In the phylogenetic tree i gave earlier, it is shown that Hindi and Urdu evolved out of Hindustani. But it can be argued that all of these three--Hindustani, Hindi, and Urdu-- are minor variants of the same language and as such should be considered the same language.

-----

Hindi-Urdu, also Hindustani (हिन्दुस्तानी, ہندوستانی, Hindustānī, IPA: [ɦɪ̃n̪d̪ʊsˈt̪aːni], literally: "of Hindustan"),[5] is an Indo-Aryan language and the lingua franca of North India and Pakistan.[6][7] and known historically, as Hindavi or Rekhta. It derives primarily from the Khariboli dialect of Delhi, and incorporates a large amount of vocabulary from Persian, Arabic, Sanskrit and Turkic.[8][9] It is a pluricentric language, with two official forms, Standard Hindi and Standard Urdu,[10] which are standardized registers of it. The colloquial languages are all but indistinguishable, and even the official standards are nearly identical in grammar, though they differ in literary conventions and in academic and technical vocabulary, with Urdu retaining stronger Persian, Central Asian and Arabic influences, and Hindi relying more heavily on Sanskrit.[11][12] Before the Partition of British India, the terms Hindustani, Urdu, and Hindi were synonymous; all covered what would be called Urdu and Hindi today.[13] The term Hindustani is still used for the colloquial language and lingua franca of India and Pakistan, for example for the language of Bollywood films, as well as for several quite different varieties of Hindi spoken outside of the Subcontinent, such as Fijian Hindustani and the Caribbean Hindustani of Suriname and Trinidad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi-Urdu

A phylogenetic tree depicting the possible evolution of various Indo-European languages. As may be seen in the tree, Dakhini is a direct descendant of Urdu if this tree is accurate.



Note: I posted this earlier in the thread and am posting this again because it is important to understand that languages do evolve similar to the way genes evolve. The study of the evolution of languages is a subject of intense study.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

panini press wrote:

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

PP, are you telling us whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer considering that you posted a naxalite song sung by the naxalite poet Gaddar, together with your own english translation? In the anti-Naxalite crackdown carried out by the Nizam were any of your ancestors directly affected?

Ever wondered why Rekha doesn't seem to age that much? The answer is going to surprise you. She was not born to human beings. She was born to Dakhini. Not the rakshasi, no, Dakhini the language. That is how things are if this phylogenetic tree is true.

PS: Rekhta, on the other hand, may be an aging former actor.

panini press wrote:Ever wondered why Rekha doesn't seem to age that much? The answer is going to surprise you. She was not born to human beings. She was born to Dakhini. Not the rakshasi, no, Dakhini the language. That is how things are if this phylogenetic tree is true.

PS: Rekhta, on the other hand, may be an aging former actor.

Rekhta is another variant of hindustani. it is inevitable that a phylogenetic tree incorporating such a large set of languages would have minor inaccuracies or typos.

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

PP, are you telling us whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer considering that you posted a naxalite song sung by the naxalite poet Gaddar, together with your own english translation? In the anti-Naxalite crackdown carried out by the Nizam were any of your ancestors directly affected?

Rashmun, you are confused as usual. The term Naxalite originates from Communist violence in West Bengal in 1967. The song I posted is from 1947-'48, almost twenty years before Naxalism came into being. The Nizam did not carry out an anti-Naxalite crackdown; he carried out Aurangzeb-style persecution.

Dakhini, though built on a base of Khadi Boli, when at it's full glory, influenced the development of Urdu or Hindusthani (also known as Hindavi or Rekhta).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakhini

-----

Rekhta (Urdu: ریختہ‎, Hindi: रेख़्ता rekhtā, Persian: ریخته‎ "poured" or "molded", symbolizing the mixture of Hindi-Urdu, Persian, and Arabic) was the Persianized form of Urdu based on Khariboli dialect of Hindi now known by the names "Hindustani", "Hindi", and "Urdu", although Rekhta is now almost synonymous with Urdu, as its poetry is still used and made today by Urdu speakers.[1] From the late 17th century till the closing decades of the 18th century, the term was used for the Hindustani language. It was largely supplanted by the name Hindwi / Hindavi and later Hindustani and Urdu, though it continued to be used sporadically until the late 19th century.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekhta

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

PP, are you telling us whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer considering that you posted a naxalite song sung by the naxalite poet Gaddar, together with your own english translation? In the anti-Naxalite crackdown carried out by the Nizam were any of your ancestors directly affected?

