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funeral
by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:01 pm
ever since you were a child, especially a child born in the 70s in Hindu India (or was it just north india?), you knew well that women don't go to funerals. It was strictly a man's thing. if someone didn't have a son, some nephew would chip in, not even the son in law. it was very well accepted. Even women didn't want to go. Either it was for not offending the dead, or the belief that a woman will not be able to handle it.
but obviously there were exceptions. some daughters did, and so did some sons-in-law, and we all saw celebrity funerals on tv, with women participants. but it was not the norm in my area, afaik. On my part, it was a boundary i wasn't willing to cross, coz i believed if people are saying it's good for women not to go, then they must be right. Why question age old wisdom.
i had also read somewhere that usually it's the men who bring about changes to the culture and traditions, and the women who are doggone stubborn about keeping them. This was because men are raised to be more adventurous and take more life-death decisions, and know when to give up or change something, and aren't afraid. On the other hand, women find security in keeping the traditions, coz they depend on these very things for their safety, and don't want to risk themselves, even if it's oppressing to them. Explains why many women happily wear hijab.
someone i knew used to often describe his dad's funeral, some of the things i never knew. Once when he saw my mouth go open, he apologized and said that he didn't know that i didn't know. Seeing his residual trauma, i was even more determined never to attend a funeral.
all that changed last year. When my dad passed away. My voice the last voice he ever heard and responded to, coz i had sat by his side all night. He took his last breath infront of me, (if we can call it that, as he was breathing through the ventilator), and to be honest i don't even know when he breathed his last, i was just glad he slipped very silently into death.
The funeral was decided for next day. Mom said she will go. I wasn't sure about it. But she was in her own zone, 'papa has never gone anywhere without me, so how i can i let him go there alone , he will look for me'. I could actually see dad searching the crowds for her, and felt so sad for both of them. So ok. sis said you will go, and we all will go. Meaning, all the immediate women relatives.
So we went with the cars that went with dad. My niece and her friend came too. Niece's friend had broken all the shackles the year before by sacrificing her hair and doing the last rites for her father the year earlier. SIL wrapped up the stuff SILs are supposed to do at home, and came up soon.
i was lowkey expecting men to be awkward, but no one was. They were either casual or were very kind. one nephew of my dad stayed right next to my mom the whole time, didn't leave her side for a minute. we sat on the benches some 50-60 feet away from the main place. Just before they were to raise him on the pyre, someone came calling for us, for last darshan. So we went, and looked at him. Mom said he seems happy, and i looked at his face. He looked at so much peace compared the pain he seemed in earlier. She said something about - go meet your parents and siblings. She used to love his hands, so she touched those. I used to love his feet, and for last 3-4 days was constantly pressing his feet, so i repeated that action. We all noted, for no reason how cold he feels now. For some reason, all 3 of us felt very at-peace seeing him in that moment. Then we went back and sat on the benches.
Someone came to ask me to help light up the pyre too, but i refused. Didn't want to keep that memory. When my brother saw SIL come over, he called her up. No way was he doing this without her, so she went up for support. he was very sick and could barely walk.
Somehow he did the circle around with his son sharing the load, and wife and daughter were close by. At the end of it, he broke down. This was the only time i saw my brother break down, after maybe when he was 12 or so. I knew he was crying coz i saw my BIL resting his head on his shoulder, their backs were to us. I am glad i wasn't up there coz i would have broken down big time. I saw many men crying there in other funerals. I wondered if this why they don't let women come there... either to save them from seeing their men crying, or because they thought if they themselves can't handle this, how will a weaker gender handle it.
Then we went to some conference hall, when many people came up and gave speeches. This is another thing i wasn't aware of. I knew all talk only good about the dead, but i didn't knew it was in a big hall. It felt so good to see his past friends and students giving accolades. And i wondered why they didn't let women hear this before. it was such a little positive vibe on an otherwise dreadful day, as if it was the time to celebrate his life instead of mourning his death. When it was all over, we went back to almost burnt down pyre, did our last namaskar, dropped more wood and flowers, and said bye.
