A thread about Tamil Nadu

[Guest]

Andal is an iconic figure in Tamil Nadu. Singing of her poems during marriages is considered especially auspicious. It would surely give pride and joy to all tamilians to know that the largest temple in Vrindavan (near where Lord Krishna is said to have been born) is in honor of the same Andal. This, in my opinion, ought to be considered symbolic of the love and respect that the people of Uttar Pradesh have for Tamilians.

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Sri Rangji Mandir

Sri Rangji Mandir is dedicated to Lord Sri Goda-Rangamannar. Goda or Andal as she is popularly known in South India was a famous 8th century Vaishnava saint who had composed "Tiruppuvai" which centers around her love for her beloved Lord Krishna and his leela bhoomi Vrindavan. She pines for him, fasts for him, sings songs in his praise and wants to attain him by marrying him. Lord Ranganatha who is none other than Krishna answers her prayers by becoming her bridegroom. In Sri Rangji Mandir, Lord Krishna is present as the bridegroom with a walking stick in his hand as is the custom in a traditional south Indian marriage. To his right is Andal and to his left Garuda, the vahana of Lord Krishna.

Andal had expressed three wishes in "NachiyarTirumozhi"(143 verses composed by her in praise of Lord Krishna). Her first wish was to spend her life at the feet of Lord Krishna in Vrindavan. Her second wish that Lord Krishna accept her as his bride came true when she married Lord Krishna and the third wish that Lord Ranganatha (Lord Krishna) be offered "Ksheeranna"(dessert made of rice and milk) in a hundred pots was fulfilled by the eleventh century vaishnava saint Sri Ramanujacharya. Her first wish which had not been fulfilled by any of the previous Vaishnava acharyas was fulfilled by Sri Rangadeshik Swamiji by constructing this temple where Sri Goda-Rangamannar reside as divya dampathi (divine couple).

SriRangji temple is one of the largest temple in the whole of North India. Its one of the very few temples in India, where regular festivals are celebrated and all the traditions and rituals are performed according to the prescribed Vedic norms. In SriRangji temple one would find a unique mixture of both south and north Indian traditions. In addition to celebrating all the festivals which are part of South Indian SriVaishnava temple tradition, several festivals which are part of the North tradition are also celebrated here. For example its only at SriRangji temple where devotees can enjoy the pleasure of playing holi with the Lord during SriBrahmotsav.

http://www.srirangjimandir.org/

[Guest]

This is an interesting custom and tradition and it shows that south indian (including tamil) and north indian cultures have grown organically in a synthetic manner (and not in an isolated manner):


For those of us who hail from the south, this pilgrimage begins at Dhanushkodi, the southern tip of India, which is just off Rameshwaram. We collect sand from this holy place and carry it to Kashi, where it is used to make a lingam and prayed to, at the confluence at Prayag, before being immersed in the water. We then worship Lord Vishwanath and return home with pots of the holy water from the Ganga. We then return to Rameshwaram, where we bathe Lord Rameshwar with the sacred Ganga water from Kashi, thus completing the Kashi Yatra.

North Indians, for obviously geographic reasons, complete the same cycle, but in reverse. They first visit Kashi and collect Ganges water, then visit Rameshwaram to do the Abhishek to the deity. They too collect sand from Dhanushkodi, and immerse it at Allahabad on their return. An interesting insight into the complex Indian customs, wouldn't you say?



http://kashiyatra.blogspot.com/?z

[Guest]

When i started reading George Hart's blog i realized that the ideas about tamil vs sanskrit of a few people with who i have discussed this issue are in complete harmony with Hart's, who comes across as highly biased. Here is a sample from Hart:

From the beginning, elegant Tamil has eschewed Sanskrit words and encouraged the use of pure Tamil vocabulary, though of course Tamil has still managed to borrow an enormous number of Sanskrit words (just as Sanskrit has borrowed many Dravidian words). Once, reading a hymn from the Rig Veda, we found that virtually every word is found in modern Tamil...For formal Tamil, one must use words like naṇpaṉ, tūymai, oli, āṇṭu, and these pure Dravidian words impart an elegance that is entirely lacking when Sanskrit words are used.

