Influence of sanskrit over Tamil – breaking the dravidian racism





Posted on July 6, 2010


I had a debate in this blog post of sukumar
about the world tamil conference and parpola’s paper on Dravidian roots
to IVC (which is also called Saraswathi Civilization). I argued that
Tholkappiar, who wrote the first known tamil grammar book called
“Tholkappiam”, himself is a brahmin, and this fact is often concealed or
suppressed in various forums. Sukumar had challenged me to give a
proof that tholkappiar was a brahmin, and while sourcing information for
this, i happened to learn many things, which i want to consolidate in
this post.

Preface poem in Tholkappiam book:

The whole book of tholkappiam can be downloded from Project Madurai website.

I am reproducing the preface of this book..

வட வேங்கடம் தென் குமரி
ஆயிடைத்
தமிழ் கூறும் நல் உலகத்து
வழக்கும் செய்யுளும் ஆயிரு முதலின்
எழுத்தும் சொல்லும் பொருளும் நாடிச்
செந்தமிழ் இயற்கை சிவணிய நிலத்தொடு
முந்து நூல் கண்டு முறைப்பட எண்ணிப்
புலம் தொகுத்தோனே போக்கு அறு பனுவல்
நிலம் தரு திருவின் பாண்டியன் அவையத்து
அறம் கரை நாவின் நான்மறை முற்றிய‌
அதங்கோட்டு ஆசாற்கு அரில் தபத் தெரிந்து
மயங்கா மரபின் எழுத்து முறை காட்டி
மல்கு நீர் வரைப்பின் ஐந்திரம் நிறைந்த‌
தொல்காப்பியன் எனத் தன் பெயர் தோற்றிப்
பல் புகழ் நிறுத்த படிமையோனே..

I am listing out the following inferences that we can make.

முந்து நூல் கண்டு முறைப்பட எண்ணிப் –> This line
indicates, that tholkappiam is NOT the first tamil grammar book.
Tholkappiar says, that he is wanting to refining an already existing
grammar book.

நிலம் தரு திருவின் பாண்டியன் அவையத்து
அறம் கரை நாவின் நான்மறை முற்றிய‌
அதங்கோட்டு ஆசாற்கு அரில் தபத் தெரிந்து

the mention of vedas.. i think tholkappiar mentions about his guru in pandian court, who is a learned men of all four vedas..

மல்கு நீர் வரைப்பின் ஐந்திரம் நிறைந்த‌
தொல்காப்பியன் எனத் தன் பெயர் தோற்றிப்

Here, the word ஐந்திரம் indicates the Aindram School of Sanskrit grammar, which is the first of the eleven sanskrit schools of grammar. All these grammars had preceded Panini’s grammar, and is mentioned by himself in his work Ashtadhyayi.

The following are the conclusions that we can make.

• Tholkappiar knew about vedas.
  
• Tholkappiar could have learned about aindram school of grammar.
  
• Tholkappiar’s guru is a scholar of four vedas, and hence Tholkappiar should have learned vedas.
  
• Tholkappiar should be a brahmana, since he learnt vedas.
  
• A vedic brahmana had written grammar for Tamil, which is used till now.
  
• Tamil had extensive relation with Sanskrit.
  
• Since Tholkappiar mentions about Aindram school of grammar, he might
  have lived much before Panini, who wrote modern sanskrit grammar.
  
• Grammars of Modern sanskrit and Tamil might have evolved from a
  common school of grammar. This doesnt mean, tamil is derived from
  sanskrit. Rather, the grammatical concepts might have been sourced from
  the common school and the scripts might have been independant.
  

There can be many other inferences that we can make. But let me move on.

The website of tamil Virtual University
mentions the name of tholkappiar as ThiranaDhoomaggini (திரணதூமாக்கினி)
and tamil translation of this name comes to “Pulathiyan” (புலத்தியன்).

Tholkappiyam mentions about loaning words from Sanskrit:

While i was randomly going through the original tholkappiyam book, i
came across the lines, where it is mentioned that words can be borrowed
from sanskrit for the literary poems.