on 10th or 11th day, brother was to take the ashes to the river in a close by town. He was still sick. The only people accompanying him were one of my cousin brothers-in-law and the driver. I didn't want him to go alone, so i went along for moral support. (I later heard sometimes the whole village goes and i saw people lined up getting their heads shaved, but obviously looks like it's a very private affair in our family). Someone local we knew was able to get a priest for us, and when he saw brother can barely walk, so he asked me to attend too. I was very hesitant, as again i thought this was a man-only domain. But the priest said there is no such restriction, and if i went for the funeral, i can perform this too. Our driver stood by us like a hawk. Any of the rituals that needed any kind of walking was done by me. At one point the priest told me to drop my dad's ashes in the river. The big bora full of my father's remains. I was like - are you sure this is not a son's duty? he said no at this point we are equal. The driver jumped up and carried the bag all the way down the river, and i dropped it in. Same with keeping some of his remains somewere during the duration for the pooja. I don't remember but i went up and down the stairs 5-6 times to do this or that in the river, or to that thaali, each time the driver by my side. Rest of the time i sat in the havan with brother. I wasn't even looking, but once brother pointed it out, i looked closely, and then i kept looking at parts of the remains the rest of the time.
Not to mention i was traumatized for a long time after that, having repeated visions of me dropping the ashes in the river. But I no longer think a woman needs to stay out of this. I think men are similarly traumatised. In a way, it's a good thing this old restriction is fading off. Men and women are supposed to share this together. Not to be left for only one gender to do it all. Brother and I were even able to laugh about some of it later. Like when we were doing some final rituals sitting down and pouring ghee in the fire, the fire grew so big that we had to shift backwards a bit, each trying to protect or pull back the other, while trying not to drop anything and balance ourselves on the paath; and the hair on my brother's arms singed a bit.
It took me this long to put this all in print. I have often wondered this. Is it better to see your loved one pass away, or like many NRIs go only when it's all over. Is it ok to be there for the last rites, or should you go when it's all over. Some say it's better to go after, either the death or the rituals. I would not know what i would have felt if i was not a part of it. I think I am better off that i went and that i participated, even if it was hard, but i have actual memories when grieving. I am not sure what i would have been doing if it were not for that.
but obviously there were exceptions. some daughters did, and so did some sons-in-law, and we all saw celebrity funerals on tv, with women participants. but it was not the norm in my area, afaik. On my part, it was a boundary i wasn't willing to cross, coz i believed if people are saying it's good for women not to go, then they must be right. Why question age old wisdom.
i had also read somewhere that usually it's the men who bring about changes to the culture and traditions, and the women who are doggone stubborn about keeping them. This was because men are raised to be more adventurous and take more life-death decisions, and know when to give up or change something, and aren't afraid. On the other hand, women find security in keeping the traditions, coz they depend on these very things for their safety, and don't want to risk themselves, even if it's oppressing to them. Explains why many women happily wear hijab.
someone i knew used to often describe his dad's funeral, some of the things i never knew. Once when he saw my mouth go open, he apologized and said that he didn't know that i didn't know. Seeing his residual trauma, i was even more determined never to attend a funeral.
all that changed last year. When my dad passed away. My voice the last voice he ever heard and responded to, coz i had sat by his side all night. He took his last breath infront of me, (if we can call it that, as he was breathing through the ventilator), and to be honest i don't even know when he breathed his last, i was just glad he slipped very silently into death.
The funeral was decided for next day. Mom said she will go. I wasn't sure about it. But she was in her own zone, 'papa has never gone anywhere without me, so how i can i let him go there alone , he will look for me'. I could actually see dad searching the crowds for her, and felt so sad for both of them. So ok. sis said you will go, and we all will go. Meaning, all the immediate women relatives.
So we went with the cars that went with dad. My niece and her friend came too. Niece's friend had broken all the shackles the year before by sacrificing her hair and doing the last rites for her father the year earlier. SIL wrapped up the stuff SILs are supposed to do at home, and came up soon.
i was lowkey expecting men to be awkward, but no one was. They were either casual or were very kind. one nephew of my dad stayed right next to my mom the whole time, didn't leave her side for a minute. we sat on the benches some 50-60 feet away from the main place. Just before they were to raise him on the pyre, someone came calling for us, for last darshan. So we went, and looked at him. Mom said he seems happy, and i looked at his face. He looked at so much peace compared the pain he seemed in earlier. She said something about - go meet your parents and siblings. She used to love his hands, so she touched those. I used to love his feet, and for last 3-4 days was constantly pressing his feet, so i repeated that action. We all noted, for no reason how cold he feels now. For some reason, all 3 of us felt very at-peace seeing him in that moment. Then we went back and sat on the benches.