http://tamil.berkeley.edu/category/blog

What Hart tries to do here is inculcate in a subtle way a contempt for sanskrit when he says that using sanskrit words in tamil diminishes elegance in tamil. Had this really been true, Subramanya Bharati--the greatest tamil poet of 20th century India--would not have used so many sanskrit words in his tamil writings. What Hart wants to do is to continue the hateful purging of words of sanskrit origin from tamil. Secondly, if Hart would have been a genuine scholar he would have given us the specific Rig Vedic Hymn for which he claims almost every word is to be found in modern Tamil. Hart's claim of finding almost all words in a Rig Vedic hymn in modern tamil is pure bunkum--it cannot possibly be true.

Additionally, two other things need to be pointed out. The greatest Tamil writer of 20th century India was Subramanya Bharati and Bharati freely used sanskrit origin words in his tamil writings. It is ridiculous to conceive that George Hart is a better judge of elegant Tamil than Subramanya Bharati. Secondly, the Tamil Brahmin dialect is full of words of sanskrit origin. George Hart is clearly implying that he considers the Brahmin dialect Tamil to be inelegant and inferior. This is why i am saddened when i notice a few Tamil Brahmins swallowing George Hart's ridiculous views without doing any critical analysis.

[Guest]

Granted that Tamil language is ancient and has within it some of the greatest literature of India. But it is ridiculous to compare it to Sanskrit or to claim that it is greater than Sanskrit. Here is why:

All intellectuals from across India were working through the medium of Sanskrit. Even Tamil intellectuals. In contrast, only Tamilians were working in Tamil. Since far fewer people were working through the medium of Tamil, it is natural that there will be far fewer literary works.

Compare also, the Tolkappiam--which is said to contain within it Tamil grammar--with Panini's Ashtadhyayi which contains sanskrit grammar. The only praise i have come across for Tolkappiam from its admirers is words like it is independent, free of any sanskrit influence, etc. Certainly nothing of the order of the praise for Panini's grammar which is said to be the finest grammar book the world has known:

A quote from the Constituent Assembly debate that took place on 12.9.1949 in our Constituent Assembly :-

“The Hon’ble Shri Ghanshyam Singh Gupta - We want to hear your views on Sanskrit.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed – I am extremely thankful to the Hon’ble Member Mr. Gupta. If you have to adopt any language, why should you not have the world’s greatest language? It is today a matter of great regret that we do not know with what reverence Sanskrit is held in the outside world. I shall only quote a few brief remarks made about Sanskrit to show how this language is held in the civilized world. Mr. W.C. Taylor says “Sanskrit is the language of unrivalled richness and purity”.

Mr. President – I would suggest you may leave that question alone, because I propose to call representatives who have given notice of amendments of a fundamental character and I will call upon a gentleman who has given notice about Sanskrit to speak about it.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed – Yes, Sir, I shall not stand in between. I will only give a few quotations. Prof. Max Muller says that “Sanskrit is the greatest language in the world, the most wonderful and the most perfect”. Sir William Jones said “whenever we direct our attention to the Sanskrit Literature the notion of infinity presents itself. Surely the longest life would not suffice for a perusal of works that rise and swell protuberant like the Himalayas above the bulkiest composition of every land beyond the confines of India”. Then Sir W. Hunter says that “the Grammar of Panini stands supreme among the grammars of the world. It stands forth as one of the most splendid achievements of human invention and industry”. Prof. Whitney says “Its unequalled transparency of structure gives it (Sanskrit) undisputable right to the first place amongst the tongues of the Indo-European family”. M. Dukois says “Sanskrit is the origin of the modern languages of Europe”. Prof. Weber says “Panini’s grammar is universally admitted to be the shortest and fullest grammar in the world”. Prof. Wilson says “No nation but the Hindu has yet been able to discover such a perfect system of phonetics”. Prof. Thompson says “The arrangement of consonants in Sanskrit is a unique example of human genius”. Dr. Shahidullah, Professor of Dacca University, who has a world wide reputation as a Sanskrit Scholar, says “Sanskrit is the language of every man to whatever race he may belong”.

An Hon’ble Member – What is your view?

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed – My own view is that it is one of the greatest

languages, and ………………..