BTW, now that I have cleared up your confusion regarding Naxalites, feel free to respond regarding the terms of your alliance. Is it just mutual defense? Or are access rights included one way or the other?

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

PP, are you telling us whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer considering that you posted a naxalite song sung by the naxalite poet Gaddar, together with your own english translation? In the anti-Naxalite crackdown carried out by the Nizam were any of your ancestors directly affected?

Rashmun, you are confused as usual. The term Naxalite originates from Communist violence in West Bengal in 1967. The song I posted is from 1947-'48, almost twenty years before Naxalism came into being. The Nizam did not carry out an anti-Naxalite crackdown; he carried out Aurangzeb-style persecution.

In fact it is you who is confused about the history of your own state. The Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists who were trying to impede the growth of industry in the state of Hyderabad. Naxalites is just another term used for the communists in telangana as of today. Strictly speaking the Nizam persecuted the intellectual forefathers of a section of the idiots inhabiting AP (and this includes the naxalite poet Gaddar whose name means 'traitor' whose poetry you were happily posting along with your own english translation earlier).

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:I completely agree.

panini press wrote:Haha, true.

pressulu, that's a lot of agreement, from a person known for disagreements. t. vijayendra? dude, the next time, invent a more interesting name.

LOVVUji, talking about interesting things, what are the terms of the alliance between the Most Interesting Men of SuCH? Is it just a treaty of mutual defense, or does it include any access rights?

PP, are you telling us whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer considering that you posted a naxalite song sung by the naxalite poet Gaddar, together with your own english translation? In the anti-Naxalite crackdown carried out by the Nizam were any of your ancestors directly affected?

BTW, now that I have cleared up your confusion regarding Naxalites, feel free to respond regarding the terms of your alliance. Is it just mutual defense? Or are access rights included one way or the other?

But you have not yet clarified whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer? If your answer is No you are not then what were you doing posting the communist poetry of the naxalite poet Gaddar ('traitor') along with your own english translation?

Rashmun wrote:In fact it is you who is confused about the history of your own state. The Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists who were trying to impede the growth of industry in the state of Hyderabad. Naxalites is just another term used for the communists in telangana as of today. Strictly speaking the Nizam persecuted the intellectual forefathers of a section of the idiots inhabiting AP (and this includes the naxalite poet Gaddar whose name means 'traitor' whose poetry you were happily posting along with your own english translation earlier).

Completely wrong as usual. Befitting the title of this thread!

I know you are obsessed with the Nizam, so you can believe whatever you want to believe about him. I have no interest in talking about him right now.

Rashmun wrote:But you have not yet clarified whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer? If your answer is No you are not then what were you doing posting the communist poetry of the naxalite poet Gaddar ('traitor') along with your own english translation?

Here is another thing you are confused about. The song I posted is not Gaddar's poetry. Gaddar was probably not even born when that song was written. When someone translates poetry, they don't translate the singer, they translate the words. Hope that helps.

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:In fact it is you who is confused about the history of your own state. The Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists who were trying to impede the growth of industry in the state of Hyderabad. Naxalites is just another term used for the communists in telangana as of today. Strictly speaking the Nizam persecuted the intellectual forefathers of a section of the idiots inhabiting AP (and this includes the naxalite poet Gaddar whose name means 'traitor' whose poetry you were happily posting along with your own english translation earlier).

Completely wrong as usual. Befitting the title of this thread!