Someone came to ask me to help light up the pyre too, but i refused. Didn't want to keep that memory. When my brother saw SIL come over, he called her up. No way was he doing this without her, so she went up for support. he was very sick and could barely walk.
Somehow he did the circle around with his son sharing the load, and wife and daughter were close by. At the end of it, he broke down. This was the only time i saw my brother break down, after maybe when he was 12 or so. I knew he was crying coz i saw my BIL resting his head on his shoulder, their backs were to us. I am glad i wasn't up there coz i would have broken down big time. I saw many men crying there in other funerals. I wondered if this why they don't let women come there... either to save them from seeing their men crying, or because they thought if they themselves can't handle this, how will a weaker gender handle it.
Then we went to some conference hall, when many people came up and gave speeches. This is another thing i wasn't aware of. I knew all talk only good about the dead, but i didn't knew it was in a big hall. It felt so good to see his past friends and students giving accolades. And i wondered why they didn't let women hear this before. it was such a little positive vibe on an otherwise dreadful day, as if it was the time to celebrate his life instead of mourning his death. When it was all over, we went back to almost burnt down pyre, did our last namaskar, dropped more wood and flowers, and said bye.
on 10th or 11th day, brother was to take the ashes to the river in a close by town. He was still sick. The only people accompanying him were one of my cousin brothers-in-law and the driver. I didn't want him to go alone, so i went along for moral support. (I later heard sometimes the whole village goes and i saw people lined up getting their heads shaved, but obviously looks like it's a very private affair in our family). Someone local we knew was able to get a priest for us, and when he saw brother can barely walk, so he asked me to attend too. I was very hesitant, as again i thought this was a man-only domain. But the priest said there is no such restriction, and if i went for the funeral, i can perform this too. Our driver stood by us like a hawk. Any of the rituals that needed any kind of walking was done by me. At one point the priest told me to drop my dad's ashes in the river. The big bora full of my father's remains. I was like - are you sure this is not a son's duty? he said no at this point we are equal. The driver jumped up and carried the bag all the way down the river, and i dropped it in. Same with keeping some of his remains somewere during the duration for the pooja. I don't remember but i went up and down the stairs 5-6 times to do this or that in the river, or to that thaali, each time the driver by my side. Rest of the time i sat in the havan with brother. I wasn't even looking, but once brother pointed it out, i looked closely, and then i kept looking at parts of the remains the rest of the time.
Not to mention i was traumatized for a long time after that, having repeated visions of me dropping the ashes in the river. But I no longer think a woman needs to stay out of this. I think men are similarly traumatised. In a way, it's a good thing this old restriction is fading off. Men and women are supposed to share this together. Not to be left for only one gender to do it all. Brother and I were even able to laugh about some of it later. Like when we were doing some final rituals sitting down and pouring ghee in the fire, the fire grew so big that we had to shift backwards a bit, each trying to protect or pull back the other, while trying not to drop anything and balance ourselves on the paath; and the hair on my brother's arms singed a bit.
It took me this long to put this all in print. I have often wondered this. Is it better to see your loved one pass away, or like many NRIs go only when it's all over. Is it ok to be there for the last rites, or should you go when it's all over. Some say it's better to go after, either the death or the rituals. I would not know what i would have felt if i was not a part of it. I think I am better off that i went and that i participated, even if it was hard, but i have actual memories when grieving. I am not sure what i would have been doing if it were not for that.
Guest- Guest
Re: funeral
by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:13 pm
rasāsvāda wrote:Rest of the time i sat in the havan with brother. I wasn't even looking, but once brother pointed it out, i looked closely, and then i kept looking at parts of the remains the rest of the time.
... but i didn't cry even once that day
Guest- Guest
Re: funeral
by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:06 am
Yup! Been there... done that and wrote it as well. I was happy I wrote it. I open the document and read it whenever I want and reading it makes me go back in time and relive the moments. My sister waited for me before going for his last rights and I'll always be indebted to her she did.rasāsvāda wrote:It took me this long to put this all in print. I have often wondered this. Is it better to see your loved one pass away, or like many NRIs go only when it's all over. Is it ok to be there for the last rites, or should you go when it's all over. Some say it's better to go after, either the death or the rituals. I would not know what i would have felt if i was not a part of it. I think I am better off that i went and that i participated, even if it was hard, but i have actual memories when grieving. I am not sure what i would have been doing if it were not for that.
