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Controversies in History: Dating of Tolkappiam

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Controversies in History: Dating of Tolkappiam Empty Controversies in History: Dating of Tolkappiam

Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:51 pm


The dating of the earliest tamil grammatical work Tolkappiam has been debated much and it is still imprecise and uncertain and has seen wide disagreements amongst scholars in the field. It has been dated variously between 8000 BCE and 10th CE...As the Tolkappiyam is often claimed as the earliest extant work of Tamil literature, the dating of Tolkappiam is inherently tied to the dates ascribed to the birth and development of Tamil literature as a whole.

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/05/myth-of-antiquity-of-tamil-language.html#.Tzv-I2A6Jz8

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:
The dating of the earliest tamil grammatical work Tolkappiam has been debated much and it is still imprecise and uncertain and has seen wide disagreements amongst scholars in the field. It has been dated variously between 8000 BCE and 10th CE...As the Tolkappiyam is often claimed as the earliest extant work of Tamil literature, the dating of Tolkappiam is inherently tied to the dates ascribed to the birth and development of Tamil literature as a whole.

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/05/myth-of-antiquity-of-tamil-language.html#.Tzv-I2A6Jz8

When i started reading George Hart's blog i realized that the ideas about tamil vs sanskrit of a few people with who i have discussed this issue are in complete harmony with Hart's, who comes across as highly biased. Here is a sample from Hart:

From the beginning, elegant Tamil has eschewed Sanskrit words and encouraged the use of pure Tamil vocabulary, though of course Tamil has still managed to borrow an enormous number of Sanskrit words (just as Sanskrit has borrowed many Dravidian words). Once, reading a hymn from the Rig Veda, we found that virtually every word is found in modern Tamil...For formal Tamil, one must use words like naṇpaṉ, tūymai, oli, āṇṭu, and these pure Dravidian words impart an elegance that is entirely lacking when Sanskrit words are used.

http://tamil.berkeley.edu/category/blog

What Hart tries to do here is inculcate in a subtle way a contempt for sanskrit when he says that using sanskrit words in tamil diminishes elegance in tamil. Had this really been true, Subramanya Bharati--the greatest tamil poet of 20th century India--would not have used so many sanskrit words in his tamil writings. What Hart wants to do is to continue the hateful purging of words of sanskrit origin from tamil. Secondly, if Hart would have been a genuine scholar he would have given us the specific Rig Vedic Hymn for which he claims almost every word is to be found in modern Tamil. Hart's claim of finding almost all words in a Rig Vedic hymn in modern tamil is pure bunkum--it cannot possibly be true.




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Post by Maria S Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Ayyo Rashmun!

Why this kola veri to make ancient tamil literature/epics controversial!

I can speak on behalf of ALL Tamilians/Tamils and say we will be glad to embrace you as - a new? future? Special Son-in-Law or if you wish Honorary. Son of TamilNadu!

Seriously, speaking for myself..I did not know any Sanskrit (obviously because I am a Christian, Tamilian who was born in the 20th Century..and there was no need to learn Sanskrit)..I was surrounded by plenty of Hindu Tamilians..some who were more familiar with Sanskrit- while there were plenty of Hindus who did not know Sanskrit..but, from what I could see- were very religious am sure worshipped with great reverence.

I did not have any reason to learn Hebrew, Latin, or Aramaic either..to be a Christian..by the time I came along (!)..the Bibles and Christian music - hymns were all in Tamil and English..so religion/religious traditions were evolving/evolved- and translations were/are in abundance..Now I can text or tweet..the Holy scriptures in cute text messages - when I want too..not to mention worship in virtual Churches!

I will certainly acknowledge that there are Hindu Roots in our "common ancestry"- to many of our native traditions..we we also have many "Non-Religious" cultural roots..and even as a believer..think "evolution" is part of how we embrace our religions (the debate about Contraception and Christianity- is one example of it).