I know you are obsessed with the Nizam, so you can believe whatever you want to believe about him. I have no interest in talking about him right now.

Completely wrong about what? About the fact that the Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists? Will you promise to call me 'Master' henceforth if i present you evidence to support my claim?

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:But you have not yet clarified whether you are a naxalite or a naxalite sympathizer? If your answer is No you are not then what were you doing posting the communist poetry of the naxalite poet Gaddar ('traitor') along with your own english translation?

Here is another thing you are confused about. The song I posted is not Gaddar's poetry. Gaddar was probably not even born when that song was written. When someone translates poetry, they don't translate the singer, they translate the words. Hope that helps.

Doesn't matter if its not his own poetry. Its a communist song and Gaddar (meaning 'traitor') is a communist. What were you doing posting the lyrics of this communist song?

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:In fact it is you who is confused about the history of your own state. The Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists who were trying to impede the growth of industry in the state of Hyderabad. Naxalites is just another term used for the communists in telangana as of today. Strictly speaking the Nizam persecuted the intellectual forefathers of a section of the idiots inhabiting AP (and this includes the naxalite poet Gaddar whose name means 'traitor' whose poetry you were happily posting along with your own english translation earlier).

Completely wrong as usual. Befitting the title of this thread!

I know you are obsessed with the Nizam, so you can believe whatever you want to believe about him. I have no interest in talking about him right now.

Completely wrong about what? About the fact that the Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists? Will you promise to call me 'Master' henceforth if i present you evidence to support my claim?

Hahahaha. I will call you 'Master' henceforth regardless. 'Master' Rashmun!

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:In fact it is you who is confused about the history of your own state. The Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists who were trying to impede the growth of industry in the state of Hyderabad. Naxalites is just another term used for the communists in telangana as of today. Strictly speaking the Nizam persecuted the intellectual forefathers of a section of the idiots inhabiting AP (and this includes the naxalite poet Gaddar whose name means 'traitor' whose poetry you were happily posting along with your own english translation earlier).

Completely wrong as usual. Befitting the title of this thread!

I know you are obsessed with the Nizam, so you can believe whatever you want to believe about him. I have no interest in talking about him right now.

Completely wrong about what? About the fact that the Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists? Will you promise to call me 'Master' henceforth if i present you evidence to support my claim?

Hahahaha. I will call you 'Master' henceforth regardless. 'Master' Rashmun!

Considering your love for communists, do u want me to call you Comerade PP in return?

You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

panini press wrote:You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

OK, 'Master' Rashmun! Does that make you feel important? Powerful? Like you bettered me in an argument?

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

OK, 'Master' Rashmun! Does that make you feel important? Powerful? Like you bettered me in an argument?

OK now to get back to the argument: Do you consider yourself a communist? If yes it would explain why you hate the nizam. Since the nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists. It would also explain why you posted the communist song (together with your own english translation) sung by the naxalite Gaddar.

Rashmun wrote:Dakhini, though built on a base of Khadi Boli, when at it's full glory, influenced the development of Urdu or Hindusthani (also known as Hindavi or Rekhta).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakhini

-----

Rekhta (Urdu: ریختہ‎, Hindi: रेख़्ता rekhtā, Persian: ریخته‎ "poured" or "molded", symbolizing the mixture of Hindi-Urdu, Persian, and Arabic) was the Persianized form of Urdu based on Khariboli dialect of Hindi now known by the names "Hindustani", "Hindi", and "Urdu", although Rekhta is now almost synonymous with Urdu, as its poetry is still used and made today by Urdu speakers.[1] From the late 17th century till the closing decades of the 18th century, the term was used for the Hindustani language. It was largely supplanted by the name Hindwi / Hindavi and later Hindustani and Urdu, though it continued to be used sporadically until the late 19th century.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekhta

aren't persian, old avestan and vedic sanskrit descended from the same root? if so, then urdu and hindi while they may have had separate evolutions can ultimately be traced back to the same root.