Breaking the shackles is important and people (and temples) buried in 800 year old stupid traditions will soon be history and forgotten.
southindian- Posts : 4643
Join date : 2012-10-08
Re: funeral
by Seva Lamberdar Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:14 am
The following describes why Hindu women long ago did not take active part in funerals, and mostly the men did.
"Cremation and its origin in Hinduism" ... http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/cremation.html
"Cremation and its origin in Hinduism" ... http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/cremation.html
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6594
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: funeral
by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:38 am
southindian wrote:Yup! Been there... done that and wrote it as well. I was happy I wrote it. I open the document and read it whenever I want and reading it makes me go back in time and relive the moments. My sister waited for me before going for his last rights and I'll always be indebted to her she did.rasāsvāda wrote:It took me this long to put this all in print. I have often wondered this. Is it better to see your loved one pass away, or like many NRIs go only when it's all over. Is it ok to be there for the last rites, or should you go when it's all over. Some say it's better to go after, either the death or the rituals. I would not know what i would have felt if i was not a part of it. I think I am better off that i went and that i participated, even if it was hard, but i have actual memories when grieving. I am not sure what i would have been doing if it were not for that.
Breaking the shackles is important and people (and temples) buried in 800 year old stupid traditions will soon be history and forgotten.
do share what you wrote, if you can...
Seva, I can't open your link at work, and it spams out in my phone, so will check it out later and reply. I was thinking earlier... back then women didn't even go in baraats, only men did. It was probably uncomfortable for them to go on long road trips on foot or carts, which at times took upto a month, and they were to stay home and prepare for the arrival of the new bride. Whatever the practical reasons were, this was made a rule, with more logic added. When my cousin married in mid-80s, his mother stayed back to 'keep the tradition', even though the baraat was going to next town 30 min away. thankfully that tradition too is long forgotten. and let's not even get started with the sati pratha, or bal vivah, or widow remarriage...
Guest- Guest
Re: funeral
by Seva Lamberdar Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:59 pm
RV, did you check out the blog?rasāsvāda wrote:southindian wrote:Yup! Been there... done that and wrote it as well. I was happy I wrote it. I open the document and read it whenever I want and reading it makes me go back in time and relive the moments. My sister waited for me before going for his last rights and I'll always be indebted to her she did.rasāsvāda wrote:It took me this long to put this all in print. I have often wondered this. Is it better to see your loved one pass away, or like many NRIs go only when it's all over. Is it ok to be there for the last rites, or should you go when it's all over. Some say it's better to go after, either the death or the rituals. I would not know what i would have felt if i was not a part of it. I think I am better off that i went and that i participated, even if it was hard, but i have actual memories when grieving. I am not sure what i would have been doing if it were not for that.
Breaking the shackles is important and people (and temples) buried in 800 year old stupid traditions will soon be history and forgotten.
do share what you wrote, if you can...
Seva, I can't open your link at work, and it spams out in my phone, so will check it out later and reply. I was thinking earlier... back then women didn't even go in baraats, only men did. It was probably uncomfortable for them to go on long road trips on foot or carts, which at times took upto a month, and they were to stay home and prepare for the arrival of the new bride. Whatever the practical reasons were, this was made a rule, with more logic added. When my cousin married in mid-80s, his mother stayed back to 'keep the tradition', even though the baraat was going to next town 30 min away. thankfully that tradition too is long forgotten. and let's not even get started with the sati pratha, or bal vivah, or widow remarriage...
Seva Lamberdar- Posts : 6594
Join date : 2012-11-29 -
Re: funeral
by Guest Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:29 pm
(i love the name RV, heh. Recreational Vehicle)
i did read it last night. was something about women not physically able to carry the woods and light them on fire, and being emotional. You probably didn't summarize it so, but looked from your choice of words that it was unfortunate this became a 'rule' and is not relevant any more. As in general in blogs, i was hoping for more references, but i think it was well written.
i did read it last night. was something about women not physically able to carry the woods and light them on fire, and being emotional. You probably didn't summarize it so, but looked from your choice of words that it was unfortunate this became a 'rule' and is not relevant any more. As in general in blogs, i was hoping for more references, but i think it was well written.
Guest- Guest
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