*I can certainly bond with Indians-as an Indian..or with Tamilians- as a Tamilian..find much in common we share/can share.
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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Maria S wrote:Ayyo Rashmun!

Why this kola veri to make ancient tamil literature/epics controversial!

I can speak on behalf of ALL Tamilians/Tamils and say we will be glad to embrace you as - a new? future? Special Son-in-Law or if you wish Honorary. Son of TamilNadu!

Seriously, speaking for myself..I did not know any Sanskrit (obviously because I am a Christian, Tamilian who was born in the 20th Century..and there was no need to learn Sanskrit)..I was surrounded by plenty of Hindu Tamilians..some who were more familiar with Sanskrit- while there were plenty of Hindus who did not know Sanskrit..but, from what I could see- were very religious am sure worshipped with great reverence.

I did not have any reason to learn Hebrew, Latin, or Aramaic either..to be a Christian..by the time I came along (!)..the Bibles and Christian music - hymns were all in Tamil and English..so religion/religious traditions were evolving/evolved- and translations were/are in abundance..Now I can text or tweet..the Holy scriptures in cute text messages - when I want too..not to mention worship in virtual Churches!

I will certainly acknowledge that there are Hindu Roots in our "common ancestry"- to many of our native traditions..we we also have many "Non-Religious" cultural roots..and even as a believer..think "evolution" is part of how we embrace our religions (the debate about Contraception and Christianity- is one example of it).

*I can certainly bond with Indians-as an Indian..or with Tamilians- as a Tamilian..find much in common we share/can share.

do tamil christians have their own tamil dialect like tamil brahmins, chettiars, gounders, etc. do? can you tell whether a tamil word is of sanskritic origin?

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Post by Maria S Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:07 pm

Rashmun,

The Tamil dialects of Tamil Christians- are not based on caste, but which region of TN we/they are from..for example, I grew up in Vellore and Chennai..my dialect is quite different from my relatives in Coimbatore, Madurai, Tirunelveli, Nagercoil etc..although I can understand what they are saying and converse with them.

*I would say there are unique phrases Tamil Christians used/still use -related to more traditional upbringing (mostly words with religious references)..For example -when we greet each other, esp-elders we say "thothiram" - which is exactly the same hand gesture used in "Vanakkam/Namaste".Words like Sagoathari/Sagotharan are used more commonly (it's the same as when Christians say in English- Brothers/Sisters) I don't think any Non-Christian Tamilian has called me Sagothari Maria! It's always akka/thangai..have to say-with the younger generations..they hardly use these terms!

As for tamil-sanskritic origins..there is always some debate or controversy going on..in my view, am sure there was a lot of borrowing between languages.

http://aruniyan.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/words-claimed-to-be-sanskrit-origin/

Anyways..Tholkappiam caught my eye.

I will bow out of this thread now Rashmun Smile !
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Post by Kayalvizhi Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:40 pm

Rashmun

You have an anti-Tamil agenda although harmless. I hope you do not run into some of my college mates in one of your trips to my home country.

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:42 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Rashmun

You have an anti-Tamil agenda although harmless. I hope you do not run into some of my college mates in one of your trips to my home country.

On the contrary, i have great love for all tamilians. i am afraid i will not be meeting your college mates any time soon because i have no plans of visiting Sri Lanka in the foreseeable future.

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Post by Kayalvizhi Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:43 pm

>> do tamil christians have their own tamil dialect like tamil brahmins, chettiars, gounders, etc. do? can you tell whether a tamil word is of sanskritic origin?



Maria says "sokothara sakothar". Her neighbors say "annan akka". MGR would say "en raththaththin raththame". I say it "en kuruthiyin kuruthiye". Most are Tamil words. We are Tamils. You are an anti-Tamil trouble maker here although harmless.

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:47 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> do tamil christians have their own tamil dialect like tamil brahmins, chettiars, gounders, etc. do? can you tell whether a tamil word is of sanskritic origin?