In page# 63 of the tolkappian book referred in previous comment, the following lines appear under topic எச்சவியல்..

இயற்சொல் திரிசொல் திசைச்சொல் வடசொல் என்று
அனைத்தே செய்யுள் ஈட்டச் சொல்லே..

If my understanding is correct, tolkappiar says, words borrowed from
sanskrit (வடசொல்), can also be used in composing the poems..

If we scroll Further, the following lines is seen which mentions about how Sanskrit words can be used.

வடசொல் கிளவி வட எழுத்து ஒரீஇ
எழுத்தொடு புணர்ந்த சொல் ஆகும்மே – pg-64

This contradicts the popular racial tamil theory propagated by
Dravidar Kalagam and particularly by Dr. Ramdass of PMK, who attempts to
create new tamil word for every foreign words. For eg, they are
attempting to create a word “vazhuval katti” for soap, which is horrible
one. The niceties of the tamil words in sanga poetry is lost with such
attempts. We have to realise that it is the racial western society
which believes in the linguistic exclusive concept, and many indic
languages have mutual influences over words.

Further, in the same book, tholkappiar also details about the other
three types of words that he says can be incorporated in the Poems.

அவற்றுள்
இயற்சொல்தாமே
செந்தமிழ் நிலத்து வழக்கொடு சிவணி
தம் பொருள் வழாமை இசைக்கும் சொல்லே..

ஒரு பொருள் குறித்த வேறு சொல் ஆகியும்
வேறு பொருள் குறித்த ஒரு சொல் ஆகியிம்
இரு பாற்று என்ப திரிசொல் கிளவி

செந்தமிழ் சேர்ந்த பன்னிரு நிலத்தும்
தம் குறிப்பனவே திசைச்சொல் கிளவி

So, there is a always a relation b/w tamil and sanskrit even before sangha period, and the relationship is indeed healthy. More importantly, we could not find anything racial tone in all these references.

There is no mention of Aryan imposition over tamil or any reference to dravidian exclusivism.

Other Sanskrit words widely in tamil:

The tamil – sanskrit linkages has been further understood from the following sanskrit words in tamil.

• Tolkappiam is divided in three books. – ezhuthathikaram (
  எழுத்ததிகாரம்) , porulathikaram (பொருளதிகாரம்) and sollathikaram
  (சொல்லதிகாரம் ) .. here the word “athikaram” is a sanskrit word.
  
• The word “kaappiyam” (காப்பியம்) itself is from the sanskrit word “kaavya” ..
  
• We often use the word “Sanga Tamil”.. however, the term “sangha” itself
  is a prakrutha word.. meaning assembly.. for eg, in budhist history,
  they have established baudha sangha at various places to promote budhism
  
• The word “kathai” (கதை) is a sanskrit word “Katha”
  
• The word kalai (கலை) from the sanskrit word “Kala”
  
• manithan (மனிதன்) from “manushya”
  
• the word “aasaan” has no tamil equivalent.
  

We can list out so many such sanskrit words which has been used
widely in tamil, for which we dont have any equivalent tamil word.

Conclusion:

The very fundamentals of Dravidian Ideology could be shaken from the
simple truth that tholkappiar has been a Brahmin who knew veda, and who
knew aindram school of grammar. So what could be the fact?

Tamil might have evolved independantly. And at the same time, the
concept of grammar has been simultaneously evolving with various schools
of grammar being established. Tamil could have very well utilised
these advancements to finetune itself. The tamil kings would have
invited those grammarian scholars to either create grammar for tamil, or
to refine an already evolving tamil grammar, as we could see in
tholkappiam, where tholkappiar says he wanted to improve an already
existing book.

The truth may be anything, but we can identify it only when we free from the narrow racial ideology of aryan – dravidian divide.