An Hon’ble Member – And should it be adopted as the National Language or not? It is not spoken by any one now.

Mr. Naziruddin Ahmed – Yes, and for the simple reason that it is impartially difficult to all. Hindi is easy for the Hindi speaking areas but it is difficult for other areas. I offer you a language which is grandest and greatest, and it is impartially difficult, equally difficult for all to learn. There should be some impartiality in the selection. If we have to adopt a language it must be grand, great and the best. Then why should we discard the claim of Sanskrit?

[Guest]

To continue with the Tolkappiam, the fact as to whether it was influenced by Sanskrit is a moot question. It is unfortunate that Tamil politicians have made the study of the history of Tamil a political issue.

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The Aindra (of Indra) school of Sanskrit grammar is one of the eleven schools of Sanskrit grammar mentioned in Pāṇini's Ashtadhyayi. It is named after Indra in allusion to Lord Indra, the king of Gods in Hindu mythology. Arthur Coke Burnell, a renowned orientologist, in his 1875 book, "On the Aindra school of Sanskrit grammars" details this school. Burnell believed that most non-Pāṇinian systems of Sanskrit grammar were traceable to this school of grammar, believed to be the oldest and reputed to be founded by Indra himself.

Burnell's search for the Aindra school took him to Southern India where he came across the Tamil grammatical work Tolkappiyam. A preface of this work, written during the twelfth century CE by Ilampuranar describes the work as aindiram nirainda Tolkappiyam ('comprising Aindra'). This, Burnell posits is an allusion to the pre-Pāṇinian Aindra school of grammar.
Further, Burnell proceeded to do an exhaustive comparison of the Tokappiyam with two non-Pāṇinian schools of grammar, namely, the Katantra school of Sanskrit grammar and the Kaccayana, a Pali school of Southern India. Based on the comparisons and allowing for divergences due to the structural differences between Tamil and Sanskrit/Pali, Burnell concluded that the Tolkappiyam corresponds to the Katantra school minutely and across the board.
He also demonstrated that many of the technical terms of the Tolkappiyam and of later Tamil grammars were merely simple translations of Sanskrit terms which he attributes to the Aindra school or the other pre-Pāṇinian texts.
While his demonstration of the influence of Sanskrit on the Tolkappiyam has met with some approval, his attribution and approximation of all non Pāṇinian schools of Sanskrit grammar with the Aindra school has met with resistance.[1][2] Some scholars have also taken a less committal line on the question of Sanskrit influence itself.[3]
Having demonstrated the influence of the Katantra school on the grammars of Pali and Tamil and with the help of a linkage to the Aindra school that the Tolkappiyam afforded, Burnell proceeded to show the differences in the technical terms used by the Aindra school and those used by the Pāṇinians.
Burnell's evidences reveals that Tolkappiam is older to Pannini of 4th century B.C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aindra_School_of_Grammar

[Guest]

Granted that Tamil language is ancient and has within it some of the greatest literature of India. But it is ridiculous to compare it to Sanskrit or to claim that it is greater than Sanskrit. Here is why:

All intellectuals from across India were working through the medium of Sanskrit. Even Tamil intellectuals. In contrast, only Tamilians were working in Tamil. Since far fewer people were working through the medium of Tamil, it is natural that there will be far fewer literary works.

Compare also, the Tolkappiam--which is said to contain within it Tamil grammar--with Panini's Ashtadhyayi which contains sanskrit grammar. The only praise i have come across for Tolkappiam from its admirers is words like it is independent, free of any sanskrit influence, etc. Certainly nothing of the order of the praise for Panini's grammar which is said to be the finest grammar book the world has known:

--> Comparing Tolkappiam with Ashtadhyayi is in some sense unfair because Panini had many predecessors whose work on Sanskrit grammar must have helped him formulate the grammar he ultimately gave:

Pāṇini's Ashtadhyayi, which is said to have eclipsed all other contemporary schools of grammar, mentions the names of nine grammarians...Pāṇini's extensive analysis of the processes of phonology, morphology and syntax, the Aṣṭadhyāyī, laid down the basis for centuries of commentaries and expositions by following Sanskrit grammarians. Pāṇini's approach was amazingly formal; his production rules for deriving complex structures and sentences represent modern finite state machines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Sanskrit_grammar

[Guest]

Tamil culture quaffs through the centuries from two sources, one being pan-Indian Sanskrit and the other regional but no less ancient, its brilliant debut the Sangam Corpus: two “classical” languages for a single culture, alternately following the song which has been taken up progressively in the second millennium by other regional, and especially Dravidian, literatures.