Maria says "sokothara sakothar". Her neighbors say "annan akka". MGR would say "en raththaththin raththame". I say it "en kuruthiyin kuruthiye". Most are Tamil words. We are Tamils. You are an anti-Tamil trouble maker here although harmless.

in fact, i have a lot of love for tamil and tamilians. i am only opposed to fanatics.

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Post by Kayalvizhi Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:55 pm

The great Hindu Saivaite prioest Marai Malai Adigal was a strong proponent of pure Tamil and this Hindu priest is considered the father of Pure Tamil movement by some.

I was a good friend of late Kundra Kudi Adigal (another Hindu priest) who also spoke in pure Tamil.



You can read about Maraimalai at

http://www.tamiltribune.com/07/0801.html

Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli writes "

There is a false impression among some Tamil people that Tamil nationalism is opposed to Hinduism. This is far from the truth. Hinduism and Tamil nationalism are not opposing or contradictory philosophies. A Tamil nationalist can be a pious Hindu (or a Muslim or a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist or of whatever religious belief)."

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:The great Hindu Saivaite prioest Marai Malai Adigal was a strong proponent of pure Tamil and this Hindu priest is considered the father of Pure Tamil movement by some.

I was a good friend of late Kundra Kudi Adigal (another Hindu priest) who also spoke in pure Tamil.



You can read about Maraimalai at

http://www.tamiltribune.com/07/0801.html

Dr. Thanjai Nalankilli writes "

There is a false impression among some Tamil people that Tamil nationalism is opposed to Hinduism. This is far from the truth. Hinduism and Tamil nationalism are not opposing or contradictory philosophies. A Tamil nationalist can be a pious Hindu (or a Muslim or a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist or of whatever religious belief)."

--> When tamil hindus die, are the funeral rites held in tamil or in sanskrit?

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Post by Kayalvizhi Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:01 pm

my funeral rite will be in tamil if i am buried in my homeland. if i die as an exile in my adopted country, it would be in English because most of my friend here do not know Tamil

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:04 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:my funeral rite will be in tamil if i am buried in my homeland. if i die as an exile in my adopted country, it would be in English because most of my friend here do not know Tamil

--> you are an exception. When the vast majority of tamilians die, whether in Tamil Nadu or elsewhere, the funeral rites are held in sanskrit.

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:06 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:The great Hindu Saivaite prioest Marai Malai Adigal was a strong proponent of pure Tamil and this Hindu priest is considered the father of Pure Tamil movement by some.

I was a good friend of late Kundra Kudi Adigal (another Hindu priest) who also spoke in pure Tamil.



You can read about Maraimalai at

http://www.tamiltribune.com/07/0801.html


--> Three years ago i had written on Sulekha CH:

Maraimalai Adigal was an ass. The reason he was an ass is that he started indulging in brahmin bashing. Additionally, he was also an ass for trying to purge the tamil language of words of sanskrit origin.

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/nataraj-temple-at-chidambaram-kashmiri-connection-961043.htm

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Post by Kayalvizhi Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:09 pm

>> The reason he was an ass is that he started indulging in brahmin bashing.

When did he do that? I have nothing against Brahmins or Kounders or Nadars or Mudaliars or who ever. I do not divide Tamils by caste or religion.

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Post by Guest Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:26 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> The reason he was an ass is that he started indulging in brahmin bashing.

When did he do that? I have nothing against Brahmins or Kounders or Nadars or Mudaliars or who ever. I do not divide Tamils by caste or religion.

--> try reading this paper:

Vaitheespara,R The Question of Colonialism and Imperialism in Tamil Nationalist Thought: The Case of Maraimalai Adigal (1876-1950) Tamil Studies Conference. Toronto, Canada.

---> here is another paper available online:
http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/departments/history/media/MMAandTamilianCreed.pdf

--> Adigal, it is very clear, had either a very poor understanding about hinduism or else was intellectually dishonest. Adigal's effort at seeking to make Saivism something which has nothing to do with brahmins has to be repudiated. It is nothing but the rants of a misguided fool.

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