities in rural areas would stem migration to urban areas
which in turn would reduce slum population.
The author is correct in
indicating that "Indian leaders have done little to promote job opportunities in cities for rural migrants."

mixup in the sentences. The first sentence is my opinion formed on the basis of - (1)"Laborers came from southern India, especially the state of Tamil Nadu,
many of them Muslims or lower-caste Hindus, fleeing drought, starvation
or caste discrimination. Once Tamil Nadu’s economy strengthened,
migrants began arriving from poverty-stricken states in central India." (2) Article says that in the 90s, 100-400 people would come to Dharavi everyday in search of employment.

by .|Sublime|. Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:15 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Now, the government, instead of recognizing this fact and addressing the issue has decided to allow real estate developers to take charge.

no. this opinion is a bit antiquated. the govt. is looking for "partnerships" with the private/fdi sector to assimilate dharavi.

such partnerships are not always what they seem and they rarely are in the interests of the people who would get effected. But even if the govt's intentions were genuine, it is hard to let go of everything that has happened in the past when the gov't decided to do something about the issue. It has usually been a half baked scheme or not properly implemented. I do not think this is antiquated - it seems to be the reality.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:53 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:
such partnerships are not always what they seem and they rarely are in the interests of the people who would get effected. But even if the govt's intentions were genuine, it is hard to let go of everything that has happened in the past when the gov't decided to do something about the issue. It has usually been a half baked scheme or not properly implemented. I do not think this is antiquated - it seems to be the reality.

Did you realize that you are fast becoming another armchair expert?

We will soon take up your case for the membership of Associate partner of Armchair Consultant Group at SUCH.

by .|Sublime|. Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:48 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Did you realize that you are fast becoming another armchair expert?

We will soon take up your case for the membership of Associate partner of Armchair Consultant Group at SUCH.

aww so sweet! you have made my day. i feel honored to be in your august company. Smile

by Guest Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:20 pm

this morning in chat vee asked me what jagdish bhagwati had to say about dharavi. i said jagdish bhagwati taught me economics 101 in college. vee flipped out and viciously drew away as if i had desecrated his brahmin holiness by my untouchable ways. impossible, absurd, stfu, liar were some choicest praises he heaped on me. i went away soon after, but, upon return, noticed that he had conducted a trial as judge and jury and pronounced me an unscrupulous liar. Razz

with a kind postscript: no more chances for you liar! and had summarily logged out. it seems he does not want his cocoon of myths to be shattered by any evidence that i may submit as proof. even the saamiyaar, who was wasting time with us, doubted my claims. Razz

so jagdish bhagwati taught me economics 101 in college (undergrad level). is that my fault? he taught me economics; he did not turn me to gold! lot of famous personalities teach an undergrad course or two. anyway, this was in 1988, but, yes, he was darn famous even then.

by artood2 Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:29 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:
such partnerships are not always what they seem and they rarely are in the interests of the people who would get effected. But even if the govt's intentions were genuine, it is hard to let go of everything that has happened in the past when the gov't decided to do something about the issue. It has usually been a half baked scheme or not properly implemented. I do not think this is antiquated - it seems to be the reality.

Did you realize that you are fast becoming another armchair expert?

We will soon take up your case for the membership of Associate partner of Armchair Consultant Group at SUCH.

we are all armchair pundits.

by Guest Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:50 am

artood2 wrote:we are all armchair pundits.

+1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

i wrote to prof. bhagwati yesterday asking if it was a fact that he taught an undergraduate course in 1988 in columbia university. here is his reply that i received today:

jb38@columbia.edu

8:49 PM (16 hours ago)

to me

Hullo XXXXX:

Of course, I teach one undergraduate course practically every year!
Undergraduates are the best & brightest material to expose Economics
and its ideas to! I even teach occasionally in the Law School and in
the Journalism School as their students influence public discourse and
legislation, both of which are very important to an informed democracy.

With best wishes,

Professor Bhagwati

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