Echoes from Kashmir sound in the Tevaram and, if Vaisnavas are divided over the two languages, the songs of the Alvars are accepted unanimously as a Tamil Veda.

The medieval commentators formulated the poetic rules of Tamil literature, sometimes integrating it into the Sanskrit tradition the better to affirm its status. The exploits of the Chola kings are celebrated in inscriptions by both Sanskrit prasasti and Tamil meykkirtti.

A little later, Arunakiri Natar played with equally virtuosity on the verbal register of the two languages, though this game is a tradition practised mainly by a bi-lingual elite. The Buddhists and Jains have their Sanskrit derived source texts in Pali and Ardhamagadhi but it was Tamil they chose for epic masterworks.

Both linguistic registers make their contribution to all technical literature to the extent that it would be possible, seemingly, to attain mastery of the sastra by intensive practice of either one of them.

Two deep currents then have coexisted down the centuries, conscious to be sure of their differences, but never in major conflict.

http://www.ifpindia.org/Relationship-Between-Tamil-and-Sanskrit.html

[Guest]

PUDUCHERRY: “Historically, Tamil and Sanskrit are blended together, they are inseparable. Their growth over the centuries has been natural. Tamil has words from Prakrit, which is a spoken form of Sanskrit. At no point of time has there been a conflict between these two languages,” R. Nagaswamy, former Director of Archaeology, Tamil Nadu, said on Wednesday.

Speaking to The Hindu after presenting a paper on ‘Tamil-Sanskrit relationship from Epigraphs’ at a conference on the ‘Relationship between Tamil and Sanskrit: Affinities and oppositions’ at the French Institute of Pondicherry (IFP), Dr. Nagaswamy said Pallava kings of the North, from the 4th century to the 6th century AD , issued royal orders inscribed on copper plates using both Sanskrit and Tamil.

“In the South, the Pandya rulers issued bilingual royal and administrative orders and judicial pronouncements in excellent poetic Tamil, which even today we don’t see. They also combined Sanskrit and Tamil in their prose,” he added.

The amalgamation of the two languages, he said, was a continuous process. Any attempt to separate the two would be a failure, he said. Dr. Nagaswamy said: “The contribution of Muslims to Sanskrit is equally great and so is the interest shown by Christians of the 18th and 19th century. It is not to be confined to one religion or caste.”

http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/13/stories/2007091350320200.htm

Notice that the wise words of Dr Nagaswamy are at variance with the divisive agenda adopted by George Hart.

[Guest]

The religion of the ancient Tamils closely followed the roots of nature worship and some claim it close to its contemporary in North India, Vedic Hinduism. Tolkappiyam, one of the oldest grammar work in Tamil mentions Kottravai (Mother goddess) Sevvael (Murugan), Thirumaal, Vendhan (Indra) and Varunan .Other ancient works refer to Mayon (Krishna) and Balarama. The influence of Hinduism in Tamil literature rose again during the Bhakti period which documented the people organizing into Saivam(Shiva) and Vaishnavam(Vishnu).
The most popular deity was Murugan, who has from a very early date been identified with Karthikeya, the son of Siva. Muruga might have been a different deity originally stemming from a local deity. According to the noted expert on Tamil culture Kamil V. Zvelebil, "Subrahmanya-Murugan is one of the most complicated and baffling deities for analysis". The later(medieval to present) worship of Amman or Mariamman, thought to have been derived from Kotravai, an ancient mother goddess, also was very common. Kannagi, the heroine of the Cilappatikaram, was worshipped as Pathini by many Tamils, particularly in Sri Lanka. There were also many temples and devotees of Thirumaal, Siva, Ganapathi, and the other common Hindu deities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangam_period

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The mention of Indra and Varuna in the Tolkappiyam means that this book cannot be divorced from Rig Vedic culture. In my humble opinion.

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