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

OK, 'Master' Rashmun! Does that make you feel important? Powerful? Like you bettered me in an argument?

OK now to get back to the argument:

No, 'Master' Rashmun. What are you going to do if I don't? Will it make you feel less powerful, 'Master' Rashmun?

PS: Your "argument" on this thread died an ignominious death way back in the spring of 2012. Your attempts to revive it died yesterday when the person who wrote one of your referred articles told you that "the title is not correct." Less 'masterful' people would have moved on a long time ago. I bow to you, 'Master' Rashmun!

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Dakhini, though built on a base of Khadi Boli, when at it's full glory, influenced the development of Urdu or Hindusthani (also known as Hindavi or Rekhta).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakhini

-----

Rekhta (Urdu: ریختہ‎, Hindi: रेख़्ता rekhtā, Persian: ریخته‎ "poured" or "molded", symbolizing the mixture of Hindi-Urdu, Persian, and Arabic) was the Persianized form of Urdu based on Khariboli dialect of Hindi now known by the names "Hindustani", "Hindi", and "Urdu", although Rekhta is now almost synonymous with Urdu, as its poetry is still used and made today by Urdu speakers.[1] From the late 17th century till the closing decades of the 18th century, the term was used for the Hindustani language. It was largely supplanted by the name Hindwi / Hindavi and later Hindustani and Urdu, though it continued to be used sporadically until the late 19th century.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekhta

aren't persian, old avestan and vedic sanskrit descended from the same root? if so, then urdu and hindi while they may have had separate evolutions can ultimately be traced back to the same root.

that would be correct. there would be a hypothetical ancestral language (now extinct) for all the existing indo-european languages.

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:You can call me whatever you want to call me. It makes no difference to me. But I am going to make you happy by calling you 'Master', 'Master' Rashmun!

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

OK, 'Master' Rashmun! Does that make you feel important? Powerful? Like you bettered me in an argument?

OK now to get back to the argument:

No, 'Master' Rashmun. What are you going to do if I don't? Will it make you feel less powerful, 'Master' Rashmun?

PS: Your "argument" on this thread died an ignominious death way back in the spring of 2012. Your attempts to revive it died yesterday when the person who wrote one of your referred articles told you that "the title is not correct." Less 'masterful' people would have moved on a long time ago. I bow to you, 'Master' Rashmun!

Hahaha. Commie Charvaka now wants to run away from the fact that he posted a communist song sung by the communist Gaddar, together with his own translation of the song. The commie no longer wants to argue over the fact that the Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists.

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

panini press wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

That's fine. You can be my Slave then.

OK, 'Master' Rashmun! Does that make you feel important? Powerful? Like you bettered me in an argument?

OK now to get back to the argument:

No, 'Master' Rashmun. What are you going to do if I don't? Will it make you feel less powerful, 'Master' Rashmun?

PS: Your "argument" on this thread died an ignominious death way back in the spring of 2012. Your attempts to revive it died yesterday when the person who wrote one of your referred articles told you that "the title is not correct." Less 'masterful' people would have moved on a long time ago. I bow to you, 'Master' Rashmun!

Hahaha. Commie Charvaka now wants to run away from the fact that he posted a communist song sung by the communist Gaddar, together with his own translation of the song. The commie no longer wants to argue over the fact that the Nizam persecuted trade union activists and assorted communists.

Whatever you say, 'Master'. Keep going, 'Master!'

The Hyderabad State ruled by the Nizam was one of the first Native States of pre-independent India to witness industrialisation of some sort. It was also perhaps the first Native State to witness the formation of openly communist groups, the first of which was named Comrades Association and formed in 1938. Most of the time activists of these groups had to remain underground and all suspected communist activity was quickly banned and persecuted. But many of these early communists managed to establish contacts with workers in the different industries and services of the State and formed Trade Unions in many of them.

Those industries and services that had Trade Unions before the merger of the Hyderabad State with the Indian Union are listed in the table below.