What do you think? Please share your thoughts, and also any mistakes in this post.
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/

i think you are desperate and i think i inadvertently needled you with my post this morning causing yet another round of cut-and-paste vomitus. this is now unfortunately for you an incurable disease. you are trying to prove a statement nobody here disagrees with, namely, that sanskrit has influenced tamil and other indian languages. there are far more interesting questions in indian lingustics to ponder than this rather uninteresting and obvious one.

are you able to read directly what is in tamil script in your cut-and-paste vomitus above? interestingly the tamil word vAnthi and vomit are from the same root.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i think you are desperate and i think i inadvertently needled you with my post this morning causing yet another round of cut-and-paste vomitus. this is now unfortunately for you an incurable disease. you are trying to prove a statement nobody here disagrees with, namely, that sanskrit has influenced tamil and other indian languages. there are far more interesting questions in indian lingustics to ponder than this rather uninteresting and obvious one.

are you able to read directly what is in tamil script in your cut-and-paste vomitus above? interestingly the tamil word vAnthi and vomit are from the same root.

there are some interesting points in that blog; some of them are:
1. there is reference to the Aindram school of sanskrit grammar in the Tholkappiam.
2. The writer of Tholkappiam was a brahmin. (dravidian movement, which targeted brahmins, needs to be ashamed for itself for targeting a community which did so much for tamil language to the extent that the book on tamil grammar is by a brahmin.)
3. Tholkappiam says that sanskrit words can be freely used in literary tamil. This contravenes the thinking of many dravidianists who try to coin a new tamil word to replace any non-tamil word. For instance, the writer of Tholkappiam would have probably frowned upon the coinage of a new tamil word 'vazhuval katti', by a few language bigots, for soap. Which leads me to the question--what do you call 'soap' in tamil? It is called 'sAbun' in hindi.

i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i think you are desperate and i think i inadvertently needled you with my post this morning causing yet another round of cut-and-paste vomitus. this is now unfortunately for you an incurable disease. you are trying to prove a statement nobody here disagrees with, namely, that sanskrit has influenced tamil and other indian languages. there are far more interesting questions in indian lingustics to ponder than this rather uninteresting and obvious one.

are you able to read directly what is in tamil script in your cut-and-paste vomitus above? interestingly the tamil word vAnthi and vomit are from the same root.

there are some interesting points in that blog; some of them are:
1. there is reference to the Aindram school of sanskrit grammar in the Tholkappiam.
2. The writer of Tholkappiam was a brahmin. (dravidian movement, which targeted brahmins, needs to be ashamed for itself for targeting a community which did so much for tamil language to the extent that the book on tamil grammar is by a brahmin.)
3. Tholkappiam says that sanskrit words can be freely used in literary tamil. This contravenes the thinking of many dravidianists who try to coin a new tamil word to replace any non-tamil word. For instance, the writer of Tholkappiam would have probably frowned upon the coinage of a new tamil word 'vazhuval katti', by a few language bigots, for soap. Which leads me to the question--what do you call 'soap' in tamil? It is called 'sAbun' in hindi.

4. There is a reference to the Vedas in the Tholkappiam.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

i deplore this practice of eschewing sanskrit words in literary tamil. it is similar to the practice of eschewing words of persian origin in hindi and substituting them with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. As far as possible, literary hindi or literary tamil should reflect the understanding and usage of the language by the common man.

let me add that any sanskritic word and its cognates in indian languages should be subjected to a rigorous examination of whether it was obtained from a proto-dravidian source IF an etymological similarity in other IE languages cannot be found. this is one way to make progress in indian comparative lingustics. this is my current evolving thinking.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

i deplore this practice of eschewing sanskrit words in literary tamil. it is similar to the practice of eschewing words of persian origin in hindi and substituting them with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. As far as possible, literary hindi or literary tamil should reflect the understanding and usage of the language by the common man.

you can deplore all you want and we can argue till the cows come home. the flip side and the damage that is wrought if we don't do that is losing our linguistic heritage. like i said it is a balance that we are comfortable with. i don't see what business it is of yours.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

i deplore this practice of eschewing sanskrit words in literary tamil. it is similar to the practice of eschewing words of persian origin in hindi and substituting them with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. As far as possible, literary hindi or literary tamil should reflect the understanding and usage of the language by the common man.