The various trade unions of the city were organised into one body – the All Hyderabad Trade Union Congress which was affiliated to the All India Trade Union Congress (AITUC). The revolutionary poet, Makhdoom Mohiuddin, was its first president and Raj Bahadur Gour was its first general secretary. They, along with Linga Reddy, Lakshmi Das, Sanamurthy, Parsa Satyanarayana, T.V. Vitthal, Syed Kasim, Devraj, Jawad Rizwi, Alam Khundmiri and others, formed the core of the communist led trade union movement in Hyderabad State. After the “Police Action”, which led to the integration of Nizam’s territories with the rest of India, the Communist Party of India (CPI) went underground for some time and so did almost all the trade union leaders mentioned above.

It was at this time that the communists lost control of many of these unions, which eventually came under the sway of the Indian National Trade Union Congress (INTUC) and the Hind Mazdoor Sabha (HMS), both of which were formed in the Hyderabad State areas after the Police Action. It appears that in the pre-independence era, only the AITUC was active.

There was no law about industrial disputes and their resolution in Hyderabad State. There was only something of an Industrial Disputes Order by the Nizam, which specifically prohibited trade unions. Whenever trade union leaders went to meet the labour officer, he would refuse to recognise their right to represent the workers. This made it near impossible to organise negotiations with the employers or the government. This non-recognition of trade unions also seems to have been the primary cause for the absence of any other workers’ organisation, apart from the communist led ones. On the other hand, this policy did not allow the State or the owners to play one trade union against the other, which became very common after Independence, when INTUC and HMS affiliated trade unions emerged in almost all the industries listed in the table below.

Trade union activity was very difficult during the Nizam’s time. Frequent arrests, torture, externment from Nizam’s territories and various other forms of unofficial harassment were common and it was almost impossible to organise strikes. The most frequent methods of mobilising and showing workers opinions were mass representations to the authorities and owners, and sometimes there were public gatherings, rallies and demonstrations. These were, almost without exception, dealt with severely by the Nizam’s police which sought to crush any open collective activity by the workers. Therefore, the trade union activists gave a lot of importance to individual meetings with workers, political education through meetings in small groups and other campaigns which were often semi-secret. Not many written documents were kept and those that existed were often confiscated and destroyed in the frequent arrests, searches and confiscations by the police.

http://leftwrite.wordpress.com/2010/02/04/history-of-trade-unions-in-the-erstwhile-hyderabad-state/

Rashmun

I am aware of this kind of classification. It is highly disputed these days. But then you will have to enter into lot of linguistics and you may not have time or interest. So just treat my views as another view. We are not here to score points but to learn.

Panini Press

Link language

In public when strangers meet, they try to understand each other and often use a mix. One person may speak in Marathi and he may get a reply in Hindi or Dakhni. As Dakhni is understood in most of Deccan urban areas (read as taluk level towns, market place etc.) it often acts as link language. But as Rashmun found it Hindi is also used. In Bidar I used Hindi, Marathi and Kannada. Both my Marathi and Kannada were different from local Marathi (Marathwada) and Kannada (Bidar Kannada). People spoke Dakhni or used a lot of Dakhni words in the languages they spoke and I picked up to understand it fully. In places like Aurad, people began a sentence in Marathi and ended it in Kannada. Bidar is a classic multilingual place. Around the Gurudwara you can hear Panjabi mixed with Dakhni. When asked 'What is the next bus to Hyderabad?' you can get a reply. 'Yavadu bi ledu' - a mix of Kannada, Dakhni and Telugu.

IIT - I was in RP

MaxEntropy_Man and Rashmun

This business of root language. There is an alternative view. I expressed it in my article,'Sanskrit and Indian language families'.

panini press wrote:Welcome to SuCH, Mr. Vijayendra. I am glad you are posting your views here. Please do not take every poster here (including me) too seriously. This place can sometimes be a zoo. BTW, I posted as charvaka earlier in this thread.

Mr. Vijayendra, I am sure, has recognized the talents of extremely brilliant CH scholars.