you can deplore all you want and we can argue till the cows come home. the flip side and the damage that is wrought if we don't do that is losing our linguistic heritage. like i said it is a balance that we are comfortable with. i don't see what business it is of yours.

i will just point out that Subramanya Bharati is with me on this point.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

i deplore this practice of eschewing sanskrit words in literary tamil. it is similar to the practice of eschewing words of persian origin in hindi and substituting them with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. As far as possible, literary hindi or literary tamil should reflect the understanding and usage of the language by the common man.

you can deplore all you want and we can argue till the cows come home. the flip side and the damage that is wrought if we don't do that is losing our linguistic heritage. like i said it is a balance that we are comfortable with. i don't see what business it is of yours.

i will just point out that Subramanya Bharati is with me on this point.

it is true that he used a very sanskritized style in his poetry, but has he explicitly stated somewhere that he is opposed to the practice of reverting to a dravidian-sourced word when one is available? i don't think bharathi spent much time thinking about this question. he was occupied much more with the social questions of the day and giving the finger to the british. linguistics and the preservation of tamil's linguistic heritage did not much interest him.

Rashmun.

Your blogger lists several words in Tamil and Sanskrit which sound similar and concludes Tamil borrowed them from Sanskrit. Do you understand the illogic of it? Ansswr YES or NO.

let me ask you again, are you able to read the tamil script in your cut-and-paste vomitus from the first post?

Kayalvizhi wrote:Rashmun.

Your blogger lists several words in Tamil and Sanskrit which sound similar and concludes Tamil borrowed them from Sanskrit. Do you understand the illogic of it? Ansswr YES or NO.

which is why i wrote this.

>> we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists.



Max. where did you go to school. It did not happen in my school. Also when I pointed out to my college lecturer that he is using English initials in his name instead of Tamil, he scolded me that I am a fanatic.

Kayalvizhi wrote:>> we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists.


Max. where did you go to school. It did not happen in my school. Also when I pointed out to my college lecturer that he is using English initials in his name instead of Tamil, he scolded me that I am a fanatic.

mostly in kAnchipuram and chennai. i was taught by very good tamil teachers all my school life. they were THE best. i always looked forward to tamil class with as much anticipation as the math class.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:let me ask you again, are you able to read the tamil script in your cut-and-paste vomitus from the first post?

i am not, but i see your point.

----

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't think it is necessary to coin new words constantly, but when there is an existing word available which has gone into disuse i prefer resurrecting it instead of continuing to use a sanskritic-based word. i'll give you an example. the colloquial word for blood in tamil is raththam which has a crying-out-loud sanskritic root. but in formal writing kuruthi is preferred which is almost certainly of dravidian origin. in fact this is what we were taught in school. we'd get points dinged whenever we used a sanskritic word if an alternative tamil word exists. this is not dissimilar to what the french do. and it's a good balance between preserving linguistic heritage and doing the practical thing. it's our language; you should let us do what we feel is best.

the word for soap in tamil as far as i can recall is sOppukkatti. that's an instance of accepting a word from another language and internalizing it without changing it.

eta: you didn't answer my q. are you able to read what is in tamil script in the vomitus that is your first post?

i deplore this practice of eschewing sanskrit words in literary tamil. it is similar to the practice of eschewing words of persian origin in hindi and substituting them with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. As far as possible, literary hindi or literary tamil should reflect the understanding and usage of the language by the common man.

in my opinion, the practice of eschewing commonly used words of sanskrit origin and replacing them with esoteric words of tamil origin in literary tamil will make literary tamil divorced from the understanding and usage of the language by the common man. the language will become more and more elitist.

Rashmun.

Your blogger says that the word "sangam" in from Sanskrit. I agree. What he did not say or did not know is that the word sangam is not found it Tholkaappiam or any work of the Third Tamil Acadewmy. The word sangam appears in Tamil literature for the first time in the 7th century. By now Sanskrit has entered TN in full force possibly during the rule of KaLappirar.